Safety and the Constitution

Long Path, go ahead and argue with Madison if you'd like.
If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress. Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
and more...
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172506&page=2&perpage=40#post1591390

The reversal of Plessy had nothing to do with difficulty in figuring out what the 14th amendment meant. Brown I was ultimately a good decision, but it was in opposition to hundreds of years of accepted racism, segregation, and slavery. The 13th explicitly got rid of slavery, but the 14th did not explicitly get rid of segregation; just after the 14th amendment was ratified, Congress passed a law establishing racially-segregated schools in D.C. The court also used bad science to justify its decision (infamous footnote 11).

Brown I, ultimately, was about getting rid of racism by forcing whites to interact with blacks, even though, constitutionally, the decision was wrong.
 
Rich ... I think the idea is that if the US has jurisdiction over rights then they may take them away, but if Virginians have jurisdiction over our own rights then we will preserve them. Since the Civil War we are taught to see it the other way around, to think that we the people of the States would all violate our own rights and take away our own freedoms if not for the US having supreme authority. :barf:


KENTUCKY RESOLUTIONS OF 1798 (THOMAS JEFFERSON) - Resolved_, That it is true as a general principle, and is also expressly declared by one of the amendments to the Constitution, that "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people;" and that no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain, and were reserved to the States or the people: that thus was manifested their determination to retain to themselves the right of judging how far the licentiousness of speech and of the press may be abridged without lessening their useful freedom, and how far those abuses which cannot be separated from their use should be tolerated, rather than the use be destroyed. And thus also they guarded against all abridgment by the United States of the freedom of religious opinions and exercises, and retained to themselves the right of protecting the same, as this State, by a law passed on the general demand of its citizens, had already protected them from all human restraint or interference."


US V CRUIKSHANK (1875) - The first amendment to the Constitution prohibits Congress from abridging 'the right of the people to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.' This, like the other amendments proposed and adopted at the same time, was not intended to limit the powers of the State governments in respect to their own citizens, but to operate upon the National government alone. Barron v. The City of Baltimore, 7 Pet. 250; Lessee of Livingston v. Moore, id. 551; Fox v. Ohio, 5 How. 434; Smith v. Maryland, 18 id. 76; Withers v. Buckley, 20 id. 90; Pervear v. The Commonwealth, 5 Wall. 479; Twitchell v. The Commonwealth, 7 id. 321; Edwards v. Elliott, 21 id. 557. It is now too late to question the correctness of this construction. As was said by the late Chief Justice, in Twitchell v. The Commonwealth, 7 Wall. 325, 'the scope and application of these amendments are no longer subjects of discussion here.' They left the authority of the States just where they found it, and added nothing to the already existing powers of the United States.
...
The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed; but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens of the rights it recognizes, to what is called, in The City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. 139, the 'powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was, perhaps, more properly called internal police,' 'not surrendered or restrained' by the Constituton of the United States.



PRESSER V ILLINOIS (1886) - But a conclusive answer to the contention that this amendment prohibits the legislation in question lies in the fact that the amendment is a limitation only upon the power of congress and the national government, and not upon that of the state. It was so held by this court in the case of U. S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 , 553, in which the chief justice, in delivering the judgment of the court, said that the right of the people to keep and bear arms 'is not a right granted by the constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by congress. This is one of the amendments that has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government, leaving the people to look for their protection against any violation by their fellow-citizens of the rights it recognizes to what is called in City of New York v. Miln, 11 Pet. [116 U.S. 252, 102] 139, the 'powers which relate to merely municipal legislation, or what was perhaps more properly called internal police,' 'not surrendered or restrained' by the constitution of the United States.' See, also, Barron v. Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243; Fox v. State, 5 How. 410; Twitchell v. Com., 7 Wall. 321, 327; Jackson v. Wood, 2 Cow. 819;Com. v. Purchase, 2 Pick. 521; U. S. v. Cruikshank, 1 Woods, 308; North Carolina v. Newsom, 5 Ired. 250; Andrews v. State, 3 Heisk. 165; Fife v. State, 31 Ark. 455.


MILLER V TEXAS (1894) - In his motion for a rehearing, however, defendant claimed that the law of the state of Texas forbidding the carrying of weapons, and authorizing the arrest, without warrant, of any person violating such law, under which certain questions arose upon the trial of the case, was in conflict with the second and fourth amendments to the constitution of the United States, one of which provides that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and the other of which protects the people against unreasonable searches and seizures. We have examined the record in vain, however, to find where the defendant was denied the benefit of any of these provisions, and, even if he were, it is well settled that the restrictions of these amendments operate only upon the federal power, and have no reference whatever to proceedings in state courts. Barron v. Baltimore, 7 Pet. 243; Fox v. Ohio, 5 How. 410; Twitchell v. Com., 7 Wall. 321; The Justices v. Murray, 9 Wall. 274; U. S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 , 552; Spies v. Illinois, 123 U.S. 131 , 8 Sup. Ct. 21.
 
The thing is, the Constitution creates a US Judicial branch that has no delegated jurisdiction over matters between a Citizen and his State. The US is there to handle foreign affairs and limited delegated powers. Here is Article III:

Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; [See 11th Amendent]--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
 
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Hugh quoted Article III, Section 2, clause 1. but that is further modified by clause 2, below:

Article III, Section 2, Clause 2:
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

That portion of clause 2 that I highlighted, extends power to the SCOTUS to hold original jurisdiction to any case a State might be party to.. As in Citizen v. State or State v. citizen, the meaning of clause 1 (and the 11th amendment) notwithstanding.

Much has been said about the limits of the Federal Government and the relation of the BoR. Yet there are still some things that have been overlooked, both in this debate, by the Feds and the Court itself.

The BoR were amended to the Constitution, because there were enough anti-federalists within 5 states that would not have ratified the Constitution without them. They wanted absolute protection of what they termed inalienable rights, that on the surface, were not protected at all.

Remember, we had just fought and won a war with England. Arguably the super power of that time. They new that despite the Magna Carta and other protections, the Monarch had ruled with an iron fist in the colonies. They new that any government would at some point, enlarge itself to threaten the rights of the common man. The founders were by no means unlearned men. They were well educated scholars and legalists. They knew their history.

Despite Hamiltons' and Madisons' insistence that this new government could never usurp more power than was enumerated, Five states demanded a Bill of Rights be included, or they refused to ratify the Constitution. Since 9 of the 13 original colonies were required for ratification, this presented a dilemma. It was agreed that a Bill of Rights would be added to the Constitution as amendments, and the new government was ratified.

Twelve amendments were proposed, of which ten passed and became the BoR. The BoR did not grant any rights, rather they contained further declaratory clause and restrictions upon the federal government. (Says so in the preamble to the proposed amendments.) The thought being that of these specified rights (and those unspecified via the 9th) would keep the federal government from ever touching them. Contrary to the thoughts of today, the ideas of that time were that these rights were absolute.

If the Congress passed a law that curtailed the national freedom of assembly, then the Amendments took precedence over whatever power congress thought it had. At least that was the initial idea.

Very quickly and very early on however, the Courts allowed the government to restrict certain aspects, as long as the restriction was as narrow as it could be and it was a reasonable restriction. Later, the idea that the government could have a compelling interest was used to trample rights.

The Court realized very early, that it had no true power if the Executive or the Congress decided to ignore its rulings (see Marbury v. Madison). So it either passed rulings that meant little or placated either the Congress or the Executive, or sometimes, both. It has done so ever since its inception.

There is however, another thought that was never popular, and it was one of the Reasons that George Mason walked out of the Constitutional Convention. It is commonly known that Mason was for a Bill of Rights and walked out because of that. But the BoR issue was in direct response to this:

Article VI, clause 2:
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.


This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States...shall be the supreme Law of the Land.

Mason understood what the above meant. To a lessor extent, Madison understood. Which was why he changed his mind on the necessity of a BoR. At a later date, Jefferson understood. It was brought home by the Courts decision in Marbury v. Madison.

However, the Courts, the Congress and the Executives have all chosen to ignore this portion, except when it was convenient for them to exercise some power over the States and the populace, in order to achieve a specific goal. Arguments for increasing federal power have never used the Supremacy clause except in a very few and well defined areas.

The civil war was one of those areas. No state could leave the union without the permission of the Congress itself. Supremacy Clause. Later this was codified by SCOTUS in Texas v. White (1868).

Under the Supremacy Clause, no state can abrogate an individual right. Nor can the Feds themselves. While many would say that the amendments contained within the BoR did not affect the other articles of the Constitution (and many have made this argument and continue to make this argument), I submit that under the Supremacy Clause, any action by the Congress, the Executive, the Court, or the States that violate the BoR are made null and void at their inception.

Again, we come back to the Court. It has refused to uphold the Supreme Law of the Land, only in order that it may save face. Instead of standing firm on issues of Justice, it caves. Then it uses precedent (Stare Decisis) to further move us away from what was supposed to be a limited government with enumerated powers. This same reliance upon precedent has also been used to strip the states of their powers.

There was never a need for a 14th amendment, if the Constitution had been applied as it was written.

If the Court had stood up and gone on record to oppose the federal expansionists, we would not be where we are today. Regardless if the Executive or the Congress liked those decisions, they would be on record and perhaps the people would have taken them to task. Perhaps not. But the record of abuses would be concrete and not so convoluted that it takes a real effort to pin down when it began to happen.

Long Path posed the following (which I assumed to be in jest):
So why shouldn't the Necessary and Proper Clause, when applied to the power to provide for "the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States," allow the Government to trample a few rights?

And the answer is that the Supremacy Clause would forbid it. Anything that would touch upon the enumerated rights in the BoR would necessarily invalidate that legislation or regulation... Or any other thing that would touch upon those restrictions. Remember, whatever is amended takes priority over the former meaning.

The Federal government has no business in most of the areas that it now governs. Those are all areas of State Power. Unfortunately, we have always had a Court that was unwilling to take the lead.

Hugh writes:
The Constitution does not give all judicial power to the SCOTUS: it does not give them power over intrastate affairs i.e. matters between a citizen and his State.

Yes it does. And Art. III section 2 clause 2 gives the Court the power to litigate between a State and its citizen(s) if that State is infringing upon the rights of the citizenry (Supremacy Clause as it relates to the BoR).

...if the SCOTUS was supreme and whatever they said was the Constitution, then we could not possibly stray from the Constitution. Personally, I think we have strayed from the Constitution.

And that is my whole point. If they had the "balls" to stand up for what is right, instead of for political expediency, we would not be where we are. I absolutely agree with you, we have strayed very far from the Constitution and its plain meaning.
 
tyme said:
Brown I, ultimately, was about getting rid of racism by forcing whites to interact with blacks, even though, constitutionally, the decision was wrong.
Um, no-- Brown was about ending violations to the Equal Protection Clause by the de jure segregation that disallowed people the right to an equally-good education on the basis of race alone. "Ending racism" was NOT the court intent. Ending state-sponsored oppression was. Brown I found the violation, and Brown II gave the remedy, such as it was.

[I seriously wish I had more time on this-- it's a fun topic...]
 
Hugh quoted Article III, Section 2, clause 1. but that is further modified by clause 2, below:

Article III, Section 2, Clause 2:
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

That portion of clause 2 that I highlighted, extends power to the SCOTUS to hold original jurisdiction to any case a State might be party to.. As in Citizen v. State or State v. citizen, the meaning of clause 1 (and the 11th amendment) notwithstanding.

Well ... sometimes I think the Constitution's true color is plaid. I do not believe the SCOTUS can have jurisdiction over every affair involving a State and still be part of a limited federal government. Suppose for instance that Virginians want to pass any law ... say we want to ban bubble gum. We might encourage our reps to ban bubble gum, we may vote for reps who will ban bubble gum, and what is the point if the feds can come along and say that we have a God given right to chew bubble gum? We may as well let the US pick our reps for us if that's the way of it.

And what do you mean "clause 1 and the 11th amendment notwithstanding"? Didn't the States request the 11th Amendment specifically to clarify that the US was not to be the judge of affairs between the Citizens of one State and another State? I think the SCOTUS has no jurisdiction over affairs between a Citizen and his State, and I do not think the BOR was intended to apply to the States, Clause II notwitstanding.

I have read what each State requested for the original amendments. The States considered amendments to be one issue and a BOR another. For instance, I believe that Virginia requested 20 modifications/changes/amendments to the Constitution, and also a BOR with 20 Articles. You say that five States requested a BOR, but a majority of seven States requested an amendment clarifying that the US was limited to delegated powers. I do not think the Tenth Amendment allows the BOR to be construed so as to give the federal government jurisdiction over "individual rights".

I don't want to go on too long here ... the US is only supreme within its limited jurisdiction, and the US does not have jurisdiction over rights. The BOR does not delegate the US jurisdiction over rights. It cannot, because a government with jurisdiction over rights is not a limited federal government it is a nation/state government.

Secession was/is a States' right. The federalist papers promised that the States were to be bound only by their own voluntary act. And many States, including mine, clarified when ratifying the Constitution that they reserved the right reclaim the powers being delegated.

I will end this post by listing what the States requested for the Tenth Amendment ... I think these requests are antithetical to the notion that the original amendments, the BOR, were intended to delegate power over "rights" to the US.

**********************************************
MA - "First, That it be explicitly declared that all Powers not expressly delegated by the aforesaid Constitution are reserved to the several States to be by them exercised."

NC - "I. THAT each state in the union shall, respectively, retain every power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by this constitution delegated to the Congress of the United States, or to the departments of the Federal Government."

NH - "First That it be Explicitly declared that all Powers not expressly & particularly Delegated by the aforesaid Constitution are reserved to the several States to be, by them Exercised."

NY - "that every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the Government thereof, remains to the People of the several States, or to their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same"

RI - "That the rights of the States respectively, to nominate and appoint all State Officers, and every other power, jurisdiction and right, which is not by the said constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States or to the departments of government thereof, remain to the people of the several states, or their respective State Governments to whom they may have granted the same"

SC - "This Convention doth also declare that no Section or paragraph of the said Constitution warrants a Construction that the states do not retain every power not expressly relinquished by them and vested in the General Government of the Union."

VA - "First, That each State in the Union shall respectively retain every power, jurisdiction and right which is not by this Constitution delegated to the Congress of the United States or to the departments of the Federal Government."
**********************************************
 
Um, no-- Brown was about ending violations to the Equal Protection Clause by the de jure segregation that disallowed people the right to an equally-good education on the basis of race alone. "Ending racism" was NOT the court intent. Ending state-sponsored oppression was. Brown I found the violation, and Brown II gave the remedy, such as it was.
I'm sure the court wanted black students and white students perpetually glowering at each other across the classroom. If the court wanted to end segregation and not end racism, they were wrong both constitutionally and morally.
 
Fact of the matter was, there WAS no "separate but equal." It wasn't equal. There was no equal protection. Because it is impossible to guarentee equality, separate but equal inherently means someone gets the short end of the stick. If everybody's glowering but getting the same quality of education, then at least we've got the equality part addressed (not fixed. Addressed.).

Look, it's not that I'm trying to tell you how I'd like it to be; that's not the issue. I'm telling you that's the reasoning behind the decision. And yeah, it was utterly Constitutional. You don't think some shennanigans took place around the passage of the BOR? :) There were lots of compromises made there, too. Just because Lew Rockwell doesn't like the way that the 14th was passed and assigns it the blame for political strife over the last century doesn't make it so. We'd have been harping on other chords, and some other ammendment would have to have been passed. But 14A and it's application on the dual State/Federal level has righted a lot of wrongs over the last 10 decades or so. The goal is not social change, but political equality. The social change will largely have to occur on its own.
 
Here, unlike Sweatt v. Painter, there are findings below that the Negro and white schools involved have been equalized, or are being equalized, with respect to buildings, curricula, qualifications and salaries of teachers, and other "tangible" factors. ... We must look instead to the effect of segregation itself on public education.
The courts said they were equal.
 
You say that five States requested a BOR...

No Hugh, I said, "Five states demanded a Bill of Rights be included, or they refused to ratify the Constitution." They requested nothing. They demanded it.

I do not think the Tenth Amendment allows the BOR to be construed so as to give the federal government jurisdiction over "individual rights".

The BOR does not delegate the US jurisdiction over rights,

I don't believe anyone has said this, Hugh. I know that I never have!

You have raised this point several times. I'm not at all sure why you do. I think we all agree that the BoR was a series of restrictions placed upon the Government.

Regardless, you haven't answered that little bit about the Supremacy Clause, as it relates this current discussion.
 
The courts said they were equal.
Read on. The very state of separateness was inequal.

The court references McLaurin v. Oklahoma State Regents, in which the de facto reality of inequality in a system that is de jure equal is manifest. The poor fellow in that case had a completely separate system within the system... and received such inequal treatment that it makes you want to cry.

I'm not talking feelings-- I'm talking bare facts.
 
No Hugh, I said, "Five states demanded a Bill of Rights be included, or they refused to ratify the Constitution." They requested nothing. They demanded it.

I don't think so ... I believe that NC is the only State that decided to make demands before ratifying the Constitution. I think the other States, such as my State of VA, ratified the Constitution while requesting amendments/BOR. Here is the quote from the VA ratification:

"Subsequent Amendments agreed to in Convention as necessary to the proposed Constitution of Government for the United States, recommended to the consideration of the Congress which shall first assemble under the said Constitution to be acted upon according to the mode prescribed in the fifth article thereof"

I would say that "recommended to the consideration of the Congress" is a request, not a demand.



I don't believe anyone has said this [the Tenth Amendment allows the BOR to be construed so as to give the federal government jurisdiction over "individual rights"], Hugh. I know that I never have! You have raised this point several times. I'm not at all sure why you do.

Didn't you say that the BOR give the feds jurisdiction over rights? You said "I submit that under the Supremacy Clause, any action by ... the States that violate the BoR are made null and void at their inception." I understood that to mean that the US has supreme jurisdiction when it comes to the BOR i.e. I understood you to say that the US has jurisdiction over rights.


Regardless, you haven't answered that little bit about the Supremacy Clause, as it relates this current discussion.

I think I did. I said that the US is only supreme within its delegated jurisdiction, they are not supreme over "rights" as I understood you to say. Here's a quote from Gregory v Ashcroft:

The Federal Government holds a decided advantage in this delicate balance: the Supremacy Clause. U.S. Const., Art. VI. As long as it is acting within the powers granted it under the Constitution, Congress may impose its will on the States. Congress may legislate in areas traditionally regulated by the States. This is an extraordinary power in a federalist system. It is a power that we must assume Congress does not exercise lightly.
 
"Read on. The very state of separateness was inequal. "
Again, I don't think separate means unequal, or more accurately I don't think Congress intended it that way when they passed the 14th Amendment, or else why would they establish segregated schools in D.C. right after doing their part to pass the 14th amendment? I don't like segregation, and I wouldn't want to see Brown reversed, but the proper way to deal with the situation is to pass another amendment. Ideally, the amendment would be passed without first overturning Brown; then they could do whatever they wanted WRT Brown, and there would be continuity and continued fairness under the law.

If Japanese and Chinese and Korean communities had (legally enforced) segregated schools because they didn't want other races like whites lowering the standards of education, would that be unequal in your opinion? Segregation is a curse and a blessing. I just don't think it represents inequality.

It is obvious that words and phrases have different meanings in different contexts, right? "Equal protection" may mean one thing in 1868 and something else today. What it meant in 1954 is debatable, unless you think the Supreme Court is chief arbiter of semantics.
 
In the ratifying documents of five states, requests* or demands for a bill of rights were included in the text, along with suggested lists (see the ratifying documents of Massachusetts, South Carolina, New Hampshire, Virginia, and New York. Rhode Island also included a list, but they ratified the Constitution after the first Congress approved the Bill of Rights).

Massachusetts: Ratification of the Constitution by the State of Massachusetts, February 6, 1788. Massachusetts was the sixth state to do so. Massachusetts's ratification message was the first to include a list of desired changes to the Constitution, some of which were to protect states and some of which were to protect individuals.

South Carolina: Ratification of the Constitution by the State of South Carolina, May 23, 1788. South Carolina was the eighth state to do so. South Carolina's ratification message included several small suggested changes to the Constitution.

New Hampshire: Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New Hampshire, June 21, 1788. New Hampshire was the ninth state to do so, and with its ratification, the Constitution was officially in effect. New Hampshire's ratification message included several suggested changes to the Constitution

Virginia: Ratification of the Constitution by the State of Virginia, June 26, 1788. Virginia ratified the Constitution in two steps. The first was the declaration of ratification. The second was a recommendation that a bill of rights be added to the Constitution, and that a list of amendments also be added in accordance with Article 5.

New York: Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York, July 26, 1788. New York was the eleventh state to do so. The assent of Virginia and of New York was seen as essential to the success of the Constitution, and though they were tenth and eleventh to ratify, it is generally agreed that until they both ratified, success was in doubt. New York's ratification message is the longest by far, and includes a declaration of rights and many suggested changes to the Constitution.

Rhode Island: Ratification of the Constitution by the State of Rhode Island, May 29, 1790. Rhode Island was the thirteenth state to do so. Rhode Island's ratification message is lengthy, with a list similar to that of New York's, listing a bill of rights and listing several proposed amendments. Most of the amendments were not original, having been suggested in prior ratification documents. Rhode Island was the last of the original thirteen states to ratify the Constitution.

*Merriam-Webster Online
Main Entry: re·quest
Pronunciation: ri-'kwest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English requeste, from Middle French, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin requaesta, from feminine of requaestus, past participle of requaerere to require
1 : the act or an instance of asking for something
2 : something asked for
3 : the condition or fact of being requested <available on request>
4 : the state of being sought after : DEMAND

A "request" is nothing more than a politically nice way to DEMAND something.

Didn't you say that the BOR give the feds jurisdiction over rights?

Regardless of how we each might interpret the disputed clauses 1 or 2 of Art. III sec. 2, there is clear wording that in all other cases, the Supreme Court has appellate jurisdiction. And again, under the Supremacy Clause, what it rules is final (until it rules differently). If it is any other way, then the Rule of Law is trashed completely.

This in no way says they are supreme "over" our rights. It says that they can adjudicate whether or not a right has been infringed or abridged (use whatever term you are comfortable with). If not the SCOTUS, then just who has the power to define when rights are violated?

Does this mean that they are always correct in their judgments? No. I think it safe to say that the Court has allowed for specious arguments in order to expand the governments reach to the detriment of inalienable rights. Facetious arguments like: Compelling Interest; Substantial Effects; Rational Basis, to name three, come immediately to mind.

In your last quote (Gregory v Ashcroft), you highlighted the phrase, "As long as it is acting within the powers granted it under the Constitution," as part of your argument against the power of Congress to enact unconstitutional law.... The problem here is that it is this same Court that says what is or isn't constitutional. The telling feature of your quote is that last sentence that states, "It is a power that we must assume Congress does not exercise lightly." Why must they assume anything about a body that has consistently been able to expand their powers with the express consent of this Court?
 
Again, I don't think separate means unequal, or more accurately I don't think Congress intended it that way when they passed the 14th Amendment, or else why would they establish segregated schools in D.C. right after doing their part to pass the 14th amendment?
If Japanese and Chinese and Korean communities had (legally enforced) segregated schools because they didn't want other races like whites lowering the standards of education, would that be unequal in your opinion? Segregation is a curse and a blessing. I just don't think it represents inequality.
Okay, I should have just quoted your whole post. :)
Um, Justin? I'll say again: you and I are white boys, and segregation sure wouldn't hurt you and me much at all, would it? Segregation may be just fine... until you're the one segregated against. Segregation is not about people operating within little impenetrable spheres-- it's about fences that you are on the inside of or the outside of.

You actually think there's not an inherent problem to "legally enforced" segregation? Fascinating. Look, I don't necessarily have a problem with private businesses that don't want to serve folks for arbitrary reasons. The Heart of Atlanta/Katzenbach v. McClung (the Obie's Barbecue cases, 1964) were a pretty specious method of using the Commerce Clause to rip inroads for the civil rights movement, when they made private white businesses serve black folk because the food and business was interstate. But when the government enforces segregation by saying blue folks cannot attend public purple folks' schools, there's a serious problem.

Question: if everything was so equal, how come I'm not finding any cases of white folks having fought to get into black schools?

At the time of the XIV A, there was no need to be more specific, because there was plenty of de facto segregation, anyway. The Incorporation Doctrine hadn't yet been applied.
 
It turns out that my claim about D.C. schools is wrong; Congress did not establish segregated schools after passing the 14th amendment.
http://www.eppc.org/printVersion/print_pub.asp?pubID=2336
As the brilliant scholar (and now tenth-circuit judge) Michael McConnell explains in his 1995 Virginia Law Review article "Originalism and the Desegregation Decisions": "At no time after the Fourteenth Amendment did Congress vote in favor of segregated schools in the District [of Columbia] (although Congress appropriated money for the segregated schools that already existed)." In addition, the restrictions of the Fourteenth Amendment apply only to states, not to Congress, so congressional action with respect to D.C. schools provides a shaky foundation for any inference as to the contemporaneous understanding of the Fourteenth Amendment.
I think, however, the point stands; the reasoning is a bit more complicated and a bit weaker, so I'll outline it.

As the above quote points out, the equal protection clause only applies to states; but then, why did Congress immediately end segregation in the District after Brown (see the quote immediately below)? They had no legal duty to do so, since the 14th Amendment didn't apply to them. They must have felt a moral obligation to end segregation, right?

If the Congress in 1868 believed that the 14th amendment banned segregation, why did they allow segregation to continue in the district for over 80 years?! The school in the link/quote below was built over 60 years after the ratification of the 14th amendment, and Congress was still using newly built schools as parts of a segregated school system.

From http://www.exploredc.org/index.php?id=332 ...
The school was dedicated May 25, 1934 during the administration of Dr. Frank W. Ballou, Superintendent of Schools, in one of Washington's most affluent neighborhoods just above Georgetown in the Northwest quadrant of the city. When the school was established in 1934, the city maintained a policy of segregated public schools; but, the policy was abandoned in response to the 1954 decision in the federal case of Brown v. the Board of Education.

You actually think there's not an inherent problem to "legally enforced" segregation? Fascinating.

As I've tried to say, I think the decision was wrong based on the limits of what SCOTUS is supposed to do. I think the decision was right morally and conceptually, but some things the SCOTUS just isn't supposed to do, even if they're morally right.

I think that given Congress's failure to end segregation in D.C. schools, Congress did not intend the 14th Amendment to abolish segregation when Congress voted to pass it (since Federal Congressional vote is part of the amendment process); therefore, Brown was decided wrongly if the Court is supposed to judge based on constitutionality and not morality. The former is, I think, the accepted mode of judicial interpretation. Juries have the right to nullify laws based on their opinions about morality, but not even the Supreme Court has that power.

If you can supply an explanation for why Congress agreed with Brown in 1868 but sat on its hands tolerating racism in the District's schools for several generations after that, that may change my opinion of Brown's constitutional correctness. It simply makes sense to me that if Congress intended the 14th Amendment to "obliterate the race line from our systems of governments," they would have ended all forms of de jure segregation in the District as well.

I ask again, do you really think a phrase like "equal protection under the law" means the same thing to most people in 1868 as it does in 1954? The meanings of words change. Just look at what's happened to the word "regulation." If you don't think the meaning of the phrase "equal protection" changed between 1868 and 1954, you need to explain Congress's lack of action WRT the District's segregated schools. If you think the meaning did change, but that the Court was correct in using the 1954 meaning, what right do we have to complain if congress "regulates" the militia a little bit, and if the Supreme Court upholds those laws because they're constitutional under the modern definition of "regulate?"

If the SCOTUS can re-interpret the 14th Amendment to make "separate but equal" unconstitutional, when Congress itself didn't seem to think separate but equal was an equal protection problem in the 19th century, why can't the SCOTUS re-interpret the 2nd amendment as a collective right, or reinterpret "arms" to exclude firearms, or something of that sort?
 
Regardless of how we each might interpret the disputed clauses 1 or 2 of Art. III sec. 2, there is clear wording that in all other cases, the Supreme Court has appellate jurisdiction. And again, under the Supremacy Clause, what it rules is final (until it rules differently). If it is any other way, then the Rule of Law is trashed completely.

This in no way says they are supreme "over" our rights. It says that they can adjudicate whether or not a right has been infringed or abridged (use whatever term you are comfortable with). If not the SCOTUS, then just who has the power to define when rights are violated?

The power to define our rights was not delegated to the US, so it remains where it was - with the States. And that is the supreme law of the land. The original intent is that Virginians decide the rights of Virginians, and Californians decide the rights of Californians. That is the independence declared on that 4th of July so long ago, and reiterated by the 2nd Article of Confederation, and then by the Tenth Amendment to the US Constitution.

If the US can adjudicate whether or not a right has been infringed, then the US has jurisdiction over rights, and then the US government is not a limited federal government. The appellate power, like the supremacy clause and Art III, cannot be construed so as to make the US supreme in all matters. The US is limited to delegated powers and they do not have jurisdiction over rights.
 
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