Saddam..............

[LAK]

gburner

'Trollop'??????

Yes; trollop. I could also have used tripe, balderdash, or scheisse.

Your view of Saddam seems to be as misinformed as your use of the above word.

No, the word trollop is quite commonly used over the pond to refer to many things.

I am in no way misinformed about Saddam Hussein's treatment of the Catholics in Iraq. The current Vatican could not have cared a rat's behind about Tariq Aziz and it will be interesting to see what becomes of him when the show trials are over.

It will also be interesting to see what has become of the Catholics in Iraq under the "protection" of the new "democracy".

It also boggles the mind that, dispite overwhelming, daily evidence, you still deny the existence of Al Qaeda in particular and the worlwide threat of islamofascism in general. Tell it to the families of the dead.

Deny the existance of Al Kidya? Certainly not. As for the families of the dead, ask the Serbs whose families died and their country destroyed by a drug army with the assistance of Al Kidya, and our air force.

 

[LAK]

shootingstudent

Your opinion belies the fact that you do not know any middle eastern christians

The Catholics in Iraq belong to the same Church, and practice the same Faith as I do.

Christians can and do live peacefully, in large numbers, in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and especially kuwait.

Yes, there are Christians in places like Lebanon and Palestine; tell me how many Catholic monasteries and church buildings where the Mass is held are located in Saudi Arabia? How about Kuwait?

As I know from personal friends and acquaintances who are palestinian, lebanese, and kuwaiti, the theology is not the same, but that's not relevant.

What theology are you talking about? The theology of the Eastern Rite Chaldeans is Catholic.

They uniformly denounce Israel, and live as citizens just like everyone else in their home countries. You can easily verify one fact at least: Christians in Iraq have called for Ali Al Sistani to receive a nobel peace prize

There are alot of people who could not care less about the State of Israel - in addition to those who dispute it's legitimacy as a State.

The Chaldean Catholics in Iraq are not interested in currying any favor with Ali al-Sistani. His "secular" stance on a "democracy" in Iraq is about as thin as an onion skin, and about as transparent.

 

[gburner]

LAK...
Having consulted a dozen or more references for both proper usage and slang on both this side of the pond and the other, I find ZERO refereces for the word 'trollop' being used as a alternative to tripe, balderdash or sheisse. I still maintain that your usage is misapplied.

I didn't state that the Vatican cared or didn't care for Tariq Aziz. I made the point that he was part of Saddam's inner circle and was one of the reasons that Catholics were left relatively unmolested. At no point did I reference the 'current Vatican' as the discussion centered around the status quo when Saddam was in power. Please don't twist my words or take what I say out of context. If you want to discuss the points that I raised, fine.

The point of discussion is about the way the Catholics in Iraq were treated under Saddam, not the way that they will be treated, not whether Tariq Aziz will get a fair trial or anything that allegedly happened in the former Yugoslavia. Along with betraying an elitist attitude, your posts are filled with strawmen and red herrings that add nothing to the discussion.

 

[Rojoe67]

LAK - please continue...

Did I catch you informing us that the Serb's country and people were killed by a drug army, Al Kidya (as you call it) and our Air Force?........ OK, you bit it off now chew it......and give all the proof of what your reporting. I must have missed all these CNN Special Reports. Knowing the media, if what all your saying is true (?) We should have had a lot more reports how, when and what we did to commit this huge slaughter your telling us about.

 

[butch50]

Trollop: Having consulted a dozen or more references for both proper usage and slang on both this side of the pond and the other, I find ZERO refereces for the word 'trollop' being used as a alternative to tripe, balderdash or sheisse. I still maintain that your usage is misapplied.

I have seen it used in that context before. It is an older usage and I haven't seen it used in decades. It has been used in the context of casting aspersion upon an idea or a statement. I would think it was british term in that context but can't prove it up. But, suffice it to say that he did use it in the context in which it has been used before, and when I read it that is exactly how I took it as well.

 

[shootinstudent]

LAK,

Your last post to me accomplished two things:

1. Petty name calling, with whatever connotation.

2. An erroneous assertion about a group of Christians whose members you do not know, nor about whose theology have you studied. They have not been ruled by other christians since the conquest of the Turks.

But those two are missing the point, which is that there are thousands of christians in virtually every middle eastern country, who do just fine. Ali Al Sistani does not have a secular stance. You can read that for yourself on his own website. And any major news source will tell you about Iraq's catholics wishing that he receive a peace prize for his tolerance of christians.

There are significant populations of Christians in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. They are not targets of Al Qaeda anymore than the Christians in Finland or Switzerland are. And, they are culturally much more similar to Arabs than they are to say, Israelis or Americans. Hence, they tend to have strongly anti-Israeli views, and they fit right in living in the Arab states that they occupy. That, my internet-educated friend, is why they are not attacked routinely by Al Qaeda cells. It is also why your claim that only Saddam permitted religious freedom (which he did not) is wrong.

I'd like to see in your next post:

1. Some maturity

2. Something that at least vaguely addresses your claim that the only explanation for christians being left alone in the middle east is that Al Qaeda doesn't exist.

 

[gburner]

Butch 50 and/or LAK...

References, please. Any published dictionary of common usage or slang will do. You can call a pig a parakeet but it still ain't gonna sing.

LAK...

I'm with Rojoe...I'd like to see some bona fide documentation of our Air Force working with a 'drug army' and islamofascists in the Balkans.

 

[butch50]

Gburner: Codswollop to references for slang. Not everything is in a reference book. Some of it is simply contained in literature, and I honestly don't have the time to re-read every book I ever read to find it.

 

[gburner]

Don't git yer knickers in a twist, mate.

 

[butch50]

10-4

 

[LAK]

gburner,

Whether your references say so or not; spend one day in London, strike up a conversation about "9/11" or "7/7". I am sure you will hear it used alot.

I made the point that he was part of Saddam's inner circle and was one of the reasons that Catholics were left relatively unmolested.

Catholics were unmolested for many reasons; one being Saddam's government was purely secular, and Catholics were not engaged in trying to overthrow it.

At no point did I reference the 'current Vatican' as the discussion centered around the status quo when Saddam was in power. Please don't twist my words or take what I say out of context. If you want to discuss the points that I raised, fine

Really? Let's see ...

Tariq Aziz, was Catholic and Saddam didn't want the moral weight of the Vatican to shift from opposing the UN/US efforts to get him out of Kuwait

So what Vatican were you really referencing, and really mean?

The point of discussion is about the way the Catholics in Iraq were treated under Saddam, not the way that they will be treated, not whether Tariq Aziz will get a fair trial or anything that allegedly happened in the former Yugoslavia.

I see, so any comparison between what Saddam's government was like and a new one is "out of the question". Or for that matter any comparison with a trial under the Hussein government with one under the current status quo. And you definately don't want any of NATO/Al Kidya's skeletons falling out of the closet. Keep it all nice and tidy - in the right well isolated compartments. I see, gotcha

 

[LAK]

Rojoe67

Did I catch you informing us that the Serb's country and people were killed by a drug army, Al Kidya (as you call it) and our Air Force?........

You certainly did. Led by a well-known pig and his friends in our WH. Al Kidya was linked to the KLA, and they are linked to other "revolutionary" groups in the region.

No, you won't see any one hour specials on CNN, or Rupert's FOX. But it hardly any secret, and of course anyone who is interested in finding out can research it further. But here are a couple of intros to the subject:

http://www.kosovo.com/alqinkos.html

http://www.balkanalysis.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=515

gburner,

Write and ask your fraud currently sitting in the WH - ask him to "confirm or deny" that this is fact or fiction known to our intelligence agencies at the time. When he replies and "sets the record straight", you'll be secure in the knowledge that you have finally found a source you can trust.

 

[LAK]

shootingstudent

2. An erroneous assertion about a group of Christians whose members you do not know, nor about whose theology have you studied. They have not been ruled by other christians since the conquest of the Turks.

You are in error; I have no idea what people you refer to. The Chaldean Catholic Church of the Eastern Rite in Iraq was founded by St Thomas himself, and the theology of that rite is one and the same as the Catholic Church - which has only one theology.

I think you are mixing up political groups elsewhere in the Middle East which have attached the prefix "christian" to their party names - with the Catholic Chaldean Church.

But those two are missing the point, which is that there are thousands of christians in virtually every middle eastern country, who do just fine. Ali Al Sistani does not have a secular stance. You can read that for yourself on his own website. And any major news source will tell you about Iraq's catholics wishing that he receive a peace prize for his tolerance of christians.

Ali al-Sistani has made vain expressions of supporting a secular government only; nothing I could care less about. He is what he is, and no friend of the Catholic Church in Iraq. If any major news source were interested in telling the truth, perhaps they could report live from inside Iraq at the Chaldean Churches and monasteries there and interview some of them about what has happened to them since they were all "liberated".

Perhaps Christian Amanpour could don flak vest and the AK-47 she carried during her Afghan campaign, and ride a horse up to the monastery at Mergi; and give us an extended report from the clergy there about how wonderful it is under the new "democracy" in Iraq.

There are significant populations of Christians in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria. They are not targets of Al Qaeda anymore than the Christians in Finland or Switzerland are

Yes; and we know Al Kidya is not being used as a tool to target Christians

But you dodged. Name the locations of the Catholic Churches and monasteries in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait?

And, they are culturally much more similar to Arabs than they are to say, Israelis or Americans

" .. more similar to Arabs ... "? Arabs are Semites. Just like their brethren in the State of Israel. Trying to create some cultural difference between them is absurd. Iraq was one of the most culturally advanced and educated countries per capita in the Middle East.

In Iraq many Christians have been urban types, own and run businesses, and live the same civilized culture as we do or those in Europa, while others are rural due to their geographical location and isolation.

Hence, they tend to have strongly anti-Israeli views, and they fit right in living in the Arab states that they occupy

Again, many people could not care less about the State of Israel, and they live in countries all over the civilized world.

It is also why your claim that only Saddam permitted religious freedom (which he did not) is wrong

I see; and whose religious freedom was supressed in Iraq under the Hussein government? And let's not mix religion and politics - whose religious freedom did Saddam Hussein suppress?

 

[Wildalaska]

Arabs are Semites. Just like their brethren in the State of Israel.

Ah yes, race und blut.

PS speaking the same LANGUAGE group doesnt make you "brethren". But then again, we are all either African or Asian anyway


WildwhyamIbotheringanywayAlaska

 

[LAK]

Wildalaska

Ah yes, race und blut.

PS speaking the same LANGUAGE group doesnt make you "brethren". But then again, we are all either African or Asian anyway

Not necessarily religiously speaking; but culturally it is generally so.

And I do not happen to perceive some Semites as cultural untermensch.

 

[Ohio Annie]

Bottom line:

dictatorships tend to be comfortable more or less for the common folk. just don't try to become educated or invent anything useful. especially if you are female.

having a working democracy of Moslems would be a good start for something better for the Middle East. we need an "England" (friendly home base) over there as someone else has said.

 

[gburner]

LAK...

You really can't stand having your feet held to the fire, can you?

Once again, you quote me out of context and then twist my statements. I listed three reasons why the Catholics were left alone in Iraq under Saddam. You chose to take two of the reasons out of context, misapply the two and create a whole new, false context. For someone who seems to pride himself on his 'intellegence', you choose a childish way to debate that doesn't begin to address issues already on the table. Read the whole post next time.

Re. the Vatican and Saddam. The 'current Vatican' is run by a new Pope. In case the news hasn't made it to your planet, John Paul II is dead and Saddam is in jail, awaiting trial The discussion was about how the Catholics in Iraq were treated under Saddam. The scenario has changed significantly in the past three years but that fact is not germain to the previous discussion. Speak to the issue at hand, without quibbling, dissembling or changing the subject. No one is impressed with how well you can juggle apples and oranges, strawmen and red herrings.

Re. asking the Prez about 'setting the record straight' ...it just might prove to be more productive than attempting to get a straight, reality based answer from you. Again, you respond with more strawmen, more evasion, more quibbling. I ask you what time it is and you want to tell me how you heard they assemble clocks in Khatmandu. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Re. what I might hear on a London street corner...I might hear the House of Lords fart 'God Save the Queen' in perfect four part harmony but that has nothing to do with you providing a bona fide reference for your misapplied wording.

 

[shootinstudent]

LAK,

Here you go:

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/places/by_country.htm

and for Saudi arabia, since the percentage figure is small:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Saudi_Arabia

15 percent of Kuwait is Christian, and there are between 500,000 and 1 million Catholics living in Saudi Arabia. More to follow on the theological differences. St. Thomas is not a founder of the western catholic tradition, for starters.

And, this is all in lieu of the fact that you did not explain how the lack of attacks on Christians means that Al Qaeda does not exist. That is the point you are dodging, and I suspect that you are doing it because you do not have an answer.

 

[LAK]

gburner

LAK... You really can't stand having your feet held to the fire, can you?

Someone who is simply ignorant, or has (or chooses) amnesia isn't going to hold anyone's feet to any fire. There is a relationship between history and the present which is inseparable; that includes the subject of Al Kidya.

The bottom line was that Christians never were a threat to the Hussein government or stability in Iraq. They were among the most educated, productive and civilized. That is the main reason they were unmolested. Not because of who was sitting in Rome.

The discussion was about how the Catholics in Iraq were treated under Saddam

Right. And the answer is? Very well. Like no other predominantly Muslim country in the Middle East. And protected.

 

[LAK]

shootingstudent,

First link is interesting. Notice it shows that Saudi Arabia is one-hundred perecent Muslim.

While there are indeed small percentages in many Middle eastern countries - Kuwait is perhaps the most insignificant because it has such a small overall population. Prior to the invasion there were about one million Christians there; almost half the total population of Kuwait.

As regards to the second link, "the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops estimates there are considerably more than 500,000 Catholics in the country and perhaps as many as 1 million" - I see; how many actual church buildings where they attend Mass?

The answer is zero. I challenge anyone to produce a tangible visible Christian Church in Saudi. It does not exist - except as a sort of underground presence in the form of foreigners who work there on visas and have their own private social groups.

How many Saudi nationals are Catholic? Eastern Orthordox? Protestant?

St. Thomas is not a founder of the western catholic tradition, for starters.

The Church in Iraq - the area of Nineveh - was founded by St Thomas. The Chaldean Church is a Rite of the Catholic Church and currently in union with the Roman Church. Many of the Chaldean churches are - or were (at least under the protection of the Hussein government) - located in places like Mosul, Basara etc. Like al-Tahera in Mosul

all in lieu of the fact that you did not explain how the lack of attacks on Christians means that Al Qaeda does not exist

Please quote me verbatem - cut and paste - where I stated this.