S&W Shield 9mm vs. Springfield XDS 9mm

Frankly said:
Momentum is not a driving force -- energy is.

I disagree. Momentum tracks most closely with penetration, and energy tracts most closely with total tissue damage (assuming that all of the energy is expended in the target in both cases). Of two cartridges with the same energy and the same bullet diameter and bullet type, the cartridge with the heavier bullet (and thus, more momentum) will penetrate farther. The one with the lighter bullet (and thus, more velocity) will expand more and earlier. The lighter bullet will cause more damage per inch of penetration, but the total damage over the entire length of penetration will be about the same for each bullet ... the heavier bullet just tends to spread that total damage out over a greater length of wound.

Personally, I usually "hedge my bet", and alternate lighter and heavier rounds (both full-spec, though) in my carry rounds. The only exception is right now, while the bears are awake, I often load more "heavies" with less expansion to give me a better chance of getting enough penetration.
 
On Topic: Get the Shield its cheaper and the differences are negligible.


Topic drift:



this notion that "modern" hollowpoints benefit only the 9mm and not all calibers equally is laughable...
Fair enough. Surely you know better than law enforcement agencies, trainers, ballistics experts, et al. The mass exodus from 40 over the past couple of year is purely coincidence.

Hehehe cant help my self.
It might be because most LEO's cant shoot worth a darn.
Same reason TR changed the New York Police dept to 32L.
Not because the caliber performed better, because he hoped his officers might be able to hit something with it.

My Self I carry a XD's 45 and I can control and hit with it.
 
I disagree. Momentum tracks most closely with penetration, and energy tracts most closely with total tissue damage (assuming that all of the energy is expended in the target in both cases).

Energy is a source, not a product. Recall the laws of thermodynamics.
 
Last edited:
You're setting up a false dichotomy of heavy/slow versus light/fast. That's not to the point. When heavier and faster goes up against lighter and slower, heavier and faster wins.

Not always. You can have a 155 grain .40 S&W bullet that is heavier and faster than a 147 grain 9mm, but the sectional density is much lower and that can cause a lack of penetration.

Also, we are not talking about rifle rounds here, and handgun rounds do not cause hydrostatic shock. I realize your opinion won't change, but you need to quit with the whole 9 vs 40 thing. You've hijacked this thread and turned it into another caliber war instead of what the OP meant for it to be. He said he wants a 9mm, and he is asking for help in deciding between those 2 guns.
 
Momentum is not a driving force -- energy is. Momentum is only a measure of motion's relative persistence.

I was using a colloquial phrase, not a direct description of the physics.

Any object in motion owes its momentum to the energy that has put it into motion.

Momentum is a product of mass and velocity, not its energy.

Look, whether we attribute it to energy, momentum, or circumvadial fertropian mertropathy of the third order, this is basic: a heavier, faster moving object will impact with greater force than a lighter, slower moving object. This applies to cars, trains, and, yes, bullets.

Yes more mass and more velocity means more energy too... But with bullets, heavier means slower... (when talking about the same caliber/loading) So you don't get heavy and fast... you can have heavy and slow or light and fast. (well you can do light and slow too if you wanted)


I disagree. Momentum tracks most closely with penetration

This...

During one of the many debates on bullet energy and penetration... I went over the physics of bullet penetration... Many people (most actually) disagreed with me.. And while I didn't go so far as to do calculations, and I didn't explain things as clearly as I could have... I knew I was on the right track with it. While I enjoy science and scientific inquiry, and am good at math (yet hate doing it) I am not an expert in the field of terminal effects.

So, I did some digging and research and found that all the experts that tested terminal performance professionally agreed with me... they also did a much better job at explaining the effects and why.


People claim the higher energy numbers of the 40 make it better, when energy is not that important as I explained above.

Even in rifle calibers, total energy is not the end all be all. In a rifle round, temporary cavity/cavitation is a big component of the bullet's terminal effects. They do not rely on penetration and direct tissue destruction alone, like handgun calibers.

Cavitation is a product of velocity, not energy. Two objects of the same size, shape, and velocity, but of differing mass, will produce the same cavitation in a fluid. (The added momentum of the heavier object will allow the object to travel farther through that fluid though, so it will create cavitation over a longer distance)

Lightweight and fast projectiles can do a whole lot of damage... just in a shallow area. They tend to lose out to heavier stuff on larger game due to that lack of penetration and deep damage. Heavier bullets hold together longer, and shed velocity less quickly, allowing the cavitation damage to reach deeper. (a product of momentum) Not to mention the benefits simple deep penetration gives as well.

Energy is really a byproduct of other factors that have/give the desired effects. Its not a useless figure, but it is not the deciding factor for performance. Its just an easy to understand figure for the layman, and provides an easier way to compare different loads.


40 is a good round, and it has some benefits in some areas over the 9mm... I believe barrier performance is better if I am remembering correctly, and it does have a little larger expanded diameter. It may also have some other fringe advantages... But those advantages are not very large, and have little practical effect on performance when the round hits a target.

(Really the argument that a millimeter or two added width to expansion makes a difference is silly... "That 9mm barely missed the heart, should have used a 40, it would have expanded bigger"... And what? Missed the heart a little less? Nick the heart a little, add a little extra bleeding?... Its not like it would have expanded enough to do real damage to the heart... the bullet isn't going to jump an inch to the left or anything.)

For the most part and in most situations, the 9mm is just as good. It also has advantages like cost, more capacity, and lower recoil. (I personally can tell the difference between them when fired from the same platform, and my fiance definitely can)

It is those advantages, which I think are more practical concerns, which put the 9mm in the position of being a better choice overall.


I will not begrudge anyone for choosing 40.. but I don't feel it does anyone a service, especially new shooters, to make claims about the 40 which are not true, relevant, or have any practical effect on terminal effectiveness.
 
Last edited:
I bought a Shield last month, put 200rnds through it, and am ready to sell it. The grip is too thin and short even with an after-market mod. If you're leaning towards the Shield, imo get the compact instead since it's basically the same gun but can accept full-size and extended mags.
 
I bought a Shield last month, put 200rnds through it, and am ready to sell it.

The grip is too thin and short.


With the shield and pistols like it... Comfort and shootability are compromised for the sake of concealability. Pretty much all small single stacks will have this same problem. Some designs make mitigate it better, but ultimately its a trade off.


If you do not need the thinness, I suggest a double stack sub-compact like the G26 or M&P compact. (or other similar designs) The wider grip really improves shooting comfort and recoil control.

If the short grip gives you pause, then a G19 and similar sized pistols may be the better choice... just remember that concealability, or ease thereof, decreases as you gain size and shooting comfort.
 
With the shield and pistols like it... Comfort and shootability are compromised for the sake of concealability. Pretty much all small single stacks will have this same problem. Some designs make mitigate it better, but ultimately its a trade off.


If you do not need the thinness, I suggest a double stack sub-compact like the G26 or M&P compact. (or other similar designs) The wider grip really improves shooting comfort and recoil control.

If the short grip gives you pause, then a G19 and similar sized pistols may be the better choice... just remember that concealability, or ease thereof, decreases as you gain size and shooting comfort.
Glock isn't an option due to grip angle and low weight. No more plastic guns for me. I'm thinking a striker-fired 1911 for normal carry, and a Ruger SP101 2" for pocket carry.
 
Glock isn't an option due to grip angle and low weight. No more plastic guns for me. I'm thinking a striker-fired 1911.

Sounds like a Kimber Solo... the width is a little more, and the weight is a little less than the Shield.

Something like the Solo may be a wash though, a bit more width, but lower weight... May end up feeling similar.

Added weight can help a good bit at reducing felt recoil, but I think a double stack would be more effective than a few ounces of weight in an otherwise similar sized pistol.


As far as grip angle, I have found the Gen 4 glocks to not be that bad... I hated the Gen 3 glocks... The M&P series does not have this angle issue, and I like my Compact.

And don't give up on polymer pistols, there are quite a few good ones out there. :cool:
 
BlackBook said:
I bought a Shield last month, put 200rnds through it, and am ready to sell it. The grip is too thin and short even with an after-market mod.

I carry (each about 50% of the time) two very different EDC primary guns: a 10mm Kimber Eclipse 1911, and a S&W69 4-1/4" 5-shot L-Frame .44mag. I like them both, a LOT. But their grips are VERY different: the 1911 has ultra-thin cocobolo wood grip panels on it, and the 69 has the large X500 rubber grip. The X500 rubber grip is much wider and feels "more round", whereas the 1911 ultra-thin grip feels very "rectangular": much longer than it is wide. I prefer the way the ultra-thin 1911 grip feels ... it gives me a much better sense of where the gun is pointing, even when using the very relaxed grip that I prefer on all my handguns. The big, fat, rubber grip on the 69 IS very welcome, though, when I'm shooting full-spec .44mag rounds. But I much prefer the feel of the ultra-thin wood grip on my 1911.
 
Last edited:
When I shot the 9mm Shield a while back, I found the safety difficult to operate with my larger size paws. Shot great, but I'd get one with no safety if I went that direction.
 
There are at least three threads with "Shield" in the topic....

There has to be 8 or 9 more "9mm" or "concealable" topics.....in all of which, the S&W Shield is highly lauded.

An overwhelming endorsement, I should think.
 
in all of which, the S&W Shield is highly lauded.

For very good reason, yes...

S&W did a pretty good job balancing the size, capacity, and shootability of the Shield. Its been proven reliable, with only the occasional problem pistols getting out into users hands, which is unfortunately going to happen for any product.

If the ergonomics of the Shield work for you, then its a very good choice.
 
This thread reminds me that I have two Kahr's that are the same size as the Shield and XDs. The P9 and CW9.

The OP might consider these as additional options.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHr8oHEuHrw

Alternately, if the OP wants to go "old school" and get a piece of history, look into the 9x18 Polish P64. Same size as these pistols, with a touch of character. I personally really like the lines and the metal work on the P64. A lot of character.

It's about $250 at Aimsurplus, so $100 less than the Shield. Swap out the $5 hammer spring (a 20 minute easy task) to improve the trigger and it's a great little carry gun. Accurate little workhorse, and I can personally attest to it. Mine is absurdly accurate. Here's another accurate one on Youtube. Guy hit 50% at 123 yards on a 12x18 steel plate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_HfEJYSUcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rrZPf9NmV0
 
Last edited:
Just picked up an S&W M&P9 with no safety. I like it so far just fine, but don't have any real experience with it yet.
Question, I hear a lot of you folks referring to this gun as a Shield? Is that an acronym for this pistol? I don't see any reference to that in the paperwork.
 
Just picked up an S&W M&P9 with no safety. I like it so far just fine, but don't have any real experience with it yet.
Question, I hear a lot of you folks referring to this gun as a Shield? Is that an acronym for this pistol? I don't see any reference to that in the paperwork.
There's the M&P, the M&P compact, and the M&P Shield. Three diferent guns.
 
Blackbook said:
There's the M&P, the M&P compact, and the M&P Shield. Three diferent guns.
I know what the compact is, but can you tell me what the difference is between the M&P9 and the Shield? Thanks. :)
 
I've had the xds for 2 years now with no problems mines a 45 though. I only have about 150 rounds through it and no problems.
 
Back
Top