Safety & muzzleloaders - are we buying bombs?

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That is the thing about the internet. Annonimity. Are you really who you say you are? We don't know.

What I do know is that this does not really pass the smell test.

Why?

1st. If the case was so good, why settle? Why cave in if it was that good a case for you and against CVA. Settling does not mean that it was proved that a proper load was used in the gun. Settling means that the case is over without fault being proved at all. Legally, that's the bottom line.

2nd. The website - under construction? If this was something that had been going on for years, why is the website under construction.

3rd. Unbiased website? I didn't see anything unbiased about it. Pretty much a one-sided thing that smacked of an ambulance chaser. A bunch of names, for sure, but anybody can put a bunch of names down.

4th. Photoshopping is too prevalent nowadays to say that is a true and correct x-ray. I'm looking for cracked bone and teeth and not seeing it. Click on the photo and it does not enlarge. That might help to show it was not photoshopped if we could see details, but we don't.

5th. No other x-rays. Why only one if so many were injured?

No, to me this sounds too much like somebody is pulling our collective leg here. Again, he could be who he says he is, but it s just as possible that the writer is not.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
Rediculous

I have to admit that I wondered how people would respond to my post. But I never imagined your senseless argument would be one of them. The answer to your question is simple.....I have nothing to gain by taking the time to write that lengthy post. Anonymity? I posted my name. Try googling it. you will see story after story of my accident. Better yet, if you really question if I am who I say I am, feel free to contact me by email and we can talk on the phone. I can send you picture after picture of my face before, during and after the surgery to remove the bolt. I can also send you multiple xrays and 50 or more MRI images. But I venture to guess that you will not email nor will we talk on the phone. You are the one hiding behind anonymity. What I would say to you is to be careful what you write....you might just dissuade someone from believing the truth about CVA and they might be the next victim. Do you want that on your conscience?
 
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My cop friends ask me how I could sleep at night being a defense lawyer. I told them that after I found out I had sleep apthnea and got one of those machines, I slept fine.

It's the same thing here. I'll sleep fine since I do not know if you are really the person you say you are. :p

If you are who you say you are, you do not strengthen your argument by calling my response senseless.

In fact, it does make perfect sense, since, for all I know, you could be Wakeman here. I never met the guy. I don't know what he sounds like in person, so even if I was to call you, how do I know it is you, unless I see a driver's license, etc... As I said, this internet is a great thing for staying annonymous.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

PS, I googled the name Erik Zenger. Came up with some short articles, one by Chuck Hawks, but nothing stating you really are who you say you are. Sorry, that's the way it is.
 
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What do I have to gain?

Well, again you just have to question my motive. Why would I take the time to post this? I have nothing to gain. I am sorry that you don't think that i am who I say I am, but I am not going to let that dissuade me in my attempts to get the truth out there. If it truly matters to you, I am certain there are ways I could prove to you who I am....If it doesn't, then there is nothing I can do about it.

Thanks for taking time to respond.
 
Well Mr ezenger , I for one believe you , had a friend that had a 50 CVA POS and it flower potted (end of barrel split wide open)
I for one would not stand next to one of those things going off , fact.
And I understand settling , the sharks (lawyers) wear you down,happened to me in 85 when a high school kid ran over me and broke my back.
and I don't hide behind a fake name , I am
Jeffrey Noyes
7325 parrot dr
Port Richey FL
727-849-1937
 
Thanks

Thank you Mr. Noyes. Perhaps posting my contact information on here will lend credence to what I have written. If anyone would like to contact me, feel free.
Erik S. Zenger
PO Box 2101
Orem, Utah 84059
801 362 3000
 
Nope Mr FrontierGander just very pour quality , was rite there , it split from end to almost the breach , was in the morn , first shooting , clean gun , normal load , round ball.
You could not give me a CVA.
 
And DrLaw as you say a lot of us are fakes , how about posting your name and firm? or is that fake.
This is me , old Nam vet.
img002-2.jpg


I'm sure you can read service connected
 
Who am I?

No, I am going to make you work at it.

I like to have fun on these forums. I have seen people do the old bait thing, putting out false threads to see who will jump on them. Skeptic? You betchya.

Frankly, Pappy, that could or could not be you. You see, anybody can post anything on these forums.

I have slightly over 300 some posts on these threads here, and have also been on The Firing Line and Surplusrifle.com's forum. As I said, I am going to make you work at it. There is enough out there in those forums to figure out who I am, where I am, and, if googled when you figure out the town and one other pertinent thing, you will find me. I've checked on that. In fact, I have fun checking on that from time to time. I can also be found using my real name on rr-fallenflags.org, since I am also a railfan.

The thing is that my guns I want secure. I don't give out my name willy-nilly.
Sorry, I just like to be secure.

And the fun part is, that you can believe that or not, and it will not bother me. :D

The Doc is out now. :cool:

PS, I printed out your card, ran it through a bar code reader at the local Wally World, and it said that you were $49.95, metal folding chair.

:rolleyes:
 
I'm not questioning anyone's integrity, but some of the generalizations made about all CVA guns does seem to go over the top. Especially considering the large volume of guns and models that they have produced over the years.
For whatever amount of defective guns that they have produced, CVA should certainly be held accountable for damages. And the outcomes of complaints shouldn't be kept secret so that they either produce better guns or be run out of business by the judgement of the jury of consumers.
Many manufacturers have made defective and dangerous products in the past, and rarely does that translate into an indictment condemning every product that the company ever made.
In CVA's case, most all of their products are still available in the marketplace in sufficient numbers so that the historical integrity of each of their products can be readily tested and verified by independent means if necessary. I'm sure that by finding out and verifying if the claims that shooting their guns is like playing Russian Roulette are actually true, then some firms would then be able to make a fortune in litigation and settlements for accidents that haven't even occurred yet, by forcing the recall of those products based on those predictions or by litigating all of the new accident claims.
Product testing would allow the real truth to come out about which guns are at most risk and which are not at any risk, so that the public isn't only hearing about false allegations and hasty over-generalizations.
Now I have a .36 caliber CVA sidelock and I'm supposed to believe that it's a ticking time bomb? That it can't withstand double [or triple] the recommended load of powder? Have a single one of them ever blown up?
Yet it's being asserted that no one should ever shoot any CVA gun again if they value their life, or advocate that anyone else do so either.
I truely feel sad for any innocent person that's injured by any defective product due to no fault of their own. But where to draw the line without some scientific testing and evidence? Let's not indict every product any company ever made with an overly broad brush. Justice would demand some surgical precision.
Which CVA guns are at high risk?
Which CVA guns are at low risk?
Which CVA guns are at no risk?
I wish that I had more information about CVA guns being outlawed in Europe. Does that apply to Dikar guns too and when did that go into effect?
Europe won't even allow the importation of American beef because of all the growth hormones that we feed our cattle. I can't say that I blame them, but I eat American beef and even go to MacDonald's. So where are we all supposed to draw the line about it being safe or not safe to participate in shooting CVA guns? Never ever?
Nuclear power plants have also been proven to cause an increase in child leukemia rates in counties and areas adjacent to them. Does that mean that we shouldn't have them anymore, or does that mean that we should make them safer? Should we close them all down right now and not let them produce anymore electricity?
These are real questions to real problems. People advocate courses of action based on their own perspective.
If I was injured and almost died from a CVA gun, I would be pretty upset and want some justice too. Exactly how to go about that is what becomes an agenda. I'm not sure what the best agenda is, but I really think that it should be based on scientific facts and testing. And when certain guns are found out to be bad or at risk then the facts should be screamed out from the mountain tops. Then let's all work together to verify the facts. It looks like many facts in the website are buried too deep somewhere. I don't know where to find many. At least not about my .36 CVA. Now is mine safe or not safe? Historically speaking, mine has already been proven to be safe unless someone can logically prove otherwise using relevant facts rather than emotionalism.
 
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agenda

Well articap, I concur.....how does one go about spreading the word without coming across as having some ulterior agenda? I have struggled with that very question for years. I was content spreading the word on a local level after I was told by Robert Hickey (one time owner of CVA) and his attorneys that the injuries sustained by CVA guns were limited to guns built in 1995 and 1996. They went on to inform me that the recall was extremely effective and that there were very few of these "dangerous guns" that had not been found.

It wasn't until just 2 years ago that I came in contact with some attorneys that have evidence that there are many more injuries sustained from CVA guns than what I was lead to believe. I once again became angry, and decided that I would do anything in my power to make people aware of the dangers associated with CVA rifles.

You pose a valid question. How do we as consumers know which particular CVA rifles are dangerous. I dont believe that I am qualified to address that question with any scientific evidence. All I can say is that I would never let any of my friends or family shoot any gun manufactured by CVA or Dikar.

I received an email tonight that asked me why I would get involved and put myself in the line of fire. Well I can only answer that question like this. Imagine the most traumatic, horrific thing that has ever happened to you.....The one thing that changed your life forever. Ok now that you have that "one thing"....if you thought that you could prevent that from happening to anyone else, just by opening your mouth...would you? I decided that I would.

I hope that everyone will take the time to go check out the website www.cvaguncases.com. The site will be up and running at some point in time today.
 
arcticap you write a very nice post , very good. I cannot say they are all bad , only have seen and heard about that one time some 20 years ago.
It was a smooth bore 50 and it did split from front to rear , scared the hell out of us.
BUT it did make me shy of them.
I do worry about the TC Omega I bought here recently , calls for up to 150 grains and a sabot , no round ball recommended.
I will start with 90 grain for the TC 370 grain Maxie balls I have for it.
Got a felling it will kick like a mule.
 
PS, I printed out your card, ran it through a bar code reader at the local Wally World, and it said that you were $49.95, metal folding chair.
Click to expand...

DrLaw, that is the funniest thing I have read all night. I almost fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard.
 
first case i went to that was you eric was a recall gun. Police report says there was no damage to the barrel or chamber of the rifle.

The bolt blew out into your face. Ok, wheres the dangerous barrel on your rifle?

im betting that 96'er had the plastic plunger plug on it right?
 
hahhaha no cases against TC or savage muzzleloading? Yeah i can tell you thats a HUUUUUUUUGE LIE right there! Hell on huntingnet.com a tc triump's barrel split open on a guy. Took him forever to get an replacement and when he did, that replacement was worse than the rifle that split open.

And savage when they first came out had a breech plug design flaw where they were ticking time bombs, ask toby bridges about his savage. Even recently way up in canada a guys savage blew up on him.

No cases again tc of savage. BS!!!! Someones lying right there.

IMO that website offered no answer on what actually happened. Hell i saw a case against traditions * dangerous gun* and the guy sued because his bolt/trigger got pulled back while going through brush and fired the rifle hitting him in the torso. Not quite sure what the rifles barrel is doing pointed at your stomach area while hiking through the brush. Anyone know how that can happen?
 
recall gun

yep, my gun was one of the recall guns. My gun failed exactly how the other recall guns failed. The steel used was substandard and the scope holes were drilled too deep causing the barrel to split around the circumference. The last 1.5 inches of the barrel along with the breach plug, spring and bolt came out the back of the gun. I would be happy to send you pictures of the gun that were taken mere hours after the accident. One can plainly see the damage to the exterior of the gun.

I have made no comments about other brand of rifles not failing, I have only commented on overall safety records.
 
yeah and how deep were the holes?


Green mountains sight holes leave .050" thicknessof barrel left.

The police report said there was no damage to the barrel or chamber of your rifle.
 
hole depth

That is an excellent question that I do not know the definitive answer to.....other than deep enough that my barrel split and damn near killed me. My gun was sent off to a gentleman by the name of Luke Hauge, who did a thorough review of the gun and evaluated the steel and the depth of the holes. I would be happy to obtain a copy of his report and forward it on to you.
 
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