Safety & muzzleloaders - are we buying bombs?

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marcseatac

If Whisk is correct about this:

I know Hodgon's recommends only up to 100 grs of FFFg Triple Seven whether gun is called magnum or not!

CVA manual recommends up to 100 grs of FFFg Triple Seven but only with Powerbelt bullets.

and you tried 150 gr Triple 7 pellets, then you clearly exceeded the recommendations, correct?

You say you try *everything* - have you tried 300 grains then? As long as you're ignoring (or not discovering) the recommendations, why not test that too? Unless I'm missing something, you're flirting with adopting the nickname "Ol' One-Eye Marc", clean barrel or not. I'm glad you're satisfied now at least - hopefully you won't try that again.
 
For clarification:

The Hodgon manual was referring to loose Triple 7 not pelets and it just showed the highest recommended load being 100 grs so I assumed that was the max.

I still think I'll back off to 80 grs. It actually did seem more accurate at 50 yds!
 
This from the CVA manual:

*Warning: This is a *Magnum* charge and can only be safely loaded in Magnum capable rifles. Magnum capable rifles include all CVA Break-Actions, Bolt Action in-lines (Firebolt, Magbolt, and HunterBolt) and any year 2001+ Eclipse and Stag Horn rifles. "These magnum capable" guns can be identified by the one piece barrel construction, a serial number ending in 01, 02, 03, and the designation "magnum" on the barrel. Such "magnum" loads do require the use of a musket cap or preferably the #209 shotgun primer ignition in order to fully ignite the charge. Such "magnum" loads should never be fired in conventional In-Lines that do not feature the one-piece Monoblock barrel design.
--------------------------------------------------------------

I always read the manual first. I'm good to go. My Optima Pro is CVA's new top line rifle. The barrel is thick, the gun is 8 1/2 lbs heavy. Thanks for the concern!
 
From Hodgon website:

Bullet
Powder Charge (Gr.)
Pellets Used *
Velocity (FPS)
295 Gr. Power Belt 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr.1431 295 Gr. Power Belt 90 Three 50 cal. / 30 gr.1484 295 Gr. Power Belt 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr.1555 348 Gr. Power Belt 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr.1351 348 Gr. Power Belt 90 Three 50 cal. / 30 gr.1417 348 Gr. Power Belt 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr.1469 405 Gr. Power Belt 80 One 50 cal. / 50 gr. + One 50 cal. / 30 gr.1100 405 Gr. Power Belt 100 Two 50 cal. / 50 gr.1386

Like I said, for some reason they stop at 100 grs.

Think I'll stop at 80 for now with loose FFFg and my 295 gr Powerbelts!
 
Here's an example of something I got from the Lyman BP Handbook:

50 Cal 22" barrel 1-24 Twist
Projectile Hornady Sabot 240gr, cci #11, Pyrodex RS
120 gr, MV 1864, ME Ft lbs 1852, pressure 29,900 V@100yd 1532, Energy Ft lbs @100yd 1251

Same thing using 3 Pyrodex 50 gr pellets
150 gr, MV 2049, ME Ft lbs 2238, pressure 27,000 V@100yd 1692, Energy Ft lbs @100yd 1526

Note that the pressure is actually less in the 150 grain pellet charge. It's interesting stuff, if you don't have a chrony, again I recommend the book.
 
IT SAYS CCI #11

I WOULDA THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A 209

I have a friend who has shot 3 50/50 Pyrodex pellets behind a 295 gr Powerbelt for a long time with a Magnum CVA

He's never had a problem

I just figure its like the 8 lb "lawyer triggers" they put on even little 22's now!

They are vastly erring on the side of safety for legal reasons

I think the problem comes with pushing the limits (150 grs of ANYTHING) when basic safety measure are not adhered to such as cleaning bore every few shots to ensure the bullet seats all the way down to the powder charge not leaving a dangerous "gap".

I know my 209 CVA Wolf Magnum appears to be built well but without a metalurgical analysis of the bbl how would anyone know? A golf pro years ago told me (after I had bought a set of graphite sticks at WalMart for half what the pro shop sold them for) "do you know where the "seconds" go after the spectrographical analysis of the shafts, etc. ?"

Yep. Wally World.

But I'm not a good enough duffer for it even to probably ever matter. But with a thing that goes BOOM! that logic may not serve one well........
 
A great example of that lawyer effect is written into Piettas manual for the 1858 Remington Revolver. Recommended charge 15 grs, maximum 18 grs. I guess I'll have to stop shooting those 30 grain Pyrodex Pistol pellets out of it! LOL
 
Man! I've been a shootin' 25 gr charges in mine since I bought it from Cabela's!

25 grs of loose FFFg Triple Seven no less!

Guess I'm lucky to be alive! :D

It's one hell of a nice gun BTW. For $179...... hard to beat!

I have quite a few handguns and it is by far my favorite...........
 
If anyone is interested, the very best bullet I have found in terms of accuracy is the Buffalo Bullet in yellow sabot 240 grain hollow point boat tail. Tested in all three of my rifles. It is impossible to beat. They come 32 to a box around $15.00 so they aren't cheap.

I have approximated this bullet using MMP sabots and Speer 240 grain semiwadcutters in lead. The Speers are $10.00 a hundred and the sabots are $5.00 per 50. Damn close results.
 
what load do you use with the 240 gr Speer's :confused:

grains and type of powder. also just powder and bullet I presume :confused:
 
I have used up to 150 grains with the Speers semiwadcutter. It is Speer 44 CAL 240 GR .430 SWC #4660. You will find these in the handloaders section at the sporting goods store. Also Hornady and TC sabots can be found anywhere that has BP supplies, I happen to like the MMP sabots the best. I buy the MMP sabots sized .430 50 cal from cabelas. The bullet goes in a sabot! They make great practice loads. I have found they shoot very tight groups with 80 grains of T7. Same as my favorite Buffalo bullet. The Buffalo bullet however will retain it's accuracy with hotter loads than the Speer does.

Another one worth mentioning from Cabelas is the Precision Rifles Dead Center Lead Bullet, w/plastic tip in orange sabot. that one is 240 Dead Center .40/.50 caliber good long range choice.

The Speer for $10.00 a hundred is hard to beat.
 
Whisk,

It's actually a pistol bullet meant to be loaded into .44-caliber cartridges (.44 Magnum, .44 Special). He's talking about buying the bullets and sabots seperate and making a saboted combination out of them.

marcseatac,

I can beat $10/100. How about $27 for 500, OTD? ;) Bulk 240gr lead SWC, Northeast Precision, sized .430".

How do you like the MMPs versus the Hornady and TC sabots? I've tried the TCs with OK results in .50/.44 and have a package of Hornadys to try. I thought about buying some MMPs and some .452" bullets for my TC.
 
P-990,

That is a good deal on SWC. The MMP sabots kind of remind me of the ones that are used in the Buffalo Bullets. They have a consistant feel in loading. I haven't had any problem having to pound them down. They are similar to the Hornadys. The MMPs seem to work better with the wadcutters and the Hornady TC type I like with jacketed bullets. There isn't really a huge difference. The difference may be more specific to what barrel you are using. That's good to know about the bulk price I need to look around. I wouldn't mind having a big store of sabots and bullets!
 
cva

after reading the forum i think i blew it i just bought the CVA kodiac pro magnum from cabellas now you guys got me worried about this thing blowing up in my face i called cabellas they said return the gun no problem so i think im going with the Thompson/Center Omega .50-Caliber i should have read this before i bought this firearm so any suggestions please feel free to post your thoughts
thank you
gary
 
Go back and read the dates on these posts. CVA is still in business, they have not been sued by dozens of widows demanding compensation for wrongful deaths. Wakeman has pretty much been discredited although he continues his crusade without the support of the vast majority of muzzleloader shooters. I suggest you also use the power of the internet to find documentation of any incidents - if there were any, they'd be out there.
 
thanks i have been doing more research and really cant find anything lately on the internet accept for the same source you just said i"m new to black powder rifles (i've shot black powder wheel guns in 44 cal) i read good reports and some negative and the dates got me to think even more that why would they sell a firearm that would explode in your face thanks again gary
 
Info on CVA's new Bergara Barrels from a real Pro

Last night curiosity got the best of me and I uncovered the Rockwell hardness tester to check out the hardness of the Bergara Encore barrels.

"Cheap, Soft Spanish guns" has traditionally sometimes been true, unfortunately, which I can personally vouche for in regard to some I have had such as a Llama 1911 type .45 ACP that had the slide showing signs of stretching after very little use. Likewise, my .45 Firestar shows signs of stretching with only a few Federal +Ps run through it.

Likewise, Taurus handguns from Brazil once had a reputation for being cheaply made, but today it is another story entirely with Taurus putting out superb guns that rival the very best. Frankly, I have picked up several Taurus wheel guns that left me lusting for one myself!

Over the past year and a half doing machine work on Bergara barrels, I have rechambered, cut and crowned, relined, had numerous barrels cut rifle rebored to larger calibers, drilled and tapped, and cut my TBOSS into them.

Their steel machines VERY nicely. Harking back to the days when I did a lot of cut rifling reboring, off the cuff in terms of machineability, I would put the Bergara Encore barrel steel somewhere between early Winchester stainless steel and Ruger's blued, chrome-moly, steel for machining easily and very cleanly.

Cut rifle reboring will tell you more about the machining qualities of barrel steel probably better than any other test. The Bergara barrels I have had rebored recently have cut rifled beautifully!

Internal finishes and the costs to produce those finishes are in part a function of how readily the steel machines and is reflected in the finishes of both the bores and the chambers of the Bergara barrels and their excellent price points.

The point of this Newsletter is this. Has anything by way of barrel hardness (ie, tensile strength) been sacrificed to get these nice finishes at the price we pay for the product?

Drum rollllllll:

Blued steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardness tested at Rc 25.
Stainless steel Bergara Encore barrels Rockwell hardenss tested Rc 17.
(Their Encore muzzle loader barrels are made from the same steel as their rifle barrels.)

How does this compare with other high power rifle barrels?

Quick summary of checks I have made over the years:

Older vintages of military Mauser barrels and early 1903 Springfield .30/06 manganese steel barrels around Rc 10.

Later Springfield .30/06 barrels made from what P.O. Ackley said was "WD4140," WD meaning "War Department", was around Rc17, the average hardness of "normalized," ie, air cooled 4140 steel.

The majority of commercial barrels from Winchester, Remington, Ruger, etc. tested around Rc 24-26, while at the time I tested them, the Savage 110 barrels were right up there at around Rc 30-32.

Shilen barrels at the time were Rc 19 while Douglas was around Rc 25.

Current Shilen barrels run around Rc 29-30.

Most 416 stainless rifle barrels are around Rc 20, +/-.

As you can see, barrel steel hardnesses range all over the planet, over the entire hardness range from dead soft annealed up through about Rc 32, the upper end of the hardness range that still readily permits the types of machining operations involved in making barrels.

Bottom line:
The Bergara Encore barrels made in Bergara, Spain are right where they need to be for hardness, which determines in large part the tensile strength of the steel.

"Soft Spanish guns" does not apply here!

Another plus for Bergara barrels!

Mike Bellm
_________________


cva's barrels in the past did not have a problem blowing up, they had a problem with breech plugs blowing OUT Thats on the 1995-1996 models only.

Ask randy about the savage muzzleloaders that first came out with bad breech plugs and were blowing apart. Toby Bridges would know.
 
cva

heres what CVA sent me its long but good info

Gary,



Thanks for taking the time to write. The Kodiak Pro rifles have a Bergara Barrel that is manufactured in our factory in Bergara Spain (see www.bergarabarrels.com ). Bergara Barrels is one of the fastest growing, and certainly one of the most technically advanced barrel making facilitiies in the world.



I am sure you are reading the “opinions” of Randy Wakeman. Randy is certainly a talented and persuasive writer. But unfortunately he is a little misguided. His online articles are packed with untruths, half-truths and misleading statements designed to turn shooters away from CVA products. I think if you go back and read these articles again with an open mind you will see that this guy is on some sort of vendetta and has really gone off the deep end in his hatred of our company. Why??? I don’t know, I wish I did. O’Neil Williams, the host of the popular hunting and fishing show Outside with O’Neil Williams, recently forwarded a similar email to our company CEO. Attached is the response. I have sent it to you because this letter explains things pretty well. Please take the time to read it. If, after reading this letter, you still have doubts, please send me your telephone number and I will be happy give you a call. In the mean time I suggest that you do as all of the editors of the major gun magazines are doing….ignore him.



Many regards,





Mark Hendricks

VP of Technical Development

Blackpowder Products, Inc

770-449-4687, ext 115

heres the attachment
From: Dudley McGarity
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 9:28 AM
To: 'oneilloutside@mindspring.com'
Subject: RE: FW: Concerned CVA Hunterbolt owner

O’Neill:

Thank you for passing on your viewer’s concerns about the most recent Randy Wakeman web blog. Unfortunately, we have received quite a few inquiries regarding the garbage that this guy posts on the internet. Randy Wakeman is from the Chicago area and apparently makes the bulk of his income performing magic tricks in Chicago bar rooms. From what we know, he has never made any substantial amount of money as a “journalist” – as is evidenced by the fact that, to my knowledge, no respectable gun magazine has ever published anything that he has written. Not surprising really, as these publications are very concerned about maintaining their integrity. This is obviously not a concern of Mr. Wakeman or some of the persons and/or companies that he is, from all appearances, associated with in his smear campaign against BPI and our CVA brand. I am sure, however, that he is a very good magician, as he is obviously very capable of deceiving people in to believing whatever he wants them to believe, as is evidenced by Greg’s email to you. On a side note, you can actually see Mr. Wakeman on You Tube doing his magic tricks. It is really quite funny.

O’Neill, you have been working with us for a long time now, you have visited our factory, and you have shot our guns thousands of times, so I know that I am preaching to the choir on this. However, you may often have to address these types of emails, so I do want to make a few brief points about some of the things Mr. Wakeman says about CVA, BPI, and our manufacturer and owner, Dikar.

• Test Firing -- Mr. Wakeman denigrates us for not test firing every single muzzleloader that we produce. What he fails to mention is that no other major muzzleloading manufacturer test fires all of their guns either -- not T/C, not Knight, not Traditions. So, why does he not call all of them to task also? That is a good question, and one that I do not have an answer for. Are they paying him off? Who knows? Certainly, if Mr. Wakeman feels that all muzzleloaders should be test fired, this is a valid opinion, but singling out CVA alone as a “menace” is ridiculous and dishonest. As of now, industry standards and government regulations in the USA do not require, or even recommend, the proof firing of muzzleloaders prior to sale. In some other countries, such proof firing is required for any gun, center-fire or muzzleloader, to be sold. Any CVA gun (or T/C, or Knight, or Traditions) sold in these countries would by law have to be proof fired before it could be legally sold. Of course, being the master of illusion that he is, Mr. Wakeman does not mention this in his article. Instead, he states only that CVA guns are “illicit and illegal” in several foreign countries.

• CVA Voluntary Recall -- Yes, CVA did have a recall of one design of in-line gun that was made in 1995 and 1996 -- that’s almost 15 years ago! This is no secret. In fact, the recall is still in effect and we mention this in all of our catalogs and on our web page. The necessity for this recall made for some very difficult times for our Company, and indeed for some people who were injured with these guns. However, CVA took full responsibility at that time, and BPI (the current owner of the CVA brand) is continuing the efforts to find all 80,000 of these guns. So far, about 96% have been accounted for. For those who were injured with these guns, CVA or BPI has worked with those persons in good faith and given monetary settlements in the more serious cases. Because we have taken responsibility for these guns, no case involving a recall gun has ever gone to trial.

• Other Gun Failures – Mr. Wakeman makes mention of other (non-recall) CVA guns that have failed. Have there been such accidents? Yes, there have been, just as there have been with T/C guns, Knight guns, and Traditions guns. Muzzleloading can be a very dangerous activity, especially if proper safety precautions are not followed. And, for sure, CVA is more exposed to this kind of thing because we sell from two to ten times more guns than any other manufacturer. We have seen guns fail due to being double loaded, loaded with smokeless powder, short started, shot with the barrel obstructed, etc., etc.,. You name it, we have seen it. These types of accidents can, and do, happen with all brands of muzzleloaders, but, for some reason, Mr. Wakeman only writes about those that happen with a CVA. Only in one case am I aware of Mr. Wakeman writing about any accident involving a muzzleloader other than a CVA. The accident occurred with a Savage muzzleloader (and Mr. Wakeman just happens to be on Savage’s payroll). Anyway, a famous muzzleloading expert and writer by the name of Toby Bridges had an accident with a Savage. Unlike his positions when a CVA gun is involved, Mr. Wakeman implied that Toby Bridges misused the gun -- which he possibly could have, but such latitude is never afforded to CVA by Mr. Wakeman.


That’s just three, O’Neill. I could go on and on, but I am not sure that your computer could handle the volume if I were to defend BPI/CVA against every false accusation that Mr. Wakeman has made against us. Why does he do it? Well, it could be that Savage (a competitor of CVA) encourages him to defame us. Many of our competitors are very frustrated in their attempts to compete with CVA, as we have been the number one selling brand of muzzleloader for almost a decade now. I hope, however, that this is not true, as Savage is a very well respected company within our industry. However, that being said, I cannot understand why Savage, or its president, Ron Coburn, would associate themselves either directly or indirectly with this kind of trash. Another explanation could be that Mr. Wakeman is getting paid in some way by the lawyers that he recommends to persons who have had accidents with CVA guns. From all appearances, he is a “rainmaker” for this one particular law firm, so generating business for them by whipping up all of this stuff on the internet may well indeed be another source of income for this self proclaimed gun expert. Or, does he just carry out vendettas for this law firm? He seems pretty tight with them, and they are the only law firm that has ever taken BPI/Dikar/CVA to trial – a case that they lost by unanimous verdict.

In the end, who knows what motivates Mr. Wakeman to pursue so voraciously his “internet terrorism” of our Company. O’Neill, you have been a great friend to CVA for many years. You and I both have shot these guns together. I started with the Company right about the time that the problem with the recall guns began. Since that time, I and my employees have worked very hard to rebuild the CVA brand, and we have done so, making it the number one muzzleloading brand in the USA. Over the past 14 years I have tested each model personally. I have shot our CVA guns thousands of times. Our employees and our families shoot them. You shoot them on TV. We sponsor shoots with consumers, Boy Scouts, Bass Pro, Cabela’s, gun writers, etc., etc., -- and never, not even once, has a CVA gun failed in any of these activities.

Sorry to go on for so long, O’Neill, but this situation really bothers me. Not that I am all that mad, but more so just disappointed. Disappointed that anyone could stoop as low as Mr. Wakeman and his associates have done. It says a lot about the culture we live in today, doesn’t it? I guess the internet has become the “National Enquirer” of the modern age -- a place where anyone can say anything about anyone, no matter how false or misleading, and then claim that it is all protected by “freedom of speech.” The internet is indeed the refuge of last resort for Mr. Wakeman and his lot, unencumbered by editors, fact checkers, or any sense of journalistic integrity.

Best regards,

Dudley McGarity
CEO

www.bpiguns.com

1-800-320-8767 Ext 107
Fax 770-242-8546


From: ONeill Williams [mailto:oneilloutside@mindspring.com]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:18 PM
 
Muzzle Loaders

I have an old CVA Kentucky. Old meaning about 23 years old. I also own several other flints and cappers. I have not had any problems with any of them at full charges, ball and mini's. I think most people today think muzzle loading is where you put a 209 in the breach with a little plastic thingy, that also contains solidified powder. Muzzle loading to me is cap or flint, powder, patch, ball and pack with a rod.

As for made outside of the states: If it is from Italy, Germany or CZ buy it with confidence. If it was made elswhere, be cautious.
 
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