SA self defense article in American Rifleman

The cowboy shooters have been cocking the SA with the off hand for some time now, and their speed is impressive and shows the potential of the technique.
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Umm...yeah, it's fast. But only with mouse-phart loads.

Sigh.

OK, first problem is that to get that fast, you have to drop the off-hand thumb back behind the gun's upper grip area (across the "web" of the strong side hand) at the end of the cocking stroke, just before firing.

Try shooting BIG power like that sometime. With any gun...stout 45LC or 44Spl will hurt like hell, edgy full-house 357 will damn near rip your thumb off. (NOTE: for God's sake don't ever try that with an auto - the slide is liable to slice your off-side thumb.)

Second problem is, do that too much and you won't be able to shoot one-handed worth a damn. And that skill is absolutely vital - with any gun. Your off-hand might be tied up doing something else, like keeping your kid or wife behind you, or grappling with a goblin, or just shot up.

Off-hand-cocking with two hands is something that developed in SASS/CAS because of low-recoil loads (even in 45LC) and the fact that most SAs have hammers that are too long - cloned off of post-WW2 Colts. The hammer reach of a pre-war (1st gen) Colt SAA is identical to my *modified* Ruger.

My gun may not look period-correct, and in most ways it certainly isn't, but at least in terms of hammer cocking feel it's more correct than a brand new Colt SAA.
 
You know, the older I get, the more I think it's just plain closed minded to disparage other people's choice of CCW. I've said many times before that a SA revolver is not my cup of tea, but I'm open minded enough to realize that there are many people out there who are quite skilled with that platform and are comfortable enough to carry one.

As for someone doing something ill advised because of this article, well such a person would have to be a moron anyway. Nowhere in the article could I find something irresponsible suggested as a wise course of action. As a matter of fact, when holsters are discussed on page 91, the author notes that the traditional low-slung SA rig isn't a particularly wise choice for CCW. The author clearly indicates that he prefers a higher riding holster from Simply Rugged or Rick Gittlein. Also, it's pretty clear from the pictures that the author is practicing his draw from under a cover garment.

More to the point though, I don't really understand why "Wild Bill syndrome" is so much more a concern with a single-action revolver. I've certainly seen more people pick semi-autos and DA revolvers that were completely impractical for their purposes because they saw whatever gun in the latest action movie, video game, or rap video. I certainly don't see a SA revolver scaring people any more than a Desert Eagle, Glock, or S&W M29.

I also don't understand why a lack of practice would be so much more a concern with a SA. I'd venture to guess that there are a fair number of people who think they're invincible because they have some monster magnum DA revolver or a semi-auto that holds half a box of ammo. Regardless of the platform, it's the indian rather than the arrow that makes the difference.
 
Would I feel undergunnned having a single action revolver on me, no. Even "cowboy" loads are as hard hitting but even heavier than modern loads. For example, 45LC cowboy load- 230-255gr. going 800-900fps. 45acp- 850-900fps. These numbers are at standard pressure which is all that really needed in such calibers. If you got a Ruger type single action gun that can handle hotter loads you can pump up the 45LC that will easily exceed a 44magnum.

Would I carry a single action handgun, no. I have plenty of other pistols for such jobs. I prefer single action type handguns for carry like 1911s, SigP238 and XDs but I also train myself with revolvers both SAO and SA/DA. I would also prefer a big bore revolver if large 4 legged beasts where a concern and a single action revolver fills the role quite nicely.


5 or 6 shots with the slowest reload of a cartridge repeater really makes it important to make each shot count.
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Not if you got one of these and a speed loader, however I do understand about making each shot count with any type of gun ;)
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A Ruger ( original) Vaqeuro, .45Colt, with Birds Head Grip, above a Taurus .38 Special five shot.

It's not has hard to conceal as a person might think.

I have carried this Ruger on occasion. Hell I sometimes carry my Ruger Alaskan .44 Mag, it's about the same weight as the Vaqeuro, and a little bit shorter, but not by much.

vaquerotaurus.jpg
[/IMG]
 
A SAA would never be my first choice of going to the village with, . . . but I would certainly not feel under gunned if it came down to it or nothing.

Like another poster mentioned, . . . it is the most natural pointing handgun I have (Beretta Stampede, .45LC), . . . and it WILL get some attention when that beautifully blued barrel starts belching smoke and lead.

Like the .30 caliber rifles, . . . .45LC handguns have a habit of turning cover into concealment and "flushing" out the bg's.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Does anyone think it's a great idea to shoot any revolver with a finger hooked around the trigger guard . . . much less a single action magnum?

GE WIZ then what is that odd square thingy with serrations on the front of a Glock’s trigger guard.
I would agree that if you cannot shoot a gun with your weak hand index finger on the trigger guard without the problem of mirror finger pull. Then it’s not a good idea, but a lot of people can shoot that way and it helps control muzzle flip.
And the reason the thumb is in the air,,, is for fast recocking of the hammer
Personally anyone that thinks a single action would not make a good SD firearm is silly. It might not make a good SD firearm for everyone,,,,,, and I know that this is evil for me to say this here,,,, but a Glock inst the best SD gun for every one ether.
 
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Does anyone think it's a great idea to shoot any revolver with a finger hooked around the trigger guard . . . much less a single action magnum?
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Considering it will be pretty close inline where the gases escape where the cylinder meets the barrel, no not a good idea.
 
It's not the gun, it's the man using it, always has been and always will be.

The first one to get a good shot placement into the other guy, tends to win, no matter what platform it was launched from. :)
 
Considering it will be pretty close inline where the gases escape where the cylinder meets the barrel, no not a good idea.

And just what gun are you talking about?
 
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And just what gun are you talking about?
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I'm talking about revolvers. Look above at someones post with an older vaquero and a snub. The vaquero is ok, the snub is not. Not a good idea to get into the habit with a small trigger guard on a single action then goto a double action modern gun and get burnt or worse. I stand by my statement that, no its not a good idea.
Wanna get in the habit using these...
New_Ruger_Vaquero.jpg

vaquero2sml.jpg

and then do the same with these?

S%26W-44-magnum.jpg

357_38special_swmodel66.jpg

17ibss.jpg

489918_tm-coltphyton357revolver4inchi.jpg


Unless I was shooting with a thick glove its to close for comfort. I've found holding the trigger guard on an auto uncomfortable and provides not extra hold than a standard weaver grip so I use the same for revolvers.
 
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And we are not talking about revolvers, we are talking about single action revolvers where there is adequate distance between the cylinder and the guard for placement of the weak hand index finger.
I have been shooting single action guns for over 40 years and that includes black powder and I do not own a gun that is unsafe to fire with the index finger in front of the guard.
I'm not saying that all guns are safe to shoot that way, but if the gun is long enough to support the index finger like the gun in the photo I attached then it’s safe to do so.
 
Ozzieman, let me quote the question that was asked again and highlight the important parts.

Does anyone think it's a great idea to shoot any revolver with a finger hooked around the trigger guard . . .much less a single action magnum?
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According to this, the question was asked about ANY revolver....much less a single action. So the concern was about any revolver which looks to be double actions AND last....single actions.

My answer was if you own or are going to be shooting all types of revolvers than its not a good idea to get into the habit of putting you finger on the trigger guard since not all revolvers let your finger sit safely far behind the front of the cylinder. Look at Markallens post 1 page back with his 2 revolvers. How far is the trigger guard from the front of the cylinder on the bottom revolver compared to the top one?
 
So I guess your saying that the attached photo is not the correct way to handle a gun. In fact it is dangerious and the person shooting this gun is wrong.
That is what your saying???
 
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I would question the wisdom of the high thumb by the rear cylinder gap.
If a case blew, there could be gas escaping through that rear gap, and cause injury to the shooters thumb so high right by the gap.

Hasn't everyone seen the internet photo of the guy who was holding the SW with his thumb in the semi auto hold, and the gas blow-by blew part of his thumb off?

I know, you are probably going to say that it is a photo of someone famous like Bob Munden holding it!LOL
Still doesn't negate the danger for the ordinary folks.
 
No, some one a little higher on the firearms list.
You should read his book,,,,,s! Elmer keith
Glad this is all in good natured argument.
We are both right,,, and both wrong.:D
Depending on how you look at it.:cool:
 
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Seems that's the only photo I can quickly find on the net of him shooting anything. Thing is I do see many of his guns and it seems he favored the single actions which might be a reason for his grip. Other revolver grip techniques from other pros seem quite different.

You can't honestly say that Jerry Miculik is not on the top list of revolver pros, are you? :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4 :D
 
Sucker punch!

I knew that I was falling for a sucker punch!

Who is Elmer Keith???


just kidding!:D

I had to pull out my copy of
"no Second Chance" by Bill Jordan.
He shows a picture of how to hold the revolver, and his finger is
in the classic under trigger guard positions, but what?
He says to use the weak thumb to cock!!
This from someone who shoots mainly with his single hand.
 
Nakanokalronin I will agree with you that for the average shooter or someone starting out placing the weak index finger on the front of the trigger guard is not correct.
This is not because it is dangerous in all cases. The main reason is that people have what I talked about in earlier, Mirror finger.
When you pull with your trigger finger, the brain can cause some movement in the weak hand index finger and if it’s on the trigger guard will pull the gun off target. This is worse when under stress or trying fast shots. It’s similar to when you anticipate the recoil of a hand gun and jerk the gun as you pull the trigger.
This was taught to me by a man that rode trains with Harry Truman and while he was riding with him he also carried a gun. I never met Elmer Keith but he had and Elmer was his hero, gun wise.
For anticipating recoil, he would hand me a revolver with 1, 2 or 3 rounds total. You never knew which chamber would be loaded or which was empty. It’s the best way to show you what you’re doing and stop you from jerking the trigger, it will also show you when you pull the gun off target if your finger is on the front of the trigger guard.
For me placing the finger on the front of the guard reduces muzzle flip and gets the gun back on target faster.
If you say placing your index finger on the guard doesn’t work for you, I won’t argue, it will not work for everyone. But for some it does work and work well. That doesn’t mean that its right or wrong, it just means that it’s right for some.
 
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