Safety & muzzleloaders - are we buying bombs?

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If either Mr. Hendricks or Mr. McGarity would grant permission for their sworn depositions to be posted here, I can certainly try to help with that.

As far as http://randywakeman.com/Muzzleloading_Tragedy_CVA_Menace.htm BPI / DIKAR / CVA Mr. Hendricks, and Mr. McGarity have been unable to show that anything in this article is anything less than truthful.

Is anything that Erik Zenger reported untruthful?

On December 8, 2008, I received an unsolicited e-mail from eye-witness Erik Zenger, which states in part:

Randy,

I am currently sitting in a courthouse in Des Moines, Iowa listening to the CVA attorneys trying to defend the safety of their guns. I am sick to my stomach over the blatant lies and disregard for human life and safety. It has come to my attention that it is not just tens of people hurt by their guns like they had told me-- but its like 300 or more.....the most recent was filed in federal court on November 10. Apparently the guy lost an eye and suffered brain damage.

Something has to be done. There needs to be national attention brought to this issue...how can we do this? Please let me know what we can do.
Further, on December 9, 2008, Erik Zenger reported:
"What I heard yesterday was this.....

1) 1 out of every 25 barrels is tested with a go - no go tool to see if the threads for the breach plug are the right size....thats a mere 4%.

2) Every gun that leaves the factory for the USA has a proof stamp on it, even though they have not been to the proof house. The Dikar guy said that they have no documentation from the proof house authorizing them to do this, he had just been told by "someone" at Dikar (he could not remember who it was) to just go ahead and put a proof mark on each barrel. If a Dikar barrel is to be sold in Europe (which they have not been for about 4 years) they ALL need to go through proof testing.

3) 4 barrels a month are sent to the proof house to be pressure tested. They fire the barrel with a load that is equal to 2 times that which is recommended. These are not randomly selected barrels they just grab 4 consecutive out of a batch. And that is 4 total for all the different barrels they make."

How is it that putting PROOF MARKS on barrels that have never been fired, as Erik Zenger has reported above, without any authority from any proof house to do so (also as reported by Erik Zenger) is not total misrepresentation and fraud?

I'm interested in a straight answer to that one. Has ANY CVA gun EVER sold EVER been proof-tested or even so much as fired with a standard working load prior to sale? Any of them?

Do you have any idea where your barrels actually come from before you machine them? Do you even know what specific material they are made from? Have you ever tested them with the very loads you recommend? How is it that a "three pellet 150 grain equivalent load" is okay, but 100 grains of loose powder is "MAX"?

Aren't you aware that Toby Bridges has been a very loud critic of CVA, calling BPI exhibiting a total disregard for consumer safety? Doc White? Erik Brooker? Hodgdon Powder? The CIP? Aren't you aware of the CIP's stance that what you are doing is "completely unacceptable"?

Don't you remember the injuries to Erik Zenger suffered from a CVA inline, Jimmy Dial was injured by a CVA inline, Troy Cashdollar was injured by a CVA inline, Eliot Best was injured by a CVA inline, Mark Kohn was injured by a CVA inline?

H. P. White, the most reputable independent firearms ballistic lab in the United States, had a lot to say about CVA. Don't you remember?

I can help refresh your memories if you'd like.
 
cva

now i see what your talking about but i have a few question to ask
1 was this a recall rifle?
2 what kind of load was he using? (min or max )
3 what kind of powder Smokeless or black powder?
4 could it be shooters error Dbl charge short seating ?
thank you
 
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Does Savage,knight, TC, NEF, Remington (Traditions) test EVERY barrel they sell?

If CVA was so unsafe, you would not be doing reviews on them.

Anything to say about the Bergara barrel?
 
Anyone who thinks that CVA,:barf:Traditions,:barf:Lyman :barf:and the Cabelas "Hawken":barf: are good rifles need to spend some time looking at the really good ones.I do not consider Pedersoli a "good one"but alot better than the previous mentions and safe.Pedersoli uses good steel only in their barrels, locks, thimbles trigger guards always feel "cheap".T/C is a decent rifle and certainly safe.
I do not understand folks who will spend a $1000.00 on a C/F rifle but will only spend $200.00 for a M/L you get what you pay for especially when it's made off shore.A good M/L will cost as much as a good production American C/F rifle without going to a custom.Unfortunately we do not have any American CO.'s
building really good M/L's (traditional rifles)There is a reason that you do not see many used Browning M/L's in the for sale columnThe folks who have have them recognize quality and they were never as expensive as their C/F rifles.
 
others

Don't you remember the injuries to Erik Zenger suffered from a CVA inline, Jimmy Dial was injured by a CVA inline, Troy Cashdollar was injured by a CVA inline, Eliot Best was injured by a CVA inline, Mark Kohn was injured by a CVA inline?
Click to expand...

Those injuries, I take it, are a matter of record. For comparison's sake, where are and what are the citations for injuries suffered by shooters using other brands of Mlers? How do these compare proportionately to the CVA citations in terms of injuries per number of firearms sold?
Without such information, the citations about CVA are relatively useless.
Pete
 
(Sigh):(

One person's crusade, for whatever reason. Where are these hundreds of people?

I've seen more photos of Smith & Wesson revolvers and even a Ruger revolver having been blown up than I have ever seen of muzzleloaders.

I've seen photos of centerfire rifles with burst barrels.

Each time, it was due to double loads, or other operator error (reloads with wrong powder, things in barrels, etc...) with the exception of a recent photo of a barrel blown away at the frame.

That translates to shooter error, not gun-maker error.

I'm a lawyer, and I do not like it that lawyers have assisted in getting the gun locks on guns (stupid answer for stupid people) or tight medicine lids (knee-jerk reaction to stupid parents, people and kids), warning labels on coffee cups (oh it's hot, really?) or medical costs to skyrocket because a handful of people had heart attacks when taking a medicine that helps millions of people, etc...

I read through this thread and I have yet to see something definative here. As a prosecutor, I used to tell the cops who would tell me that somebody was a criminal, "fine, get the evidence, until then, no charges".

Wakeman, evidence please, that it was the manufacturers fault. That means metalurgical tests, definitive proof it was not operator error, and that the fault solely rests with the manufacturer.

Personally, I don't care about CVA, Traditions, Knight, or any other manufacturer. I want to have fun with guns and fun in the forums (meaning learning REAL things, entertainment, and relaxation). Seeing a thread entitled
"Are we buying bombs?" fulfills none of those things I am looking for in these threads.

Evidence, or shut up, :mad: please :).

The Doc is out now and shaking his head. :cool:
 
Fact is CVA has been selling cheap muzzle loading guns since the 70 `s and selling more guns than others too .. and selling to more inexperienced first time shooters than all the better made gun companys .T/C for one . So i figure with this many guns in the hands of the most inexperienced there`s probally been the most mistakes made such as heavy loaded short started loads maybe even some with smokeless powders ...
-- Sundance44s

Alas, I must respectfully disagree with you, Sundance.
I have a CVA Mountain Rifle, .50-caliber, I purchased new about 1981. Its browned barrel is stamped, MADE IN USA.
It is a well-made and accurate rifle -- just as well made in 1981 as the Thompson Centers.
So, to accuse CVA of selling junk "since the 70 ' s" is untrue.
In fact, I recall that I paid more for this CVA than a Thompson Center because its steel was browned and all furniture was steel, pewter or German silver.
I went with the CVA because it looked like an original gun and lacked the garish, cheap-to-machine brass and modern sights that Thompson Center put on its rifles.
With a proper load of black powder or Pyrodex, the CVA or Thompson Center rifle of 1981 was entirely safe.
Alas, I do agree that at some point CVA began having its barrels made in Spain, and quality suffered greatly. CVA rifles bearing the MADE IN USA stamp on their barrel command much higher prices than those made in Spain, for good reason.

Sorry. Not to be a pain in the neck, but I had to respond to your blanket statement that CVA has made nothing but junk since the 1970s.

Also stamped on my CVA barrel is BLACK POWDER ONLY. If someone throws smokeless powder down their barrel, it's their fault. Not the fault of the gun.maker.

As for more folks learning black powder by buying a CVA, I rather doubt this. Thompson Center predates CVA by a number of years. As I recall, T/C came out with its black powder rifles in the late 1960s. CVA came out with their rifles in the mid 1970s.
Thompson Center rifles were, and remain, enormously popular from the beginning. When I met black powder shooters in the 1970s and 1980s, they almost always had a T/C rifle. There was a smattering of Hopkins & Allen and an occasional Lyman, but T/C seemed to rule the roost.

I never saw a blown-up CVA, T/C, Hopkins & Allen or Lyman but I'm sure plenty were blown by folks who were ignorant of their needs.
Back in the 1960s and 1970s, there were few books on black powder. Lyman led the pack, followed by a little booklet that T/C put out. The internet didn't exist, so you couldn't easily get access to factory information or the experience of others.
Though DuPont manufacted black powder, I don't recall it once publishing a manual on how to use its product in various firearms. Its entire booklet was dedicated to the smokeless powders it produced.

There was an incredible amount of incorrect and downright dangerous information coming from the lips of other shooters in the 1960s on up to the 1980s. There still is, but most of today's shooters are better informed.
I recall "back in the day" that know-it-alls were advising folks to load a little smokeless powder in their black powder rifles and revolvers for cleaner burning! :eek: There are still morons out there advising this.
Folks were loading two patched balls, or even two conical bullets, down large charges of black powder for their "bear load" and giving a knowing wink to newcomers. God knows how many guns blew at this practice.

At what point CVA's quality changed for the worse I don't know. I suspect it was in the late 80s or early 90s, as it seems that rifles from these eras obviously lack the qualify of the one I bought in 1981.

In today's litigious society, I take with a bag of salt any lawsuit claiming manufacturer negligence. Lawsuits have become the "Redneck Lottery" today. If CVA guns have blown with crippling or deadly effect, I'd more likely suspect the loading practices of the shooter than the gun.

On a final note, I don't recall hearing of many guns blowing until the advent of propellant pellets, sabots, jacketed bullets, black powder substitutes, 209 primers and the like. I believe that these features encourage people to "push the envelope" and enter the Realm of Dangerous Practices.

In simpler times, when folks used black powder, lead balls, patches, greased lead bullets and percussion caps muzzleloading was much safer.
Today, the proliferation of "modern advances" has obscured what is, and is not, a safe practice.
And a pox on Savage for marketing a muzzleloading rifle that uses smokeless powder! God knows how many rifles have been damaged or destroyed because someone used the wrong smokeless powder in their Savage, or thought that since the Savage could take it, their rifle could too.

Perhaps the muzzleloading hobby is a process of Darwinism at work.

I hope you don't take my observations as a personal attack, Sundance. I admire and respect your knowledge and I've often profited from it, but felt I should respond to your blanket statement about CVAs.
So many newer shooters out there may not recall the day when CVA made high-quality firearms.
 
This is quite typical of Mr. Wakeman. He posts, or writes, a long rant against CVA (only - no other company is ever attacked by him) alleging many failures and 'naming names', all with an air of fact. But he never, and I repeat, NEVER, answers the requests for documentation or details - he just disappears. He just has no credibility; it would be so easy to do - all he'd have to do is provide the documentation and he'd be a hero. I've come to believe there is no substance to his claims, because there is no verifiable basis to them.
 
Anyone that calls my .58cal cva mountain rifle cheap- Gonna get pimp slapped :cool:
nice.jpg


I just picked up a CVA Hawken .54cal made in 1996. The color i dont like but she lays tight groups!
Picture082.jpg
 
I ain't skeert of no CVA.:D I had my Investarms .50 rebarreled to .54 with a modified CVA barrel. Anybody says they're no good or dangerous doesn't know what they're talking about and can go pee up a rope. And just for the record Toby Bridges is the worst thing to happen to traditional muzzleloading to ever come down the pike.
 
Ill even go as far as saying 90% of ALL production guns are cheap crap.

Compared to semi and custom rifles, you build yourself.

The mere quality of American made parts, let alone the craftsmanship.

Ive been shooting BP for decades, and have not shot a production gun in 20 years, let alone owned one.

CVA is the bottom of the barrel. Unless you can find a Hipower, which is a jap CVA copy.

O might shoot a Shilo Sharps, or Parker-Hale rifle, if one could be found.
Other than that, I dont let friends buy import production guns.

It would have to be a left handed rifle and I would really prefer a flintlock.
Click to expand...

Jim makes left handed kits

http://www.flintlocks.com/index.htm
 
Ive been shooting BP for decades, and have not shot a production gun in 20 years, let alone owned one.
Click to expand...

Then how in the world would you know what today's guns are like? I've been shooting since I was 18, and am 53 now (though I wish I was still younger! :D) . I have only seen the quality rise on most all guns. While there is some crud out there, it is the case in life that there will always be some crud out there.

My Uberti's are pretty much flawless, my Ruger's the same, my Savage Model 11 is great, my DPMS/Doublestar AR is super, and I could go on and on.

A statement about guns being bad and then not having shot or owned a production gun for 20 years is what is called in my business 'impeachable', which means not worth the time that it took to write it. Sorry, but that just does not hold water, or as Abe Lincoln said, 'That plow won't scour".

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
T/C Omega has a safe barrel... somehow I happen to know that 150 grains of Triple 7, the hottest ML substitute with a 250 sabot and a good chunk of a broken brass ramroad on top of it didn't do much other than a brutal recoil. Oh, yes it damaged the Nikon scope on top of it...
 
T/C Omega has a safe barrel... somehow I happen to know that 150 grains of Triple 7, the hottest ML substitute with a 250 sabot and a good chunk of a broken brass ramroad on top of it didn't do much other than a brutal recoil. Oh, yes it damaged the Nikon scope on top of it...
Click to expand...

Your single incident simply says you may have been very lucky. In no way does one event prove the entire population of T/C Omegas are resilient to such abuse.
 
Hi there, long time reader and I finally registered.

In regards the the Randy Wakeman articles, I personally think it is clear he has a personal vendetta against CVA for some reason. If you believe what he writes then don't buy one. I believe they are decent rifles for the price. Are they as nice as a T/C or a Knight? No. But then again they are not as much money either. They are decent guns if you are not looking to spend as much money or just getting into the sport.

One other thing on Randy Wakeman, he also wrote an article you can find on google regarding Powerbelt Bullets. Powerbelt carries the CVA name as you are probably aware however they are not manufactured in Spain. In fact they are manufactured in the great state of Idaho. He rips these bullets to pieces just as he does the CVA rifles. And there is nobody on this planet that will convince me those bullets are junk. In fact many many fellow hunters I know it's all they use. It is clear he is out to trash CVA.
 
Let me jump in here as a muzzleloader builder & gunsmith along with my 29 years of burning black powder in both ML's and cartridge guns.

I've replied to many such of these posts and it's the same old BS all the time, nothing is ever new and the facts are twisted and clouded by personal vendetta often times with a financial motive.

In all the years that I've been assembling mass-production kits and repairing factory-built mass-production guns, it does not take long for patterns to establish themselves and by far the most prevalent safety issues with the commonly known name brands are associated with the locks, triggers and cylinder mechanisms on C&B revolvers. Some of the generics, those with no or a little known name, come from Italy, Spain & Brazil and are of equal and sometimes higher quality than the commonly known name brand mass-production guns.

The major barrel safety issues are associated with those coming from the middle and far east region. Some examples are barrels made from poorly manufactured tubing that is not intended to be used for gun barrels or much of anything else for that matter. Breechplugs that are improperly made and some secured by nothing more than junk solder or braze, no threads. Revolvers that come out of the box with a .44cal cylinder and a .36cal barrel and so forth. These are the excessively dangerous guns!

Yes, I have seen many guns, both mass-production and custom/semi-custom that suffered catastrophic barrel failures and the majority of those failures are attributed to improper operation and/or improper maintenance/repair. Just the same as you cannot fault Dodge because you ran into a tree while playing with your ipod, you cannot fault a manufacturer because some idiot short-started or charged the bore with smokeless powder!

I started in black powder with a CVA Kentucky flintlock and over the years I have owned and worked on numerous mass-production guns. The highest quality and best shooting production gun I ever had was a no-name generic long rifle made in Italy. The lowest quality and most dangerous was a Pedersoli Kodiak and the same very dangerous sear/tumbler manufacturing issues have been seen in numerous other Pedersoli sidelocks too. My best overall quality praise for a mass-production gun goes to Lyman.

First off, nothing mechanical is immune to failure and the ultimate responsibility for safety lies with the user - thus is why we stress the point that the muzzle is ALWAYS pointed in a safe direction. I don't care if it's the latest wiz-bang loudenboomer mega-magnum bolt action or an original 1759 flintlock, either one can suffer an unexpected mechanical failure just the same as either one can be destroyed by an operator who is ignorant as to the proper operation or an idiot who intentionally creates a problem. On the flip-side you have those problems that result from lack of workmanship/quality control such as in the case of the Pedersoli locks being made with insufficient/incorrect sear/tumbler engagement and the middle/far east guns intentionally made incorrectly and/or with known dangerous materials.

One is only left to question why Mr. Wakeman singles out CVA when there are truly dangerous guns coming from the middle & far east and still being sold today?

I'm not endorsing CVA by any means but if we're going to talk about safety issues, let's apply the standards fairly and assign the points of importance where they belong. You want to worry about dangerous barrels ... Worry about the barrel bombs coming from the middle and far east regions or those who think a barrel can be made from hydraulic tubing that cannot handle the shock-loading associated with gun barrel applications. Worry about a little speck of rust causing the sear plunger to bind in the T/C locks resulting in the sear failing to engage the tumbler. Worry about your Pedersoli not having a properly formed sear/tumbler. Worry about the ignorant or idiots who go on the internet and read about some moron who claims it's safe to use "a little smokeless with the black powder". Worry about the "bubba gunsmiths" and the modern gunsmiths who are ignorant to the particulars of proper muzzleloader gunsmithing.

Let's be fair here and also apply some common sense. CVA guns are far from "top shelf" and I am by no means endorsing them but don't you think that if they suffered the numerous barrel failures as Mr. Wakeman is alluding, wouldn't CVA have long-since been bankrupt by law suits?

Why does Mr. Wakeman not make such a fuss over the numerous Remington 1100 receivers that broke or the Remington shotgun barrels that split or any of the other problems encountered by chance or design by other mass-production manufacturers?

If you want a top quality gun, you've got to look at something other than a mass-production gun. I don't care what brand it is, mass-production means everything is built to time and a selling price so there is a lot of compromise going on. Also keep in mind that not every custom/semi-custom gun-builder/gunsmith uses top quality parts or does professional quality work either. Additionally you must never ignore the fact that no matter how much time, effort or money is spent trying to obtain the highest quality parts, they are not immune to unforeseen failure nor will they protect you from stupidity.
 
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