Safety and the Constitution

So I guess I don't get Rich's point.
But of course you do and you prove it in your very next sentence:
The Constitution exists to frame the discussion of citizen's rights

Words like "safety", "freedom" and "liberty" are discussion framing words in the context of Constitutional Congress. They were necessary to demonstrate intent and raison d'etre of the documents. Their presence or absence is therefore noteworthy.

Terms like "right to self protection", "environmental protection" are not framing terms in the context of the Constitution. First of all, they're operative not foundational; second, they don't exist in the Federal Constitution because the Feds were never intended to have a say in those matters.

Law is used to delineate rights, and the Constitution tells us how to make those laws.
Give the man a Cupie Doll. Exactly almost. The BoR required no further legislation, thank you.

If the citizens of this country decide to make state supplied "safety" a right, then it is. A better point to be made is that no one has actually passed laws of that kind, despite many pretending they already exist.
Sorry, I totally lost you on that. The state doesn't "supply" safety; the individual does. And no one here has "pretended" otherwise.
Rich
 
Rich,

I thought you said: "Just for kicks I decided to trace the concept that it's the government's job to keep us all safe from ourselves." That is the "concept" I'm referring to some people "pretending" exists.

And the state certainly COULD supply safety - it is just preferable that they aren't asked to try. Padded cells will certainly keep one "safe" from crime, suicide, cigarettes and UV rays.


I just don't see why this would be considered a Constitutional issue. Like I said, those documents don't refer to any sort of defense of person - by the state or individual.

You can't make the argument that something you are against is without merit just because it does not appear in the Constitution. Many of the things you (we) are in favor of are also not in the Constitution.
 
Like I said, those documents don't refer to any sort of defense of person - by the state or individual.

That's because the Constitution is a restriction on government, not you or me. It's merely a List Of Things The Government May Do. The Bill of Rights, as the addendum, is just a List Of Things The Government May Definitely Not Do. It's not a document telling Joe Citizen what he May Or May Not Do.
 
Exactly. That's why I'm confused about it being used in an argument against ubiquitous law enforcement.
 
Handy:

- The Constitution delineates Federal powers.
- The Federal government has perverted the Constitution, pulling powers from the States and the People on the argument of "safety".
- The Constitution is fairly mute on the concept of "safety" but regularly references "freedom" and "liberty". Safety is not a valid reason for infringement; it's an excuse.

What's to understand?
I never put this forth as some breakthrough legal challenge to Federal powers. I simply stated that we all need to remember that "Safety" is not the root password to the Constitution; it's the root password to its destruction.
Rich
 
I had thought it was an argument, not a reminder. My mistake.


Arguments need to be strong at their core, or they risk weakening the cause they are supposed to support.

But I guess a reminder to the choir needs less solid ground. :)
 
What would you suggest if the people of Texas elect reps and senators who pass a law allowing police to [do awful things]

I think you are not talking about a check on government but a check on society/culture.

On the one hand, there is the 14th "Amendment", which would prohibit Texas from passing the specific discriminatory laws which you mention. But then, what many people want is to go beyond any specific limits on the States and simply say that no State can violate anyone's rights. I do not think that makes sense because what libertarians call "rights" are not political rights such as the Constitution is concerned with but rather facets of society/culture, and the Constitution is intended to leave it up to the people of each State to form their own society/culture.
 
what libertarians call "rights" are not political rights such as the Constitution is concerned with
I disagree, Hugh. We are most especially speaking of enumerated Rights of the People. The right to be free in our "persons, houses, papers AND effects" from "unreasonable search and seizure" is pretty clear to me.

Some would argue, "Yes, but that doesn't apply to you when you're driving."
"Why not?"

"Because driving isn't a Right, it's a 'privilege' conferred on you by a benevolent State."

"Well, I might argue that making use of a highway I paid for is a Right, but let's not go there just now. How can the exercise of a 'privilege' negate an UNDERLYING RIGHT that TRANSCENDS even the CONSTITUTION?"

Answer, "It Can't".
You either believe that the Fourth Amendment follows you wherever you go or you believe that it's only valid at the times, places and in the activities .gov chooses.

Rich

ps: Neither can Any State's Law override the Federal BoR. It's subordinate TO them.
 
I agree that the rights depend entirely on culture, and that governments can theoretically take away anything that's not a right. We have a culture, and it's the culture of the founders, whether we like it or not. Allowing citizens to create their own culture and enforce it by constructing a government to enforce their culture is the same as majority rule. Majority rule, mob rule, pure democracy, anarchy... call it what you want. It is pure evil. If there are few citizens, and if they are wise enough or if they are sheep but have wise and benevolent sheepdogs, the democracy will have wonderful laws for a time. Then other people arrive, some of the wise leave, and you get people voting against scaaary guns and people voting themselves welfare.

You expect no one to violate the 14th amendment? The TX constitution violates it. The U.S. constitution says the RKBA shall not be infringed, and the TX constitution says it shall not be infringed, except if the legislature thinks it can prevent crime by infringing upon it.

The Government is the people. Every single member of state and federal legislatures were elected, and none more than 6 years ago. The only check we have is the constitution. The more liberally you read it, the closer you get to supporting mob rule.
 
I'm surprised that no one caught this from Hugh and commented upon it!

Hugh wrote:
The author believes that the 14th was not intended to apply the BOR to the States and that it is an unconstitutional assumption of power by the federal government. He says that this fundamental error is eroding federalism and that a reversal of the incorporation doctrine is necessary to return the 14th Amendment to its proper function.

Hugh, the author is absolutely incorrect. By its very definition, an amendment to the Constitution cannot be unconstitutional.

Now, as to its interpretation... That's the debatable point. But you also have to understand, that in interpretation, once the Supreme Court rules on the meaning, that's the meaning. At least, until a subsequent Court says otherwise. That's the principle behind Judicial Review, whether we like it or not. (and why the decision on Raich is so disturbing)
 
We are most especially speaking of enumerated Rights of the People. The right to be free in our "persons, houses, papers AND effects" from "unreasonable search and seizure" is pretty clear to me.

Please allow me to clarify what I mean when I say the Constitution regards political rights and not libertarian/individual rights.

A political right is a right of the people but it regards our form of government. If a people are going to have self-government or a "free State", then they must have a free press, armed people, a right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, and so on. The BOR is not just a random list of libertarian/individual rights, it is an enumeration of requirements for free government i.e. it regards political rights.

On the other hand there are libertarian/individual rights, such as the right to wear a hat or the right to whistle dixie. I assume a libertarian would say that people have a right to wear hats or to whistle dixie, but these things have nothing to do with self-government.

I believe the 4th Amendment regards government persecuting people because of their political views by ransacking their houses and such. What you speak of, driving down the road and being pulled over or stopped at a roadblock, is not an attempt by the government to silence you and prevent free government. And your being pulled over in your State does not seem to impact my State. So I do not see how being pulled over is a federal/interstate/4th Amendment issue, I think it is an intrastate affair.


Allowing citizens to create their own culture and enforce it by constructing a government to enforce their culture is the same as majority rule. Majority rule, mob rule, pure democracy, anarchy... call it what you want. It is pure evil.

Republicanism is not evil, it is good. Of course Virginians do not have a popular vote on everything and have mob rule, but we elect representatives and delegate them the power to make decisions for us. And we have a Constitution which lays down certain principles of government, one of which is that "a majority of the community hath an indubitable, inalienable, and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish it [government], in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the public weal". Virginia is a Commonwealth.

As Ronald Reagan said, "The people of the States are free, subject only to restrictions in the Constitution itself or in constitutionally authorized Acts of Congress, to define the moral, political, and legal character of their lives".

And if the people of the States cannot define their own society/culture, what possible powers can be reserved to them under the Tenth Amendment?

Hugh, the author is absolutely incorrect. By its very definition, an amendment to the Constitution cannot be unconstitutional.

Now, as to its interpretation... That's the debatable point. But you also have to understand, that in interpretation, once the Supreme Court rules on the meaning, that's the meaning. At least, until a subsequent Court says otherwise. That's the principle behind Judicial Review, whether we like it or not. (and why the decision on Raich is so disturbing)

The 14th "Amendment" is not really an amendment because it failed every part of the amendment process and was forced upon us at gunpoint. If you sign a contract because there is a gun to your head, that is not a valid contract, it is a criminal act. Don't you agree?

The Constitution creates a limited federal government and the 14th attempts to transform that form of government, by force, into an all powerful national government. I agree with the author that that is an unconstitutional assumption of power.

As to its interpretation, it is evident to me that the 14th passed because they said it passed and it means whatever they say it means. Again, that is unconstitutional. A handful of people in robes can't just make it up as they go along, the Constitution means something definite and that is why it is written down.

... Actually, the book didn't address the 14th having failed the amendment process, but it said something to the effect that the 14th was only intended to address racial discrimination, and that it was unconstitutional to use the amendment for other purposes.
 
Last edited:
Republicanism, pure democracy... they're both pure evil unless constrained by a written constitution that must be obeyed. Personally, I think the requirements on passing amendments to the federal constitution are not strict enough, and requirements for modifying state constitutions are no where near strict enough. Though requirements for modifying state constitutions should be slightly less than the other.

Read again what you quoted; people can define their own culture(s); they cannot use the machinery of the state to force their culture on others insofar as it differs from the founding culture.
 
Hugh wrote:The 14th "Amendment" is not really an amendment because it failed every part of the amendment process and was forced upon us at gunpoint. If you sign a contract because there is a gun to your head, that is not a valid contract, it is a criminal act. Don't you agree?

Yes and no. Unless we want to take up arms and re-fight the civil war, there is no point to it. And while I often hear the sabers being rattled, I don't see anyone, and I mean any state, taking up the call to secede.

After more than a hundred years, it is a settled fact that the 14th is here to stay. To simply say it is not really an amendment, is to ignore reality.

I think the 16th was passed unconstitutionally. But it's here to stay.

I think the 17th was the worst mistake we made. But its here to stay.

So I stand by my statement. An amendment to the Constitution, by its very existence, cannot be unconstitutional. As long as the original (because that part has never been amended) Constitution gives all Judicial Power to the Supreme Court, then whatever the Court rules, is final and is constitutional.

I won't mince words here. We either accept things as they are, or we work to change things within the system. The only other alternative is to muster a call for arms and revolt. Is this what you are doing?
 
I believe the 4th Amendment regards government persecuting people because of their political views by ransacking their houses and such. What you speak of, driving down the road and being pulled over or stopped at a roadblock, is not an attempt by the government to silence you and prevent free government. And your being pulled over in your State does not seem to impact my State. So I do not see how being pulled over is a federal/interstate/4th Amendment issue, I think it is an intrastate affair.
I believe you are dead wrong, Hugh. The 4th Amendment was never circumscribed to protect freedom of political views (that's covered under the First); nor is it limited to one's home.

The Fourth Amendment exists, in plain simple language, to limit SEARCH and SEIZURE by whim.....doesn't matter what ideology gives birth to the whim. Halting my peaceable journey, by force of arms without reasonable cause, is a SEIZURE....try it on a stranger in your neighborhood and see if you don't end up facing a serious criminal rap; asking for my Papers while you scan the objects in my car is a SEARCH.

As to the "home" part; the Fourth cannot be limited only to your "home", because "Home" is just one of the words used in the text, "person, houses, papers and effect". Your reading would indicate that it only applies to the papers you have on your person while in your home.

As evidence of this true meaning of the Fourth, we only have to look at history. 30 years ago the cops could not stop you on a roadway without reasonable cause, could not require that you produce "papers" absent reasonable cause, could not break down your door without a warrant and could not whimsically detain you in the street without facing the wrath of the Federal Courts.

Today, that is all changed....and the younger generation does not even have the benefit of memory of a different era. Reinterpreting the Fourth, intentionally or not, is nothing short of NewSpeak. The language and its historical interpretaion are readily decipherable.
Rich
 
You need a devil's advocate, Rich?

Ah'll be yo' huckleberry. ;)

Necessary and Proper clause. Chief Justice John Marshall used it in McCulloch v. Marylandhttp://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_18s14.html thusly: (Hey, it's a long exerpt, but there's some important Constitutional theory from this 1819 case, which expanded the Commerce Clause, enforcement, and trounced state sovereignty.)
...But the argument on which most reliance is placed, is drawn from that peculiar language of this clause. Congress is not empowered by it to make all laws, which may have relation to the powers confered on the government, but such only as may be "necessary and proper" for carrying them into execution. The word "necessary" is considered as controlling the whole sentence, and as limiting the right to pass laws for the execution of the granted powers, to such as are indispensable, and without which the power would be nugatory. That it excludes the choice of means, and leaves to congress, in each case, that only which is most direct and simple.

Is it true, that this is the sense in which the word "necessary" is always used? Does it always import an absolute physical necessity, so strong, that one thing to which another may be termed necessary, cannot exist without that other? We think it does not. If reference be had to its use, in the common affairs of the world, or in approved authors, we find that it frequently imports no more than that one thing is convenient, or useful, or essential to another. To employ the means necessary to an end, is generally understood as employing any means calculated to produce the end, and not as being confined to those single means, without which the end would be entirely unattainable. Such is the character of human language, that no word conveys to the mind, in all situations, one single definite idea; and nothing is more common than to use words in a figurative sense. Almost all compositions contain words, which, taken in their rigorous sense, would convey a meaning different from that which is obviously intended. It is essential to just construction, that many words which import something excessive, should be understood in a more mitigated sense--in that sense which common usage justifies. The word "necessary" is of this description. It has not a fixed character, peculiar to itself. It admits of all degrees of comparison; and is often connected with other words, which increase or diminish the impression the mind receives of the urgency it imports. A thing may be necessary, very necessary, absolutely or indispensably necessary. To no mind would the same idea be conveyed by these several phrases. The comment on the word is well illustrated by the passage cited at the bar, from the 10th section of the 1st article of the constitution. It is, we think, impossible to compare the sentence which prohibits a state from laying "imposts, or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection laws," with that which authorizes congress "to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution" the powers of the general government, without feeling a conviction, that the convention understood itself to change materially the meaning of the word "necessary," by prefixing the word "absolutely." This word, then, like others, is used in various senses; and, in its construction, the subject, the context, the intention of the person using them, are all to be taken into view.

Let this be done in the case under consideration. The subject is the execution of those great powers on which the welfare of a nation essentially depends. It must have been the intention of those who gave these powers, to insure, so far as human prudence could insure, their beneficial execution. This could not be done, by confiding the choice of means to such narrow limits as not to leave it in the power of congress to adopt any which might be appropriate, and which were conducive to the end. This provision is made in a constitution, intended to endure for ages to come, and consequently, to be adapted to the various crises of human affairs. To have prescribed the means by which government should, in all future time, execute its powers, would have been to change, entirely, the character of the instrument, and give it the properties of a legal code. It would have been an unwise attempt to provide, by immutable rules, for exigencies which, if foreseen at all, must have been seen dimly, and which can be best provided for as they occur. To have declared, that the best means shall not be used, but those alone, without which the power given would be nugatory, would have been to deprive the legislature of the capacity to avail itself of experience, to exercise its reason, and to accommodate its legislation to circumstances. If we apply this principle of construction to any of the powers of the government, we shall find it so pernicious in its operation that we shall be compelled to discard it. The powers vested in congress may certainly be carried into execution, without prescribing an oath of office. The power to exact this security for the faithful performance of duty, is not given, nor is it indispensably necessary. The different departments may be established; taxes may be imposed and collected; armies and navies may be raised and maintained; and money may be borrowed, without requiring an oath of office. It might be argued, with as much plausibility as other incidental powers have been assailed, that the convention was not unmindful of this subject. The oath which might be exacted--that of fidelity to the constitution--is prescribed, and no other can be required. Yet, he would be charged with insanity, who should contend, that the legislature might not superadd, to the oath directed by the constitution, such other oath of office as its wisdom might suggest.

So, with respect to the whole penal code of the United States: whence arises the power to punish, in cases not prescribed by the constitution? All admit, that the government may, legitimately, punish any violation of its laws; and yet, this is not among the enumerated powers of congress. The right to enforce the observance of law, by punishing its infraction, might be denied, with the more plausibility, because it is expressly given in some cases. Congress is empowered "to provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States," and "to define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offences against the law of nations." The several powers of congress may exist, in a very imperfect state, to be sure, but they may exist and be carried into execution, although no punishment should be inflicted, in cases where the right to punish is not expressly given.

Take, for example, the power "to establish post-offices and post-roads." This power is executed, by the single act of making the establishment. But, from this has been inferred the power and duty of carrying the mail along the post-road, from one post-office to another. And from this implied power, has again been inferred the right to punish those who steal letters from the post-office, or rob the mail. It may be said, with some plausibility, that the right to carry the mail, and to punish those who rob it, is not indispensably necessary to the establishment of a post-office and post-road. This right is indeed essential to the beneficial exercise of the power, but not indispensably necessary to its existence. So, of the punishment of the crimes of stealing or falsifying a record or process of a court of the United States, or of perjury in such court. To punish these offences, is certainly conducive to the due administration of justice. But courts may exist, and may decide the causes brought before them, though such crimes escape punishment.

The baneful influence of this narrow construction on all the operations of the government, and the absolute impracticability of maintaining it, without rendering the government incompetent to its great objects, might be illustrated by numerous examples drawn from the constitution, and from our laws. The good sense of the public has pronounced, without hesitation, that the power of punishment appertains to sovereignty, and may be exercised, whenever the sovereign has a right to act, as incidental to his constitutional powers. It is a means for carrying into execution all sovereign powers, and may be used, although not indispensably necessary. It is a right incidental to the power, and conducive to its beneficial exercise.

If this limited construction of the word "necessary" must be abandoned, in order to punish, whence is derived the rule which would reinstate it, when the government would carry its powers into execution, by means not vindictive in their nature? If the word "necessary" means "needful," "requisite," "essential," "conducive to," in order to let in the power of punishment for the infraction of law; why is it not equally comprehensive, when required to authorize the use of means which facilitate the execution of the powers of government, without the infliction of punishment? . . . [continued]
 
...continued...
...In ascertaining the sense in which the word "necessary" is used in this clause of the constitution, we may derive some aid from that with which it is associated. Congress shall have power "to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper to carry into execution" the powers of the government. If the word "necessary" was used in that strict and rigorous sense for which the counsel for the state of Maryland contend, it would be an extraordinary departure from the usual course of the human mind, as exhibited in composition, to add a word, the only possible effect of which is, to qualify that strict and rigorous meaning; to present to the mind the idea of some choice of means of legislation, not strained and compressed within the narrow limits for which gentlemen contend.

But the argument which most conclusively demonstrates the error of the construction contended for by the counsel for the state of Maryland, is founded on the intention of the convention, as manifested in the whole clause. To waste time and argument in proving that, without it, congress might carry its powers into execution, would be not much less idle, than to hold a lighted taper to the sun. As little can it be required to prove, that in the absence of this clause, congress would have some choice of means. That it might employ those which, in its judgment, would most advantageously effect the object to be accomplished. That any means adapted to the end, any means which tended directly to the execution of the constitutional powers of the government, were in themselves constitutional. This clause, as construed by the state of Maryland, would abridge, and almost annihilate, this useful and necessary right of the legislature to select its means. That this could not be intended, is, we should think, had it not been already controverted, too apparent for controversy.

We think so for the following reasons: 1st. The clause is placed among the powers of congress, not among the limitations on those powers. 2d. Its terms purport to enlarge, not to diminish the powers vested in the government. It purports to be an additional power, not a restriction on those already granted. No reason has been, or can be assigned, for thus concealing an intention to narrow the discretion of the national legislature, under words which purport to enlarge it. The framers of the constitution wished its adoption, and well knew that it would be endangered by its strength, not by its weakness. Had they been capable of using language which would convey to the eye one idea, and, after deep reflection, impress on the mind, another, they would rather have disguised the grant of power, than its limitation. If, then, their intention had been, by this clause, to restrain the free use of means which might otherwise have been implied, that intention would have been inserted in another place, and would have been expressed in terms resembling these. "In carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all others," &c., "no laws shall be passed but such as are necessary and proper." Had the intention been to make this clause restrictive, it would unquestionably have been so in form as well as in effect.

The result of the most careful and attentive consideration bestowed upon this clause is, that if it does not enlarge, it cannot be construed to restrain the powers of congress, or to impair the right of the legislature to exercise its best judgment in the selection of measures to carry into execution the constitutional powers of the government. If no other motive for its insertion can be suggested, a sufficient one is found in the desire to remove all doubts respecting the right to legislate on that vast mass of incidental powers which must be involved in the constitution, if that instrument be not a splendid bauble.

We admit, as all must admit, that the powers of the government are limited, and that its limits are not to be transcended. But we think the sound construction of the constitution must allow to the national legislature that discretion, with respect to the means by which the powers it confers are to be carried into execution, which will enable that body to perform the high duties assigned to it, in the manner most beneficial to the people. Let the end be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consist with the letter and spirit of the constitution, are constitutional.

That a corporation must be considered as a means not less usual, not of higher dignity, not more requiring a particular specification than other means, has been sufficiently proved. If we look to the origin of corporations, to the manner in which they have been framed in that government from which we have derived most of our legal principles and ideas, or to the uses to which they have been applied, we find no reason to suppose, that a constitution, omitting, and wisely omitting, to enumerate all the means for carrying into execution the great powers vested in government, ought to have specified this. Had it been intended to grant this power, as one which should be distinct and independent, to be exercised in any case whatever, it would have found a place among the enumerated powers of the government. But being considered merely as a means, to be employed only for the purpose of carrying into execution the given powers, there could be no motive for particularly mentioning it....

The funny thing is, much of the power given to the Federal government is this decision wasn't really wielded for another 60 years.
 
Oh you specious little Devil, you! ;)
This opinion, referred to by some as "..a final step in the creation of the federal government", revolved around the Federal government's decision for form a Central Bank.

In it, Marshall begs the question of "what the meaning of 'is' is" and conveniently finds that Congress has the right under the Commerce Clause to do so.

However, the Commerce Clause is not in the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was, in fact, intended to be immutable and I have to believe each one of the signers would have an expectation that future Courts would interpret it only in the most conservative sense.

To wit, I hardly expect that Marshall would have upheld a law that would have established a National Bank and given powers to the Executive to seize cash from those on the highways where there was only a "supposition" that such cash might be ill gotten gains.

Bill-O-Rights, Matt.
Rich
 
I'm a big fan of the BOR. Right fond of 'em, I am. I'm also fond of the 11th, 13th, 14th, 17th, 19th, 26th, and 27th Amendments. I've also had some affinity for the 20th in my time, too, as you know. ;) All of those ammendments came after the BOR, which came after the original Constitution. Hell, the 13th and 14th amendments Constitutionally couldn't even be passed until 1809! :(

But those are in the Constitution. Those are specifically mentioned. So interpretation is unnecessary, right? Except for the question of who enforces those rights? Who do they apply to? Who has to follow them? Plessy v. Ferguson (1896) created that question about the Equal Protection Clause (14A), and the Court decided [7-1] that Separate But Equal was a Good Thing. It wasn't until Brown that this was righted to mean that the Equal Protection Clause included everyone, not just us white males. Friends, we've a lot of people on this very board that remember the time before Brown. Apparently the Court felt pretty strongly back then that the Constitution "means what it means." How was it that only 58 years later the Court completely reversed (unanimously, by the way) that decision? Rich, I'll say to you what I said to LAK (!): It ain't that simple to figure out what it means.

Let's run again at "Necessary and Proper," and I'll try to avoid being meretricious, this time. :) Okay, the Framers put that clause in to avoid having to spell out each and every flippin' detail of the Federal Government's powers. Like Marshall says, reasonably: the Constitution gives the Federal government the power to establish Post Offices and Post Roads; why wouldn't it have the power to enforce laws concerning them?

So why shouldn't the Necessary and Proper Clause, when applied to the power to provide for "the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States," allow the Government to trample a few rights?

:)
 
The Fourth Amendment exists, in plain simple language, to limit SEARCH and SEIZURE by whim.....doesn't matter what ideology gives birth to the whim.

I think it does matter. The States did not request the BOR with the intent of creating a more powerful federal government with jurisdiction over "rights" i.e. everything. The US BOR was intended to limit only the US governnment and not other governments. So the plain and simple language is misleading if it makes us think that the US has jurisdiction over the enumerated "rights".

Jefferson said that the US BOR enumerates areas where the US is powerless, and that it is up to each State to judge how far rights might be abridged.

But regardless of the BOR, the Constitution guarantees each State a republican form of government, so if a State is violating its people's political rights, then that is a US matter. That is why I think it matters whether a State's intent is to infringe on a right that the US actually has proper jurisdiction over i.e. a political right which is, as the Second Amendment puts it, "necessary to the security of a free [self-governing] State".


So I stand by my statement. An amendment to the Constitution, by its very existence, cannot be unconstitutional. As long as the original (because that part has never been amended) Constitution gives all Judicial Power to the Supreme Court, then whatever the Court rules, is final and is constitutional.

I won't mince words here. We either accept things as they are, or we work to change things within the system. The only other alternative is to muster a call for arms and revolt. Is this what you are doing?

The Constitution does not give all judicial power to the SCOTUS: it does not give them power over intrastate affairs i.e. matters between a citizen and his State. Further, if the SCOTUS was supreme and whatever they said was the Constitution, then we could not possibly stray from the Constitution. Personally, I think we have strayed from the Constitution.

I have no idea why you ask if I am calling for armed revolution. We have strayed from the Constitution and I choose the Constitution. I do not think you can have it both ways and say that if you respect whatever the SCOTUS rules then you respect the Constitution. I think a man has to choose.
 
Long Path-
Devil's Advocate my butt....you ARE the Devil! :)

Hugh-
No baiting here. I'm trying to figure out if I missed a huge part of Constitutional theory. Are you putting forth the idea that the Bill of Rights establishes limits only on the Federal Powers and that individual States may properly reject any or all of those God Given Rights?

If so, please educate me on this. The ramifications are extraordinary.
Rich
 
Back
Top