Savage failing to make groups

Here's what you need to do....

Go to a good range. I'm not talkin the local spray and pray joint but a good rifle range. Iszak Waltons or the like can be pretty down to earth. Now when you go, dress the part. Put your hat on the right way, wear pants that fit, have no holes and a belt. Leave the beer t-shirts at home and if your underwear shows give it up. When you get there do a lot of looking around, talk to people and ask advice. Tell them you are new and have them check your scope and gun. Have them watch you shoot or have them shoot your gun. Before long you will have all the answers you need. Or you could just go back to playing COD.
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Nothing like stereotyping a guy with legitimate questions regarding firearms...

SHEESH!!! The mods should delete your post as it adds no value to the topic at hand and only makes you look like a typical profiler always putting others down that don't dress or act the same as you.

I could care less how someone dresses when they are at the range so long as they know how to safely operate their firearm.
 
LK,
You're right. It's not my rifle or me, it's what I wear. All the holey jeans and Keystone t-shirts. That's definitely it. I'm not following what you're saying about CoD..that taught me everything I know. It's just point and pull the trigger right? I thought it was realistic, that's what war is really like right? I get unlimited respawns in real life too? And yes, I should definitely drive all the way over to California for the nearest IWLA Chapter, cause that's going to be cost effective. Thank you for your overwhelmingly good advice. You're obviously someone who inspires confidence and awe everywhere you go. Thank you for helping me out with a problem in which I have no experience, I never thought that if I have my pants around my knees it's going to throw off my shooting capabilities. You have been so helpful, thank you for showing me exactly how not to help someone new in the future. I'm glad you graciously supplied me with a model of who not emulate. You're a public servant LK, thanks for all you do in helping people understand their firearms more.
 
Ike and Doyle, thanks for the save, haha I definitely would not have checked the lbs per inches and would've been disappointed when I got home. A buddy has one I'll borrow. I don't really have the $50 one now. Gotta save money for the actual shooting trip ha. thanks for your help guys.
 
NaCl Assassin:

Your problem puzzels me because Savage and Leupold produce accurate products. In my opinion Leupold makes the best scopes in the wrold. Remington and Winchester produce accurate ammunition. Combining the rifles, ammunition, and scopes in any order wouldn't produce two feet groups at a hundred yards. Check and make sure that you're not flinching then talk to Savage and Leupold. Neither company wants defective products in their customer's hands.

Semper Fi.

Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
 
Like it or not, my advice was 100% spot on. Doing what I said is your best bet for finding the answers you seek. All the talk of scope bases, torque wrenches, changing ammo, cleaning, etc is absolutely pointless and will not solve the issues you are having. Finding ONE bolt action, even a military leftover with a shot out rusted barrel, that will only shoot 2 foot groups at 200 yards is next to impossible let alone TWO BRAND NEW SAVAGE rifles wearing 2 different scopes. Like I said in my first post, it's not the guns. So it really only leaves about 3 possibilities:

1) You have 2 guys that don't know how to mount a scope.
2) They are using the wrong ammo. Not cheap ammo or the wrong weight bullet but the wrong ammo. Like using .25-06 ammo in the .30-06.
3) They can't shoot to save their lives.

Or any combination of those. Sorry if it's hard to swallow but that's the way it is and until we get to the core problem you will not find a solution. #2 is the least likely and from the OP's post so far I'd bet the house that #1 and 3 are very likely. Don't worry, I've never met a shooter yet that at the start didn't know how to shoot or mount a scope. Everyone starts somewhere. I've also seen guys with years of experience shove the wrong ammo in a gun by accident.

But the fact remains that what you are talking about is next to impossible unless at least one of the 3 things I listed above is true and as stated, all the other stuff is BS in this case. Like I said, go to a GOOD range, dress the part and learn. You'll be better off in the long run.

LK

Added: my stereotyping (actually it's not stereotyping but I'll use your term for now) was spot on too. And...... I didn't say he wore the attire mentioned I told him not to wear the attire mentioned. If you dress in the attire I mentioned and take offence.......too bad.
 
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I can't give the young man answers unless he's properly dressed......:D:p:Or I could just tell him to use a dremmel instead of just plain old sandpaper to float that barrel, because it's faster!!! Now as far as ammo goes, I have shot alot of Remington Corelokts and they're just fine form commercial ammo, however I choose to use Hornady's Custom Ammo in 7mm, (also some handloads) and they will shoot 1/2 MOA at 100yds through my Weatherby. I own a Savage 110 .270 win that love to shoot tight groups. But I had to float the plastic away from the barrel, also I strenghtened the action-screw holes with aluminium tubing just a micro larger than the screws.. It makes a big difference!!:) Your shooting prowess may also be the culprit. I have spent alot of time shooting, but I spend almost more time practicing 4 simple steps..
1. steady position
2. proper sight alignment
3. breath control
4. trigger squeeze

Working on those fundamentals are most important to me.. period...;) I might also add that my savage loves the Hornady 130 gr sst's. The 7mm rem mag likes those 139 gr BTSP's. Godd luck and happy shooting dude!! and whoa Kenney Chill man!!!
 
L_killkenny... you really need to get a grip on reality bud. People suggesting mounting problems are trying to help the situation... your not helping anyone including yourself.

I work for a gun shop with 3 gun smiths on hand every day. I can't even begin to tell you how many guys "who dress the part" come in with their $800 rifle, and $800 scope mounted to it... but can't even get it on paper. A lot more goes into mounting a scope than screwing things together. Most people are too cheap to buy ring alignment tools, and a proper torque wrench, let alone hand lap their own rings.

The funniest part about your post is your emphasis on dressing the part. You are stereotyping... and between all of us that work together there's 3 competition shooters.... one former Green Beret, and one former Force Recon Marine... and we often make fun of the guys walking around in Blackhawk and 5.11 gear....pretending to be something they are not. I think the proper term is Mall Ninja...?

Funniest part is last time we all got a day off to go shooting together... the ex Green Beret wore a Jack Daniels Tshirt.. and seeing as I just recently graduated college I had one of my frat lettered T-shirts on... and what do you know... we out shot all the guys wearing their 5.11 pants and jackets and Wiley X sun/shooting glasses.

I mean really... however will ISPC shooters take me seriously if I don't wear "Tactical" clothing.... anyone feel like going shopping?:rolleyes:

Is there a cat walk at these ranges you visit? Do you guy's put on a show at New York Fashion Week? Are you guys on before or after Dolce & Gabbana? Any new items we just have to have in your new Fall line... or are you already thinking ahead for your spring collection?:rolleyes

Now to ignore the ignorance and address the actual problem.

Like others have stated, check over the spec's on your gun, check the rings... or just even buy new rings... get the shop to mount them. When customers buy a gun or scope from us we mount it for free... and if not we charge like $15 to do it the right way.

After that check yourself... not that your a bad shooter, but some things might come into play your not thinking about. Generally I don't try to shoot for groups with a bipod. Specially on the "cheaper" savage stocks.. they tend to flex up a bit in the front and you can be putting pressure on the barrel. Also it sounds like you already have a spot in the stock touching the barrel... like others have said.. 5 minutes and some sand paper can fix that.. just take your time and don't go overboard.

My guess would be that its a mount and ring issue.
 
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Go to a good range. I'm not talkin the local spray and pray joint but a good rifle range. Iszak Waltons or the like can be pretty down to earth. Now when you go, dress the part. Put your hat on the right way, wear pants that fit, have no holes and a belt. Leave the beer t-shirts at home and if your underwear shows give it up. When you get there do a lot of looking around, talk to people and ask advice. Tell them you are new and have them check your scope and gun. Have them watch you shoot or have them shoot your gun. Before long you will have all the answers you need. Or you could just go back to playing COD.
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Very Poor Form L_Killkenny. You can politely say that the problem almost has to be in the hands of the operator without throwing out coy insults. Dressing in 5.11s doesn't make you shoot better. When I go to mandatory range day I can wear shorts and a t-shirt and out shoot everyone there in "tactical" gear, save one or two who I would regard as equals in terms of ability.

Assassin... I would recommend that you drive to the closest range. It doesn't have to be some kind of super shooter club joint or anything, just any time of range that will allow you to shoot a rifle. I would ask advice from someone in person there.

KillKenny did get one thing right...

All the talk of scope bases, torque wrenches, changing ammo, cleaning, etc is absolutely pointless and will not solve the issues you are having. Finding ONE bolt action, even a military leftover with a shot out rusted barrel, that will only shoot 2 foot groups at 200 yards is next to impossible let alone TWO BRAND NEW SAVAGE rifles wearing 2 different scopes.
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I agree with this. Lapping scope rings and aligning them within .0001 of an inch is not a mandate for mounting a scope. Unless you absolutely butcher the job, 2 foot groups at 200 yards should not be your experience. The sloppiest AK I've ever seen, with iron sights, is capable of better. I don't think 2 new rifles with new optics both have an issue causing accuracy this poor. Nor is it a problem of slightly less than precise alignment.

Assassin, I'm not going to throw any insults. Ignorance can be fixed. If you don't know any better, then that's not a problem that can't be solved. I just hope you enjoy shooting, stick with it, learn alot, and go out and represent the firearm community well. There are dozens of potential causes to your problems, but I'm going to lean toward how the scope was mounted right now. Ammo, barrel bedding, tourqing the action bolts, cleaning the copper fouling, cleaning too much, waiting for the barrel to cool, etc... all of that stuff is to go from 2 or 3 inch groups to 1/2 inch groups. If you're groups are 8 or 12 inches at one hundred to begin with, then you have greater problems than most of those listed. I would suggest seeking the advice of a live person, that knows what he's talking about, standing before you. You have a couple of options. Get a gunsmith recommendation from the board. Or... go to a range and ask the guys that can shoot 1" groups at over 100 yards to help. Make sure you see them shoot and spend a little bit of time with the guy before you ask for advice. If your gut tells you to not trust them fully, then don't.

A public range is a wonderful place to learn stuff. Just don't ask any joe-blow there, watch the guys that look like they know what they're doing and then look at the paper they shoot at a few times before asking them for advice. This is probably the best advice you get from this whole forum.
 
I would go to a good range, find out who the most knowledgeable shooter and best shooter was and ask him if he'd shoot your rifle and then if still poor groups check a few things. It would be a smart way to finding the problem, whether it is the rifles or the nuts on the handles... (JK!!) :D
 
5Whiskey, Hooligan, HKfan, Clifford,
Thanks for the advice. I would definitely love to go to a range. Next time I take a trip to Phoenix or Tucson, I'll definitely bring my rifle and go to a range. Haha the problem is that in Flagstaff, there are no ranges. Hahaha, i'm not even talking a "spray and paint" as killkenny put it. Ha our ranges are the old fashioned, "hey this looks like a good spot, pull over here". But yes, I agree, I may be doing something wrong that my buddies havent noticed that a trained eye would, and next time i find one, I will definitely solicit his (or her) opinion. For now I will try some of the cheaper options posted here first, slight sanding in areas, checking the torque, better mounts and rings (which were already on their way). If that doesn't work, I feel confident saying its me, which is surprising regarding my other work with the Charles Daly scoped .223 I own. So if that is the case, a 4 hour drive to the ranges down south will be in order. Ha thanks for the polite way of putting it guys, makes me want to believe it may be a possibility. Clifford, I was thinking of calling savage anyway, just checking up to see if they think its a rifle issue. Hooligan, I definitely try to work on those everytime. I don't like being just a wham and bammer, I try to get the basics down every shot. 5Whiskey, Thanks, I do love shooting and won't stop. Its what I look forward to every few weeks. All day shooting is better than a day of doing anything else. And I do try to expand the firearms "knowledgeable" community by bringing friends and showing them the basics of guns (i'm no expert, but growing up in rural Idaho gives one small idea about which end you look down :rolleyes:). So yes, I wont give it up, I love it.
Thanks for all the help guys (and gals i suppose, not sure who's who.)
 
Regardless of clothing, let's start over again and get back to basics.

We CANNOT make groups to save our lives. We can zero perfectly fine at 25-50yrds and when we push it out to 100 yrds it gets more difficult to narrow down our groups so we settle for a general, loose zero, but when we push out to 200 yrds, our so called groups spread out almost two feet with random shots all over.
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As I understand it, you both have brand new Savage Package guns in 7mm rem mag??

First question is, are they with or without Accutriggers??

Second is, did they come with targets showing the test firings??

Third, did you keep the Simmons 3-9x40 mm scope that came with the rifle??

Fourth, did you use the rings that came with the rifle or change them??

Fifth, is did you really do a good cleaning job on the rifle before shooting it, not just the barrel, but the bolt and receiver as well?? Do you have crud under your extractor? Is the firing pin chanel clean and lubed?? Did you remove the firing pin spring and put it back backwards.

From you inital remarks, I would expect to see these type of results from a rifle with the headspace far off from what it should be, or a extractor not holding the cartrage flat to the bolt face.

Next problem would be if you installed new rings and did not square them up properly to the barrels axis and had to shift the zero of the scope far to one side or the other. Or installed aluminium rings instead of steel ones and are torquing the aluminium rings from the recoil of a mag rifle. Not all rings will hold up to the same amount of recoil.

My first act would be to take the rifle to a gunsmith and have him check out the headspace and function of the bolt. The second would be to replace the rings with a DECENT set of metal rings that will hold up to the recoil.

While you can get away with this on a non-mag rifle, you are reaching a different level with a rifle that is shooting 7mm rem mags or 300 win mags.

Just something you can check out without a lot of cost.

Jim
 
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2 similar rifles shooting 20 inch groups at 200 yards...? If the groups were the same (stringing), then maybe it's the stock making contact. But, I had a buddy with a rifle that did some serious stringing when it heated up and it wasn't the stock contact, but was a bad barrel, which isn't likely in this case. If it's just a big random group from both rifles, it's tempting to say it's the shooter, but I doubt that's the problem. And it seems unlikely that both rifles would do the same thing. And I doubt it's the ammo. If it's not severe copper fouling, which seems a strong maybe since they shoot together and shoot in the same manner, I agree with the guys that say it has something to do with the mounts and rings. First I'd clean the barrel again and again with a good copper solvent till I quit getting green patches and try shooting again, and that might take more cleaning than you think is necessary. If that didn't fix it, I'd take the scope and mounts off and carefully mount them again, or have a gunsmith do it.

I had a similar problem last year that turned out to be the scope, but to have two scopes of different makes going bad at the same time seems a low percentage possibility.
 
easy

Simple way to find out if its you or the rifle is to have somebody else who can shoot well, shoot the rifle for group.

If the rifle groups, guess what?

You will not see a "flinch" with live ammo. Instruct a buddy to pass the rifle to you, SAFELY, sometimes loaded, other times w/ an empty chamber, and hold and press off a good trigger stroke. The object is that you will not know if the piece is loaded or not, until the trigger trips. If the cross hairs bobble, your anticipating and that can have a major effect on groups.
 
I have to kind of agree with L_Killkenny.
Its not that what you wear makes a difference but normal people will be more inclined to help someone who looks respectful opposed to someone who doesn't.
But thats not to say the OP doesn't dress respectfully.
I know there are lots of people who are like this, just look at all the people who comment in post about mall ninjas.

I personally would be more inclined to help someone who look respectful, talked politely and listened to advice I gave them.
Call me old fashioned by thats the way the world used to be, and just because times have changed doesn't mean they have changed for the better.
 
I was always told not to judge a book by its cover. If you want to run around in stores in 5.11 gear then be my guest... but more often times than not we get people at the counter wearing their "tactical" clothing, and telling us how much of a professional they are... when it becomes clear they have no idea what they are talking about.

Like I said... when me and my co-workers go to the range its about shooting, not a fashion shot. Its usually jeans.. Tshirts... hoodies... boots, I happen to have waterproof Northface hiking shoes I use at the range because the metal plate and 8 screws in my ankle can't handle a high cut boot well.;)

It just shouldn't be an issue of what people are wearing. Period... actions speak louder than words... and dress in my world.

Like I and others have stated we didn't rule out it might be operator error... but to me it sounds like a mounting issue... but needless to say people shouldn't talk down to novice shooters on the forum. People are hear to learn... we're all at different levels.
 
IMHO I think you should slow down some more,If the barrel is hotter than the coffee you drink slow down.Use a table & sand bag use the same cheek weld everytime.Shoot 2 or 3 times check the target let it cool 5 mins or so it dont take a 7mag or the 30-06 much to get hot.
If it groups at 25- 50 it shouldnt change that much,Whats the chances of 2 savages throwing the same 20'' groups.I'm not throwlng rocks here im just saying. might try getting GOOD groups @ 100 before you get carried away@ 200yards.everybodys skills are different.good luck hope you get it worked out.:D
 
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