Fred Hansen
New member
As with any troll it was a whole bunch easier just to click the ignore button.
Saddam Had No WMD's or programs
- Thread starter bountyh
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Let me guess, Lak...
The Holocaust never happened either, did it?
Hitler, a truly misunderstood, peacable, soul just sent 6 million people out for ice cream and they all got lost in the woods.
Of course, if these allegations were simple fabrications, the UN wouldn't be interested, right?
From Reuters, in March...
"The United Nations human rights investigator for Iraq urged rich nations on Thursday to provide more money and forensic experts to examine dozens of mass graves discovered in the year since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
In a report presented to the UN human rights body in Geneva,
Andreas Mavrommatis said families of thousands of missing Iraqis, notably Kurds and Shi’ite Muslims, deserved to know their fate and to retrieve their relatives’ remains.
Saying such inquiries would enable national reconciliation, he also said probes into crimes against humanity committed during Saddam’s minority, Sunni-dominated administration should be speeded up. Saddam is in US custody, pending a trial.
Baghdad’s treatment of the Kurds “amounted to genocide”, Mavrommatis said. He added that he had evidence that Saddam’s cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as “Chemical Ali” and also in US custody, masterminded a campaign that included gas attacks.
The Cypriot jurist told the UN Commission on Human Rights annual meeting that 273 possible mass graves had been reported, of which 55 were confirmed, containing several thousand corpses. One witness, he said, told him 40 to 50 people had been forced onto trucks in Baghdad and driven among burning tyres while handcuffed and blindfolded. They were burned alive."
55 confirmed mass graves, and several thousand corpses. That's not much, right?
The Holocaust never happened either, did it?
Hitler, a truly misunderstood, peacable, soul just sent 6 million people out for ice cream and they all got lost in the woods.
Of course, if these allegations were simple fabrications, the UN wouldn't be interested, right?
From Reuters, in March...
"The United Nations human rights investigator for Iraq urged rich nations on Thursday to provide more money and forensic experts to examine dozens of mass graves discovered in the year since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
In a report presented to the UN human rights body in Geneva,
Andreas Mavrommatis said families of thousands of missing Iraqis, notably Kurds and Shi’ite Muslims, deserved to know their fate and to retrieve their relatives’ remains.
Saying such inquiries would enable national reconciliation, he also said probes into crimes against humanity committed during Saddam’s minority, Sunni-dominated administration should be speeded up. Saddam is in US custody, pending a trial.
Baghdad’s treatment of the Kurds “amounted to genocide”, Mavrommatis said. He added that he had evidence that Saddam’s cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as “Chemical Ali” and also in US custody, masterminded a campaign that included gas attacks.
The Cypriot jurist told the UN Commission on Human Rights annual meeting that 273 possible mass graves had been reported, of which 55 were confirmed, containing several thousand corpses. One witness, he said, told him 40 to 50 people had been forced onto trucks in Baghdad and driven among burning tyres while handcuffed and blindfolded. They were burned alive."
55 confirmed mass graves, and several thousand corpses. That's not much, right?
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
Enough with the (semi-)veiled insults, folks. Take it to email if you must, but keep it off the boards, please.
-Dave
-Dave
Destructo6
New member
While I didn't approve of airstrikes in the former Yugoslavia, the atrocities committed there are in no way, shape, or form false. They are well documented, as are those Saddam ordered against Iranian troops (no friends of mine, but...) and later against the Kurdish population.
To deny them is absurd and only serves to further marginalize your claims.
Destructo6,
Perhaps you should read the "Racak Report" which was a result by an independent forensic team from Finland. The "Racak massacre" was faked with bodies taken from firefights between KLA and Serb regulars, re-clothed and laid "excecution style" to give the appearence of a massacre.
There were no more atrocities committed by the Serb army in Kosova than the few that generally occur in any such conflict; such as our own in Vietnam. Cause for concern, but by no means an excuse to invade a sovereign country.
Serbia was experiencing what we are now experiencing in Iraq, from basically the same people. These same people continue to commit crimes there to this day.
Mike,
You either did not read my last post, or you did not comprehend it.
As for the alleged atrocities by the Hussein government; we have had ten years to look into these. If there are witnesses to such things, let them tesitfy under oath. The physical evidence should have been examined by independent forensic teams and their findings and testimony examined under similar conditions a long time ago.
If you give credence to various international organizations, there is hardly a regime (many currently actively supported by our government) in central asia, many former Soviet provinces, that have not engaged in human rights violations and atrocities against various groups of people in their countries.
The U.N. is a criminal organization, with no standing to say anything about anyone as far as I am concerned.
Perhaps you should read the "Racak Report" which was a result by an independent forensic team from Finland. The "Racak massacre" was faked with bodies taken from firefights between KLA and Serb regulars, re-clothed and laid "excecution style" to give the appearence of a massacre.
There were no more atrocities committed by the Serb army in Kosova than the few that generally occur in any such conflict; such as our own in Vietnam. Cause for concern, but by no means an excuse to invade a sovereign country.
Serbia was experiencing what we are now experiencing in Iraq, from basically the same people. These same people continue to commit crimes there to this day.
Mike,
You either did not read my last post, or you did not comprehend it.
As for the alleged atrocities by the Hussein government; we have had ten years to look into these. If there are witnesses to such things, let them tesitfy under oath. The physical evidence should have been examined by independent forensic teams and their findings and testimony examined under similar conditions a long time ago.
If you give credence to various international organizations, there is hardly a regime (many currently actively supported by our government) in central asia, many former Soviet provinces, that have not engaged in human rights violations and atrocities against various groups of people in their countries.
The U.N. is a criminal organization, with no standing to say anything about anyone as far as I am concerned.
Just to Clarify
We have had ironclad knowledge of Saddam's "atrocities" for far more than ten years. The chemical massacre of Kurds in northern Iraq happened in late 1988 on Reagan's watch. What followed was a stony silence on that subject from him and Bush (senior). Not only that, their admin embraced an absolutely ludicrous cover story floated by Iraq at the time that the massive dead bodies covered with a suspicious yellow powder was the result of "toxic pollen" from trees carried by the wind. The reason the admin kept quiet? At that time, Hussein was still viewed as a controllable asset. he was described by the CIA to Reagan: "He's a bully and a killer, but he's OUR killer." So, the righteous indignation which the US government now raises does seem to be a little late in the game.
One might also ask where is that concern for the grand scale genocide that has been going on in Africa and has claimed at least a million lives in the last two years? Oh, yeah..... they have no oil in their land and they have that "dark pigmentation" problem.
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemiraqgas2.html
For the first time ever, scientists have been able to prove the use of chemical weapons through the analysis of environmental residues taken years after such an attack occurred. In a development that could have far-reaching consequences for the enforcement of the chemical weapons treaty, soil samples taken from bomb craters near a Kurdish village in northern Iraq by a team of forensic scientists have been found to contain trace evidence of nerve gas.
/////////////
Eyewitnesses have said that Iraqi warplanes dropped three clusters each of four bombs on the village of Birjinni on August 25, 1988. Observers recall seeing a plume of black, then yellowish smoke, followed by a not-unpleasant odor similar to fertilizer, and also a smell like rotten garlic.
/////////////////////
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/kurds/attack.html
The Chemical Solution
Then Saddam made a fateful decision for the Kurdish people. His cousin, Ali Hassan Al Majid - now known as 'Chemical Ali' - was appointed the governor of Northern Iraq and carried out the plan.
“Tell him I will strike. I will strike with chemicals and kill them all. What is the international community going to say? The hell with them and the hell with any other country in the world that objects.” translated from an audio tape of Ali obtained by the U.S.
Thousands of innocent people died on the streets of Halabja.
Again and again helicopters flew over Kurdish settlements throughout northern Iraq releasing clouds of lethal gases and leaving bodies piled in the streets.
Then on March 16, 1988 the Iraqis flew over the Kurdish town of Halabja. Within a hour, over 5,000 innocent men, women and children died on the streets.
Many tried to hide in basements, unaware that they would provide no protection against a chemical attack. Tens of thousands of others fled into nearby mountain caves where the deadly fumes took their lives days later.
But this time, television cameras were there to document the tragedy. Images of bodies piled in the streets of Halabja were broadcast around the world. It's estimated that as many as 30,000 Kurds lost their lives to Saddam's chemical weapons.
Code:
As for the alleged atrocities by the Hussein government; we have had ten years to look into these. If there are witnesses to such things, let them tesitfy under oath.One might also ask where is that concern for the grand scale genocide that has been going on in Africa and has claimed at least a million lives in the last two years? Oh, yeah..... they have no oil in their land and they have that "dark pigmentation" problem.
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemiraqgas2.html
For the first time ever, scientists have been able to prove the use of chemical weapons through the analysis of environmental residues taken years after such an attack occurred. In a development that could have far-reaching consequences for the enforcement of the chemical weapons treaty, soil samples taken from bomb craters near a Kurdish village in northern Iraq by a team of forensic scientists have been found to contain trace evidence of nerve gas.
/////////////
Eyewitnesses have said that Iraqi warplanes dropped three clusters each of four bombs on the village of Birjinni on August 25, 1988. Observers recall seeing a plume of black, then yellowish smoke, followed by a not-unpleasant odor similar to fertilizer, and also a smell like rotten garlic.
/////////////////////
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/kurds/attack.html
The Chemical Solution
Then Saddam made a fateful decision for the Kurdish people. His cousin, Ali Hassan Al Majid - now known as 'Chemical Ali' - was appointed the governor of Northern Iraq and carried out the plan.
“Tell him I will strike. I will strike with chemicals and kill them all. What is the international community going to say? The hell with them and the hell with any other country in the world that objects.” translated from an audio tape of Ali obtained by the U.S.
Thousands of innocent people died on the streets of Halabja.
Again and again helicopters flew over Kurdish settlements throughout northern Iraq releasing clouds of lethal gases and leaving bodies piled in the streets.
Then on March 16, 1988 the Iraqis flew over the Kurdish town of Halabja. Within a hour, over 5,000 innocent men, women and children died on the streets.
Many tried to hide in basements, unaware that they would provide no protection against a chemical attack. Tens of thousands of others fled into nearby mountain caves where the deadly fumes took their lives days later.
But this time, television cameras were there to document the tragedy. Images of bodies piled in the streets of Halabja were broadcast around the world. It's estimated that as many as 30,000 Kurds lost their lives to Saddam's chemical weapons.
Additional
"As early as 1983 the Reagan Administration was already well aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran. According to U.S. intelligence on an ‘almost daily basis’. But that wasn’t all. There were also intelligence reports the Iraqis were using chemical weapons in the north of their own country, in the battle against the Kurds. But the White House did nothing."
A Convenient Alliance
As hundreds of thousands of American soldiers bear down upon the regime of Saddam Hussein, it is hard to imagine another era, not so long ago, when the Americans and Iraqis were allies.
In December 1983 Donald Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad to send a message of friendship to Saddam Hussein. In those days, they had a mutual enemy: Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. The Iraqis had long-standing disputes with Iran and the Americans were still smarting over the seizure of American hostages in 1979. Ronald Reagan sent a special envoy to forge an alliance. His name was Donald Rumsfeld.
Twenty years ago, each side had something the other needed. The Americans wanted an ally in the Middle East and Iraq needed food, money and military supplies.
Chemical Warfare
There was just one problem. According to Dr. Stephen Bryen, a Pentagon official in charge of monitoring technology exports, the Reagan administration was aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran. This was against the Geneva Convention which outlawed the use of chemical and biological weapons in 1925.
"As early as 1983 the Reagan Administration was already well aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran. According to U.S. intelligence on an ‘almost daily basis’. But that wasn’t all. There were also intelligence reports the Iraqis were using chemical weapons in the north of their own country, in the battle against the Kurds. But the White House did nothing."
Dr. Stephen Bryen worked to stop the sale of U.S. technology to Iraq.
Dr. Bryen was responsible for ensuring that American technology didn't end up in the wrong hands. He says that by the 1980s, it was obvious that Saddam was building weapons of mass destruction using equipment from the West.
"The Iraqis were looking to use the U.S. as they were using Western Europe to acquire equipment and technology for their military forces, and if we’re dumb enough to sell it to them, they were happy enough to take it."
The Sale of Technology to Iraq
Although official U.S. policy prohibited military sales to Iraq, the Commerce and State departments pushed to sell the Iraqis 'dual-use' items which could have both civilian and military purposes like trucks, computers or helicopters.
Richard Murphy, a top State Department official (Assistant Secretary of State for the Near East Bureau) remembers that the pressure to sell was enormous.
"Certainly there was pressure to sell and there was the argument, if the contract doesn’t go to an American you can be darn sure it’s gonna go to a German, British, French manufacturer and trucks were one example. Civilian helicopters were a dicier decision. Could they be turned into the equivalent of an attack helicopter?"
The U.S. approved the sale of helicopters to Iraq which may have been used by the military.
Despite opposition from the Pentagon, the U.S. approved the sale of 100 helicopters to the Iraqis who claimed they would be used as agricultural sprayers. Dr. Bryen says many were transferred to the military, perhaps to be used in chemical attacks.
"You know, we don’t like that, that’s a very dangerous thing, and of course Halabja is a perfect example of what you do with helicopters filled with chemicals."
Then Iraq requested 1.5 million vials of atropine - the antidote for nerve gas - to protect Iraqi soldiers from chemical weapons. The State Department supported the sale even through nobody had nerve gas except the Iraqi army.
Dr. Bryen raised the red flag and Iraq was not allowed to purchase the drugs. But according to documents recently released by the Iraqis themselves, several U.S. companies provided chemical and biological components to Iraq during the 1980s which were used to develop weapons.
Iraq also received billion in loans and credits to purchase American food and goods - more than almost any other country. It left Saddam free to spend his hard currency on more weapons.
The Kurdish city of Halabja was attacked with chemical weapons on March 16, 1988.
Washington's Reaction to the Attack on Halabja
But after the chemical attack on Halabja in 1988 (read more) the truth seemed too sinister to ignore.
Senate staffer Peter Galbraith drafted legislation - the Prevention of Genocide Act - that imposed harsh economic sanctions on the regime. (read more)
Billions in loans and agricultural credits would be cut off. America would no longer purchase Iraqi oil which accounted for one quarter of Iraq's production. And all U.S. exports to Iraq would be suspended.
Although the bill passed through the Senate in only one day the powerful farm and business lobbies warned that the legislation would only punish the Americans trading with Iraq.
When the Bill reached the House of Representatives, the provisions to remove agricultural credits and end bank loans were removed. Eventually the Act was caught up in Congressional bureacracy and died before it was passed. (read more)
Turning a Blind Eye Towards Saddam
Although the U.S. government officially denounced the gassing of the Kurds, it was business like never before with Iraq. After 1988 business with Iraq actually increased. By 1989, Iraq was given American agricultural guarantees worth $1 billion. Iraq was the largest importer of U.S. rice and the 2nd largest participant in the agricultural credit program.
For a decade, the American government turned a blind eye towards the Iraqi government.
Not long afterwards, believing that the U.S. would let him get away with murder again, Saddam Hussein sent his troops into Kuwait to claim the oil rich emirate as an Iraqi province.
Peter Galbraith says that the U.S. seriously under-estimated Saddam Hussein.
"We would not be here today in a 2nd Gulf War against Saddam Hussein if he had understood and if he had been made to understand that his behaviour would have consequences."
"As early as 1983 the Reagan Administration was already well aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran. According to U.S. intelligence on an ‘almost daily basis’. But that wasn’t all. There were also intelligence reports the Iraqis were using chemical weapons in the north of their own country, in the battle against the Kurds. But the White House did nothing."
A Convenient Alliance
As hundreds of thousands of American soldiers bear down upon the regime of Saddam Hussein, it is hard to imagine another era, not so long ago, when the Americans and Iraqis were allies.
In December 1983 Donald Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad to send a message of friendship to Saddam Hussein. In those days, they had a mutual enemy: Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. The Iraqis had long-standing disputes with Iran and the Americans were still smarting over the seizure of American hostages in 1979. Ronald Reagan sent a special envoy to forge an alliance. His name was Donald Rumsfeld.
Twenty years ago, each side had something the other needed. The Americans wanted an ally in the Middle East and Iraq needed food, money and military supplies.
Chemical Warfare
There was just one problem. According to Dr. Stephen Bryen, a Pentagon official in charge of monitoring technology exports, the Reagan administration was aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran. This was against the Geneva Convention which outlawed the use of chemical and biological weapons in 1925.
"As early as 1983 the Reagan Administration was already well aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran. According to U.S. intelligence on an ‘almost daily basis’. But that wasn’t all. There were also intelligence reports the Iraqis were using chemical weapons in the north of their own country, in the battle against the Kurds. But the White House did nothing."
Dr. Stephen Bryen worked to stop the sale of U.S. technology to Iraq.
Dr. Bryen was responsible for ensuring that American technology didn't end up in the wrong hands. He says that by the 1980s, it was obvious that Saddam was building weapons of mass destruction using equipment from the West.
"The Iraqis were looking to use the U.S. as they were using Western Europe to acquire equipment and technology for their military forces, and if we’re dumb enough to sell it to them, they were happy enough to take it."
The Sale of Technology to Iraq
Although official U.S. policy prohibited military sales to Iraq, the Commerce and State departments pushed to sell the Iraqis 'dual-use' items which could have both civilian and military purposes like trucks, computers or helicopters.
Richard Murphy, a top State Department official (Assistant Secretary of State for the Near East Bureau) remembers that the pressure to sell was enormous.
"Certainly there was pressure to sell and there was the argument, if the contract doesn’t go to an American you can be darn sure it’s gonna go to a German, British, French manufacturer and trucks were one example. Civilian helicopters were a dicier decision. Could they be turned into the equivalent of an attack helicopter?"
The U.S. approved the sale of helicopters to Iraq which may have been used by the military.
Despite opposition from the Pentagon, the U.S. approved the sale of 100 helicopters to the Iraqis who claimed they would be used as agricultural sprayers. Dr. Bryen says many were transferred to the military, perhaps to be used in chemical attacks.
"You know, we don’t like that, that’s a very dangerous thing, and of course Halabja is a perfect example of what you do with helicopters filled with chemicals."
Then Iraq requested 1.5 million vials of atropine - the antidote for nerve gas - to protect Iraqi soldiers from chemical weapons. The State Department supported the sale even through nobody had nerve gas except the Iraqi army.
Dr. Bryen raised the red flag and Iraq was not allowed to purchase the drugs. But according to documents recently released by the Iraqis themselves, several U.S. companies provided chemical and biological components to Iraq during the 1980s which were used to develop weapons.
Iraq also received billion in loans and credits to purchase American food and goods - more than almost any other country. It left Saddam free to spend his hard currency on more weapons.
The Kurdish city of Halabja was attacked with chemical weapons on March 16, 1988.
Washington's Reaction to the Attack on Halabja
But after the chemical attack on Halabja in 1988 (read more) the truth seemed too sinister to ignore.
Senate staffer Peter Galbraith drafted legislation - the Prevention of Genocide Act - that imposed harsh economic sanctions on the regime. (read more)
Billions in loans and agricultural credits would be cut off. America would no longer purchase Iraqi oil which accounted for one quarter of Iraq's production. And all U.S. exports to Iraq would be suspended.
Although the bill passed through the Senate in only one day the powerful farm and business lobbies warned that the legislation would only punish the Americans trading with Iraq.
When the Bill reached the House of Representatives, the provisions to remove agricultural credits and end bank loans were removed. Eventually the Act was caught up in Congressional bureacracy and died before it was passed. (read more)
Turning a Blind Eye Towards Saddam
Although the U.S. government officially denounced the gassing of the Kurds, it was business like never before with Iraq. After 1988 business with Iraq actually increased. By 1989, Iraq was given American agricultural guarantees worth $1 billion. Iraq was the largest importer of U.S. rice and the 2nd largest participant in the agricultural credit program.
For a decade, the American government turned a blind eye towards the Iraqi government.
Not long afterwards, believing that the U.S. would let him get away with murder again, Saddam Hussein sent his troops into Kuwait to claim the oil rich emirate as an Iraqi province.
Peter Galbraith says that the U.S. seriously under-estimated Saddam Hussein.
"We would not be here today in a 2nd Gulf War against Saddam Hussein if he had understood and if he had been made to understand that his behaviour would have consequences."
Actually, to deny them is a fairly mainstream position now. He's got you on this one, Destructo. You need to do some more reading on this one.
And Mike, he's got you, too. You really do need to re-read his post.
OTOH, LAK, bounty just nailed your hide to the wall on THAT point.
The Cover Story Of The Time
Finally, with regard to the physical evidence, major doubts were raised regarding the claim of elevated levels of trichothecenes in environmental and biological samples and the significance of yellow rain despite the State Department's follow-up report describing additional chemical analyses. (8) ///// (5) Trichothecenes had been found in only six samples and were not found in subsequent testing of samples by independent laboratories including the US Army laboratories. Yellow rain was found to be composed almost entirely of pollen, including those samples that tested positive for trichothecenes. Subsequently, the likely source for yellow rain was found to be bee feces. (9)
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemjourn.html
Finally, with regard to the physical evidence, major doubts were raised regarding the claim of elevated levels of trichothecenes in environmental and biological samples and the significance of yellow rain despite the State Department's follow-up report describing additional chemical analyses. (8) ///// (5) Trichothecenes had been found in only six samples and were not found in subsequent testing of samples by independent laboratories including the US Army laboratories. Yellow rain was found to be composed almost entirely of pollen, including those samples that tested positive for trichothecenes. Subsequently, the likely source for yellow rain was found to be bee feces. (9)
http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemjourn.html
Gburner,
My response was just to ez45s post. I'm really neither for or against the Iraq invasion. But too often when the WMD thing comes up the immediate answer is that Saddam is a bad man, so that's enough.
Maybe it is enough, but if it is, why don't we use that same reasoning elsewhere? Cambodia, Somalia, Sudan, etc.
I note your response doesn't answer this question, so obvious in my post. Who's the troll?
My response was just to ez45s post. I'm really neither for or against the Iraq invasion. But too often when the WMD thing comes up the immediate answer is that Saddam is a bad man, so that's enough.
Maybe it is enough, but if it is, why don't we use that same reasoning elsewhere? Cambodia, Somalia, Sudan, etc.
I note your response doesn't answer this question, so obvious in my post. Who's the troll?
So, the righteous indignation which the US government now raises does seem to be a little late in the game.
So considering that we supposedly gave him those weapons, doesn't that make it even more morally incumbent upon this nation to disarm him, rather than less?
Priorities and alliances shift over the years, as do governments. The fact that Saddam was once a "friend" of the US in our effort to counterbalance the totalitarian Mullahs in Iran who kept our citizens hostage for over a year doesn't make our actions thirty years later any less righteous. If anything, it makes our silence those years ago all the more shameful in the light of the present.
So considering that we supposedly gave him those weapons, doesn't that make it even more morally incumbent upon this nation to disarm him, rather than less?
Priorities and alliances shift over the years, as do governments. The fact that Saddam was once a "friend" of the US in our effort to counterbalance the totalitarian Mullahs in Iran who kept our citizens hostage for over a year doesn't make our actions thirty years later any less righteous. If anything, it makes our silence those years ago all the more shameful in the light of the present.
To boil it down, helping petty dictators come to power or to retain power is wrong. It's always been wrong, no matter what the CIA thought it would accomplish.
Fixing the problem we created is the right thing to do.
Even better would be learning from the many times this nonsense has bitten us and never doing it again.
Fixing the problem we created is the right thing to do.
Even better would be learning from the many times this nonsense has bitten us and never doing it again.
Quartus,
OTOH, we have already covered what camera crews and film are. They are the vehicle of "truth" for the victor; that is, anything the victor wants to caption them with.
The military attack on Serbia was based on fake evidence. The "Racak massacre" was faked. Redressed dead KLA fighters, laid in a trench and photographed. The picture of "camp inmates behind the wire" that was published all over the world was also used as a misrepresentation. The photographer was standing inside a fenced area around a building and photographed these people who were on the outside. The Clinton administration used our military to bomb Serbia country and did indeed kill thousands of Serbian civilians in the process - based on lies. False testimony, photographs and film.
George H. W. Bush used a blatant lie to trip the emotional trigger of the public and Congress to invade Iraq the first time around. There were no "babies turned out of incubators", despite the phoney testimony of the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter - and the "doctor" who also gave false testimony - and despite all the work of G H W Bush's friend Craig Fuller and his PR firm Hill & Knowlton, and $10 million+ from the "Citizens for a Free Kuwait".
What BountyH does is merely rehash similar widely circulated and popular stories. If they are true, let them be proven. If there ever was credible evidence of atrocities on the scale claimed, the evidence and witnesses needs to be presented and proven or disproven.
OTOH, we have already covered what camera crews and film are. They are the vehicle of "truth" for the victor; that is, anything the victor wants to caption them with.
The military attack on Serbia was based on fake evidence. The "Racak massacre" was faked. Redressed dead KLA fighters, laid in a trench and photographed. The picture of "camp inmates behind the wire" that was published all over the world was also used as a misrepresentation. The photographer was standing inside a fenced area around a building and photographed these people who were on the outside. The Clinton administration used our military to bomb Serbia country and did indeed kill thousands of Serbian civilians in the process - based on lies. False testimony, photographs and film.
George H. W. Bush used a blatant lie to trip the emotional trigger of the public and Congress to invade Iraq the first time around. There were no "babies turned out of incubators", despite the phoney testimony of the Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter - and the "doctor" who also gave false testimony - and despite all the work of G H W Bush's friend Craig Fuller and his PR firm Hill & Knowlton, and $10 million+ from the "Citizens for a Free Kuwait".
What BountyH does is merely rehash similar widely circulated and popular stories. If they are true, let them be proven. If there ever was credible evidence of atrocities on the scale claimed, the evidence and witnesses needs to be presented and proven or disproven.
Quartus
I have yet to see a "fix" in any of these "rebuilt" nations. More like a perpetual drain on our resources, and the more insane we appear to other nations.
But as long as those who gave us (and them) the problem - and caused the subsequent suffering and deaths of so many people - carry on with impunity there is going to be no "fixing" anything.
I have yet to see a "fix" in any of these "rebuilt" nations. More like a perpetual drain on our resources, and the more insane we appear to other nations.
But as long as those who gave us (and them) the problem - and caused the subsequent suffering and deaths of so many people - carry on with impunity there is going to be no "fixing" anything.
Tell that to Japan & Germany.
But as for places where we've installed (or supported) dicatators, you're right. The reason we could do that in the first place is that <whatever country> was a hellhole to start with filled with people who do not have the necessary moral & educational foundation for governing themselves. So, put in a dictator, take out a dictator, it doesn't matter to them - they'll just move from one oppressive government to another anyway.
Still, when you put a dictator in power, it's wrong. It follows then that taking him out is the best you can make of the mess you've created.
And to expect it to be a clean fix is naive.
Unmasked Men
Walid Phares thumbed a sheaf of documents, all in Arabic and nearly all bearing the spherical slogan of Iraq's intelligence service, or Mukhabarat. The Middle East scholar, a Lebanese-American Christian who speaks four languages and is a recognized expert on Islamic militants and terrorism, has interrupted a sick day (prior engagement with a root canal) in order to evaluate 42 just-leaked intelligence documents confiscated by U.S. forces in Iraq.
Moistening his finger and translating out loud, Mr. Phares read from the pages in his third-floor office in downtown Washington, where he is taking a year off from teaching at Florida Atlantic University to serve as senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. He didn't notice as his narrating voice rose with incredulity. Finishing, he rapped the papers with his fingers and concluded: "This is a watershed. This is big."
Mr. Phares is one of at least four eminent Middle East experts to agree that the documents—published for the first time last week—demonstrate that Saddam Hussein collaborated with and supported Islamic terrorist groups, including the current terror nemesis in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
The papers, obtained by Cybercast News Service (CNS) and released Oct. 4, "establish irreversible evidence that there were strategic relations between the Baathist regime and Islamist groups that became al-Qaeda," Mr. Phares said after reviewing them at WORLD's request on Oct. 6. In addition, the documents link al-Zarqawi-associated groups throughout the Middle East, including al-Qaeda, on Saddam's payroll and acting under his direct authority.
-----
Like I've said previously, better to have the terrorists hiding in caves and wetting themselves at the sound of Pratt & Whitneys than lounging around gold-plated swimming pools trying to decide how to spend millions of dollars on killing Americans.
The terrorists are on the defensive, they are on the run. This fact is what matters, not that we don't have Osama (or his bloody gobbets) in our physical custody.
Walid Phares thumbed a sheaf of documents, all in Arabic and nearly all bearing the spherical slogan of Iraq's intelligence service, or Mukhabarat. The Middle East scholar, a Lebanese-American Christian who speaks four languages and is a recognized expert on Islamic militants and terrorism, has interrupted a sick day (prior engagement with a root canal) in order to evaluate 42 just-leaked intelligence documents confiscated by U.S. forces in Iraq.
Moistening his finger and translating out loud, Mr. Phares read from the pages in his third-floor office in downtown Washington, where he is taking a year off from teaching at Florida Atlantic University to serve as senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. He didn't notice as his narrating voice rose with incredulity. Finishing, he rapped the papers with his fingers and concluded: "This is a watershed. This is big."
Mr. Phares is one of at least four eminent Middle East experts to agree that the documents—published for the first time last week—demonstrate that Saddam Hussein collaborated with and supported Islamic terrorist groups, including the current terror nemesis in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
The papers, obtained by Cybercast News Service (CNS) and released Oct. 4, "establish irreversible evidence that there were strategic relations between the Baathist regime and Islamist groups that became al-Qaeda," Mr. Phares said after reviewing them at WORLD's request on Oct. 6. In addition, the documents link al-Zarqawi-associated groups throughout the Middle East, including al-Qaeda, on Saddam's payroll and acting under his direct authority.
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Like I've said previously, better to have the terrorists hiding in caves and wetting themselves at the sound of Pratt & Whitneys than lounging around gold-plated swimming pools trying to decide how to spend millions of dollars on killing Americans.
The terrorists are on the defensive, they are on the run. This fact is what matters, not that we don't have Osama (or his bloody gobbets) in our physical custody.
Quartus,
To expect a "clean fix is naive"? I'd like to know what going to happen when "democracy" is finally handed to those in Iraq; and as a "democracy" granted "self-determination", they decide they need all the weapons everyone else has to defend themselves.
They are going to have "self-determination" now that they have been "freed" from a "dictator" now right?
"I hear a lot of talk here about how we are going to impose this leader or that leader. Forget it. From day one we have said the Iraqi people are capable of running their own country. That is what we believe. The position of the United States of America is the Iraqis are plenty capable of running Iraq and that is precisely what is going to happen." - George W. Bush (Belfast, Northern Ireland, 08/04/03)
"Failing to respond to the just demands of the people can only intensify sentiments of anger and resistance against U.S.-British occupation." - Salam Ali, ICP Central Committee, quoted in Tareeq Al-Shaab (Iran's Communist Tudeh Party journal July 9, 2004)
Read their lips:
http://www.iraqcp.org
To expect a "clean fix is naive"? I'd like to know what going to happen when "democracy" is finally handed to those in Iraq; and as a "democracy" granted "self-determination", they decide they need all the weapons everyone else has to defend themselves.
They are going to have "self-determination" now that they have been "freed" from a "dictator" now right?
"I hear a lot of talk here about how we are going to impose this leader or that leader. Forget it. From day one we have said the Iraqi people are capable of running their own country. That is what we believe. The position of the United States of America is the Iraqis are plenty capable of running Iraq and that is precisely what is going to happen." - George W. Bush (Belfast, Northern Ireland, 08/04/03)
"Failing to respond to the just demands of the people can only intensify sentiments of anger and resistance against U.S.-British occupation." - Salam Ali, ICP Central Committee, quoted in Tareeq Al-Shaab (Iran's Communist Tudeh Party journal July 9, 2004)
Read their lips:
http://www.iraqcp.org
And yet two weeks later not a single news organization (not even Bush's official mouthpiece, FOX news) has run this story. Not a word from the Bush camp about this "smoking gun" even though Bush, Cheney and Powell suffered public humiliation when they were forced to admit they had no credible links between Iraq and terror networks.
Tis a puzzlement.
LAK, if you are trying to say that I've just accused GW of being naive, I have only this to say:
Yep. He is.
He suffers from a weakness that is common to genuinely nice people - he constantly underestimates the depths of evil of many people (Kerry comes to mind) and overestimates the good will of most.
It's not a good thing.