S&W Model 10's and a comment

Z

ZVP

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FYI:
The 201 Handguns Buyers Guide has a good article written up on the S&W Model 10 Family of revolvers! A little history, plenty of facts and plenty of good opnions about the model. Not sure who authored it, maybe Ayoob?
Everyone who owns one or is just intersted ought to read this!
Man, the more I read-up on the Model 10, the more fascinated I get about it!
I bought mine beause I wnted a 4" .38 Special , I got a really good deal from a friend, and Heavy Barrels on rifles or revolvers have always intrested me.
To start off, with the Heavy Barrel the Model 10 just looks "right"! Macho?
Balanced for sure! the little extra weight forward, makes you tend to hold a lot steadier on target and if that's all it takes to pull those impressive Wins on the competition circut, it ought to really aid the average shooter! I really noticed the difference between mine and my Brother in laws Combat Masterpiece(?) I think that's what they call the adj sight thin barrel model? His revolver seems to balance just ahead of the Cylinder where my HB carries it's weight way farther forward. It really helps me wobble a lot less!
I wish my M&P had the optional adjustment screw behind the trigger! We adjusted his trigger about 1/3 turn and the trigger became a thing of beauty1 Lighter, Crisper, andit seemes to have a faster lock time too! Howeber it adjusts the linkages, it sure works!
For any trigger improvement on my Model 10 No Dash, I need to rely on a good Gunsmith and perhaps a new Spring Kit. My Stock trigger is pretty hard to pull through D/A bu5 S/A it's a beauty! I bought the revolver to learn amd use D/A only. The revolver is capable ofpretty impressive preformance in the D/A mode and I can't think of a better gun to learn on than a GOOD Combat revolver!
That's the way I am shooting both my Model 10 and Model 36, D/A only!
Today I was watching a western andobserving the old Navy Model C&B revolvers, then the 1873 Peacemaker and my Model 10, it dawned on me how little the requirements for s good fighting handgun had changed over the ages.
Fixed sights (must be pretty well factory centered!) are a thing of beauty, crisp and clear enough for quick aquisition and can't be knocked out of adjustment. Over the decades the Navy model, Peacemaker, and Model 10 all share this trait!
The revolvers needed to be chambered for an effective caliber, capable of good penetration, accuracy and had toprovide sufficent Muzzle energy to end a fight quickly with recoil that is easily controlable to aid follow up shots. Killing an advisary with one shot need not be required butthe prospect of ending agression and/or attack is necessary!
Eben the lower muzzle Energy .36 Cap and Ball Black Powder load offered all these points and the .38 Special vastly improved the spec's enough that many Militarys and Law Enforcement agencys realised this and quickly got on the >38 Special bandwagon! The venerable Peacemaker with it's powerfull .45 long Colt Caliber offeredhigh M/E and bullet wightpreforming well as a true "Knock-Down" caliber exceeding the .36 C&B by leagues,but at the cost of heavy recoil and extra time recovering the sight picture. It exceeds the .38 Special also but at the height of it's popularity, few D/A guns were available so the user wasn't outgunned by similar revolvers. Eben today. a shooter heeled with a .45 Long Colt Peacemaker is VERY well armed anda true danger to advisarys!
The.38 Special Hand Ejector and subisiquent models had features that endeared it to users because of it's ease of carry, quicker reload times and spee d of fire. The shooter coud carry more rounds of ammo for reloads and it's slightly smaller dimensions made all day carry more comfortble for Police and soilders.
For a little over 115 years the .38 Special D/A revolver was top choice for self defense be it military Law Enforcement or personal! The relatively heavy standard 158 gr LRN bullet hits with authority and good penetration. Modern day lighter bullet, high velocity ammo increases the preformance andbroad applications that it is noted for. The advent ofmore powerfull than the old Tresury load are avilable today in the form of the +P loads! These approach 9mm parabellum and .357 Magnum cartriges, A definate improvement over the standard loading. However, even when compared to these superior calibers, the old .38 special still looks and moreso preforms very well! Well enough that here in 2014 many Police officers consider it a sufficent caliber to carry for both primary armiment (for Detectives and plain cloths cary) and for some Police Depts and Security Forces and some foreign Governments still carry these revolvers.
The main popularity of the .38 Special today is for personal defense weapons. The modern "J" frrame S&W and meduim frame imports lie Rossi and Tarus are all immensely popular! New models come out every year and the list is growing instead of dwindling for this over century old caliber. Most versions are built with the +P cartrige in mind making these small revolvers very efficemt!
Please do not succomb to the urge to load your older steel frame basic .38 Special guns with +P cartriges! Harm to both shooter and gun could occur rendering the weapon unusable for further protection. For these Steel Frame revolvers, just load factory 158 gr cartriges. They'll last forever when loaded responsibly.
I feel well armed with my S&W's loaded with todays high preformance, light bullet, low pressure rounds. The bullets preform as touted and no harm comes to the gun. I can easilly control recoil and Muzzle blast and flash do not incapacitate ME!
If past poularity is any indication, the .38 Special is alive and healthy here in 2014 and it seems wy into the future!
JMHO
BPDave
 
Please do not succomb to the urge to load your older steel frame basic .38 Special guns with +P cartriges! Harm to both shooter and gun could occur rendering the weapon unusable for further protection. For these Steel Frame revolvers, just load factory 158 gr cartriges. They'll last forever when loaded responsibly.
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This has been extensively discussed at various times on this forum. Smith and Wesson changed its method of heat treating steel in the latter 1950s. If a revolver is marked with a model number on the crane, then it is safe for +P ammo. If it simply marked by the model name such as "Military and Police," then caution should be exercised in shooting +P ammo. While one might shoot a number of rounds without incident, the +P ammo might also damage the older revolvers.

Some folks will fire a cylinder full of +P ammo to see how it shoots in the pre-model number revolvers. Then they practice with standard pressure loads while keeping +P loaded in the gun while actually carrying it or using it for home defense.
 
Back in the early 60's a NYPD officer killed a polar bear at the Staten Island zoo trying to rescue a 16yr old boy who hopped the fence into the bears den on a dare and was mauled. The officer used a S&W Mod 10.
 
Man do I have me a soft spot for an.old k frame .38!

My first handgun was a 70's era model 10 clunker. As a boy, which wasn't too awfully long ago my dad would take me to the local bowling pin shoots. I fairer pretty well for a kid with a $100 wheelgun.

It also got me into reloading.

Bigger of course being better it got traded for a 686 in high school. Had a Highway Patrolman too. Once I was out on my own I walked into a pawn shop once & there was a 4" K38 five screw that had obviously seen better days. She's a '51 model & is the sweetest shooting god dang thing I've wrapped my mits around.

I had a nice little farm south of town for a few years & marked me off a 100 meter range. I could consistently put five out of six in a pie plate once I learned the drop from 25m, which I remember was about 2'

I got pretty good with that ole K38 I felt & she almost never left my hip. Dad came out one Thanksgiving & we were standing on the front porch when a big ole fat bunny went hopping across the drive. I kept lots of bunny chow around for 'em & kept the coyotes at bay with a Marlin .22 mag for these very opportunities.

I asked dad if he wanted bunny stew for dinner & he thought there was no way I could hit him at what we were guessing to be about 30m. I popped his head clean off to save meat & that was the best Thanksgiving dinner I've had to date as that's the only bunny I've harvested with a handgun

Later on while riding through town the K38 slipped out of my holster and skid down the road at 40mph. She was rough to begin with but now half the front sight is gone & the left side looks like it got in a fight with an angle grinder. Still, she shoots like a dream!

Couple years later I got a crappy appartment in town & one night was waiting on a buddy to come by for a beer. I was sitting at my computer desk when I heard footsteps coming down the stairs. I leave the door unlocked when I'm home & everything seemed hunky dory until the steps behind me didn't respond to my verbal greeting. There had been a slew of robberies in the neighborhood recently. The footsteps continued into my home so I grabbed the K38 which conveniently was kept next to my laptop full of Remington FBI loads. I peek around the corner to see a stranger about my age turned away from me in my spare room looking at my motorcycle.

I firmly cleared my throat & asked him why he was in my home. He was at a loss for words all of a sudden & judging from his demeanor was quite drunk. I let him know he should be on his way & walked behind him to the stairs where the was at least another half dozen people standing. Someone said they thought there was a party here.

Whatever the reason was I told them they had the wrong pad & to be on thier way. They thought that was a great idea. I'm almost certain after thinking about it, that it was a bunch of kids looking for a party & were simply rude as they sent someone stumbling into someone else's home without a knock or announcement. But I am glad to not only have been armed but I found I was cool headed when faced with an uncertain situation.

From small game to cheap target practice to self defense I don't hardly think one can find a better wheelgun. And man, that five screw action is something to behold even after years of abuse, she keeps on tickin'.

So yeah. I got a soft spot for the ole K frame Smiths.
 
I've been debating the whole +P thing for about a decade. Maybe the greatest myth in shooting. From my testing and experience I know that mainstream 38 Special +P is actually a mild target load. I should give up because way too many folks refuse to see the truth.

I summed it up here:

http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html

Here's the 1942 M&P through which I fired 500 +Ps and 600 +P+s to see if a pre-model revolver would be harmed by such ammo. It came as no surprise to me at all when it wasn't. Now will come the inevitable downpour of posts from guys telling me how wrong I am and how I don't know what I'm talking about.


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"Here's the 1942 M&P through which I fired 500 +Ps and 600 +P+s"

Your gun. Do with it whatever you want.

Why should any of us believe the manufacturer's recommendations?

I know one ijit who started off with a nice, solid WW II Victory model, did basically what you did, and ended up with endshake so monumental that it was misfiring about 30% of the time.

When he brought it to me to repair it, he couldn't understand why I wouldn't touch it.

As I said, he's an ijit.
 
Right, it's your gun. You won't see me loading cartriges with those pressures,
I LOVE my sweet Nickled Chief!
ZVP
 
I've commented on that link before specifically to the inaccuracies in quoted pressure specs and the folly in assuming that peak pressure and velocity directly correlate. I really don't feel like rehashing all of it though because that tree has been circled enough and those curious enough about it can gain all the info they want via the search function.

I do, however, have to wonder why someone would even want to shoot very much +P ammunition through a vintage gun. The S&W M10 has been produced in greater numbers than just about any other revolver in history and if someone wants to shoot +P ammo, a modern specimen which is rated by the factory for the use of said ammo isn't difficult to find or particularly expensive. To me, the thought of shooting a steady diet of +P ammunition through a pre-model number K-Frame is akin to buying an antique car and driving it like a scalded cat all the time: sure you might be able to get away with it, but there are better, cheper platforms that can accomplish the same thing.

Everyone can do as he likes with his own guns, but personally I'll take the manufacturer's recommendations with a little more weight than some anonymous blog post.
 
And there you go. All of the above comments are based on the fallacy that +P is a high pressure load. Max allowable is 21,500, The current +P from Winchester, Remington etc. is 18,500 - 20,000 (I'm told some go 20,000, I have not seen it that high). So +P at 3,000 BELOW max allowable pressure is too high? OK.

Like I said, I should give up. The myth cannot be overcome.
 
And there you go. All of the above comments are based on the fallacy that +P is a high pressure load. Max allowable is 21,500, The current +P from Winchester, Remington etc. is 18,500 - 20,000 (I'm told some go 20,000, I have not seen it that high). So +P at 3,000 BELOW max allowable pressure is too high? OK.
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Where are you getting those figures?

& while we're at it, what are the pressures the vintage ammo listed in the blog running?
 
Yes, yes, it's certainly a fantasy that he had owned, and shot, his Victory for nearly a decade before he decided to start running a steady diet of +P ammunition through it, after which the wheels started coming off the bus.

After all, it's only a fantasy that I had shot that particular revolver many times over the years, and up until he decided to go all +P all the time, it was only a fantasy that the endshake was well within tolerance.

It's also just a fantasy that Smith & Wesson, the fantasy manufacturer of this fantasy revolver, engaging in many flights of fantasy, specifically recommends NOT firing +P or above ammunition in pre-model number guns.

As for your claims, as far as I'm concerned, they are fantasy, because I WITNESSED the destruction of a revolver that had previous had no issues at all.

As I said, it's YOUR (fantasy) gun, so you can do anything your (fantasy) desires with it.

But please don't be a D.N. and try to say that "well this worked for me," so it will incontrovertably work for EVERYONE.
 
Did a search, couldn't find the answer:

Knowing that a Model 19 is only built for limited .357 use, not extended use, and that the 19 and 10 have some physical differences in the way the cylinder is machined, could someone please summarize how a later 10 (stamped crane) and 19 are different in their actual ability to tolerate recoil and pressure?

I have a 1960s NYPD heavy barrel 10. I have no interest in handloading magnums or even in shooting much +P, but I am curious what metallurgy and mechanical differences, if any, make the 19 able to deal with .357 energies more than the 10, or if it really isn't different outside of chambering.

Thanks!
 
MI- It's not a fantasy that SAAMI lists 21,500 PSI as max pressure for the 38 Special*. It's not a fantasy that current +P is no more than 20,000 and most is 18,500. It is a fact that +P is well below the maximum allowable pressure. All of the concerns regarding +P are predicated on the notion that it is a hot load. It is not.

As for your friend's gun, I wasn't there. Apparently it finally wore out. If the gun dated from well before 1970 all of the factory ammo shot through it matched or exceeded current +P pressure levels. He didn't step up by using it. You say I base my opinion on my one gun. Not true, I cited numerous examples in my statement. You then say I'm wrong because you know of one gun damaged by +P. I say it wasn't because +P doesn't exceed SAAMI specs. That's the simple fact we can't ignore. +P does not exceed SAAMI specs. Whatever anyone thinks, or has heard, is irrelevant. All we have to do is look at the numbers. An 18,500 load should not batter a gun when SAAMI says 21,500 is OK.

Hal- I don't know the pressure on the vintage ammo because being out of print the manufacturers don't provide the info. But it was all made under SAAMI supervision so I assume it did not exceed their limits.

BTW- Saw a Gunbroker auction for a S&W 357 Magnum. The seller noted the gun would also handle 38 Special +P. He felt the need to reassure bidders this 357 Magnum could handle 38 +P. There you go. The myth is alive and well.


*It used to be higher but in 1974 SAAMI reduced it for no reason other than the lawyers suggested they do so. I doubt the guns suddenly got weaker that year. I think it was reduced from 23,500 to 21,500 but I am not positive on the older number.
 
Love the model 10. Here's my 10-5, a classic snub, wearing Don Collins bird's eye maple. Accurate, dependable, versatile, beautiful.

 
38 special +P ammo

SAAMI maximum pressures for a 38 special 21,500 PSI. SAAMI maximum pressure for 38 Special +P ammo 18,500 PSI. 18,500 PSI/21,500PSI = .8604 or 8.64% margin of safety. So why is it not safe to shoot 38 special + P ammo in a revolver chambered for it?

Please be able to quantify your response.

Added. Mr. Irwin is it possible that your friends Victory revolver had been chambered for the 38 S&W round, and later converted to chamber 38 special ammo?
 
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I have no axe to grind in this discussion, and the analogy may not be perfect, but just because my car redlines at 6,000 RPM doesn't mean I want to drive it at 5,000+ on a regular basis. I'd rather stay under 3,000, change the oil regularly and have it last for 20 years.
 
S.Pig:
It's not a fantasy that current +P is no more than 20,000 and most is 18,500.
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When you list this sort of specific information and don't cite a source when requested . . .

O.Bear:
SAAMI maximum pressures for a 38 special 21,500 PSI. SAAMI maximum pressure for 38 Special +P ammo 18,500 PSI. 18,500 PSI/21,500PSI = .8604 or 8.64% margin of safety. So why is it not safe to shoot 38 special + P ammo in a revolver chambered for it?

Please be able to quantify your response.
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First, I don't think anybody has categorically stated it is unsafe to shoot +P ammo. End shake and other damage are more likely to result than a catastrophic failure ending in injury. I carry +P in an alloy J-frame and a Colt Agent, both rated for standard pressure ammo. I practice with standard pressure loads. I figure if I have to shoot five or six rounds out of these guns, I've got bigger things to worry about than premature wear.

Quantify my results? How? Can you quantify the assertion that +P ammo will not hurt older revolvers? The fact is that, except for anecdotal data like Mike Irwin's, nobody has that data except maybe the manufacturers and even they would not have complete data. They also don't release that kind of data to the public. I take that back. In fact, they sorta' have released the data by warning against +P ammo. Why in the world would they warn against +P ammo in older revolvers unless there was a reason to do so?
 
The pressure limits I noted were from SAAMI. The cartridge pressures I listed came from the manufacturers. Winchester, Remington and Federal make this info available if you ask. I asked. I assumed it would be known this came from the ammo makers but that was a bad assumption on my part.

PS: I find it interesting that SAAMI lowered the allowable pressure limit on the 38 Special in 1974, the same year that +P went into production. Seems like collaborative effort to weaken the 38 Special loads and hide it from the public to me.
 
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