Cyanide971
New member
Don't swear off the PPQ and VP9 because of looks, especially if you have not had a chance to actually hold one. You would be doing yourself a great disservice if you went that route!
S&W M&P 9mm trigger bashing exggarated??
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Uncle Malice
New member
I have always been a huge fan of the M&P platform. I own and love the VP9 and P320 as well, but I still think the M&P with a full Apex kit is the best striker platform on the market these days.
The newer ones definitely have a much better trigger than the old guns did from the factory. But a complete Apex kit (FSS kit or DCAEK w/ polymer AEK trigger) are just fantastic. David Bowie also does an amazing M&P trigger job for only about $100 and it's like 1911 crisp, and cheaper than Apex... you'll just wait a little bit for the turnaround time.
Someone mentioned that it's nonsense to spend upwards of $150 for the trigger upgrade on a gun that can be had for around $400.... I can understand the premise behind that, but an M&P with a complete Apex kit is worth more than $550 in my opinion. Add another $150 for good sights like Trijicon HD's and you're at about $700.... that's how I run my M&P's and I do it to them all.
Between the FNS and the M&P, I would go with the M&P 10 times out of 10. That's not to say the FNS is a bad gun... it's not.... but it's just to say that a well situated M&P is really hard to beat.
Good luck with whatever you choose. Cheers!
The newer ones definitely have a much better trigger than the old guns did from the factory. But a complete Apex kit (FSS kit or DCAEK w/ polymer AEK trigger) are just fantastic. David Bowie also does an amazing M&P trigger job for only about $100 and it's like 1911 crisp, and cheaper than Apex... you'll just wait a little bit for the turnaround time.
Someone mentioned that it's nonsense to spend upwards of $150 for the trigger upgrade on a gun that can be had for around $400.... I can understand the premise behind that, but an M&P with a complete Apex kit is worth more than $550 in my opinion. Add another $150 for good sights like Trijicon HD's and you're at about $700.... that's how I run my M&P's and I do it to them all.
Between the FNS and the M&P, I would go with the M&P 10 times out of 10. That's not to say the FNS is a bad gun... it's not.... but it's just to say that a well situated M&P is really hard to beat.
Good luck with whatever you choose. Cheers!
LockedBreech
New member
Malice, I also noted in that post that if the pistol REALLY works for you, it is reasonable. Heck, it's a lot less than some people spend on 1911 upgrades.
In your situation (absolutely meshing with the platform) I think the Apex kit makes perfect sense.
In your situation (absolutely meshing with the platform) I think the Apex kit makes perfect sense.
That sounds like the 40S&W Range and Carry kit, as those mags are 15 rds. The 9mm variant uses the 17 rd mags. Or it could be a misprint somewhere. There are no factory 15 rd 9mm magazines that I know of.
Edit: I stand corrected, there are 15 rd fullsize 9mm mags for the M&P. I learned something today
. Do make sure though that whatever SKU you order comes with those.http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_842047_-1_758017_757846_757837_ProductDisplayErrorView_N
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marine6680
New member
If my M&P had a stock 2015 Era trigger in it... And I compared it to my VP9...
The VP9 would win... I love my VP9, I only have minor complaints about it. (mostly the finger grooves, as I am not a fan of them on any pistol, but they are at least minimal on the VP9)
When I put the small back strap and medium palm swells on the VP9, it felt fantastic in my hands.
I love the paddle mag release.
The trigger is very good, with only minimal creep. It has improved over time, as it has worn in.
But my M&P has an Apex FSS that I have tuned to my preferred style of pull, and that trigger makes the M&P truly awesome. The M&P feels good in the hand, though just a touch less nice than the VP9.
The range and carry kit is also a nice way to go, extra mag, holster, mag pouch, and a mag loader. I paid $525 for mine in the store 2 years ago, when standard M&Ps cost $500... The Apex trigger cost me $125... $650 total cost.
I paid $575 for my VP9, so it was less overall, but I had to pay $37 for an extra mag. (that was a lucky sale price I found, most pay near $50 for one) I can find M&P mags for a bit less than $30.
The VP9 would win... I love my VP9, I only have minor complaints about it. (mostly the finger grooves, as I am not a fan of them on any pistol, but they are at least minimal on the VP9)
When I put the small back strap and medium palm swells on the VP9, it felt fantastic in my hands.
I love the paddle mag release.
The trigger is very good, with only minimal creep. It has improved over time, as it has worn in.
But my M&P has an Apex FSS that I have tuned to my preferred style of pull, and that trigger makes the M&P truly awesome. The M&P feels good in the hand, though just a touch less nice than the VP9.
The range and carry kit is also a nice way to go, extra mag, holster, mag pouch, and a mag loader. I paid $525 for mine in the store 2 years ago, when standard M&Ps cost $500... The Apex trigger cost me $125... $650 total cost.
I paid $575 for my VP9, so it was less overall, but I had to pay $37 for an extra mag. (that was a lucky sale price I found, most pay near $50 for one) I can find M&P mags for a bit less than $30.
ok
So this whole Apex trigger upgrade talk for the M&P, exactly how does that work? You send in the gun to Apex to do the upgrade?? I would never attempt
to do that myself? Or does a gun shop do it? It does NOT void the warranty?
Sorry, I am sure these questions have been asked before.
So this whole Apex trigger upgrade talk for the M&P, exactly how does that work? You send in the gun to Apex to do the upgrade?? I would never attempt
to do that myself? Or does a gun shop do it? It does NOT void the warranty?
Sorry, I am sure these questions have been asked before.
Uncle Malice
New member
You can do it yourself if you're so inclined. It's really not that difficult. Apex also has great customer service and will help you over the phone if you get stuck.
But, if you're not comfortable with that, your local gun shop should also have a gunsmith on hand that can do it or at the very least be able to recommend a local person that can do it.
You order the parts from Apex and have them installed locally. It won't void the warranty. S&W has fantastic customer service and warranty service. That's the biggest reason why I really stick with the platform. I have purchased a well used gun for what I thought was a great deal.... only to find out that it jammed a lot. I cleaned it and lubed it well and it did not resolve the issue.
When I called S&W to ask for a suggestion on what to try, they sent me a prepaid label right away and I sent the gun to them. After about a week, they called me and said they were not able to fix the gun because there was a problem with the frame.... I thought I was out of luck, until the rep continued to tell me that they would be sending me a brand new replacement gun from the factory at no charge.
I've had a few other minor experiences with them and everything has been excellent.
With all of that said... I would suggest getting the M&P and spending some time really getting acquainted with the gun. Put at least 1,000 rounds through it to see if it's what you wanted. If you get to the point and your only complaint is that you might like a better trigger, do the upgrade. If you get to that point and you love it as is... don't bother with the upgrade.... If you get to that point and you just don't like the gun... sell it and get something else.
But, if you're not comfortable with that, your local gun shop should also have a gunsmith on hand that can do it or at the very least be able to recommend a local person that can do it.
You order the parts from Apex and have them installed locally. It won't void the warranty. S&W has fantastic customer service and warranty service. That's the biggest reason why I really stick with the platform. I have purchased a well used gun for what I thought was a great deal.... only to find out that it jammed a lot. I cleaned it and lubed it well and it did not resolve the issue.
When I called S&W to ask for a suggestion on what to try, they sent me a prepaid label right away and I sent the gun to them. After about a week, they called me and said they were not able to fix the gun because there was a problem with the frame.... I thought I was out of luck, until the rep continued to tell me that they would be sending me a brand new replacement gun from the factory at no charge.
I've had a few other minor experiences with them and everything has been excellent.
With all of that said... I would suggest getting the M&P and spending some time really getting acquainted with the gun. Put at least 1,000 rounds through it to see if it's what you wanted. If you get to the point and your only complaint is that you might like a better trigger, do the upgrade. If you get to that point and you love it as is... don't bother with the upgrade.... If you get to that point and you just don't like the gun... sell it and get something else.
marine6680
New member
Yeah, put some rounds through first, you may find you don't need the Apex parts.
You may find a simple polish on the parts, may be all you want, or maybe change the hinged trigger out. Or maybe you choose to keep it all stock.
Either way, it's not difficult to do the Apex parts swap yourself. You need set of pin punches and a small hammer. A block of wood with a hole drilled in it to use as a armorer block.
There are three pins that you need to push out to do the installation. And when putting it back together, the trigger pin can be a little finicky to do, as you have a couple springs to go through, but it's not too bad.
Generally it's advisable to remove aftermarket parts before sending your pistol back, should you ever need to have it worked on for warranty... Mostly to make sure you don't loose those parts. S&W may swap them for stock parts. Just keep your original parts just in case you need to send it in.
Watch a few of Apex's videos online, and if you still don't want to do the work yourself, then a local shop should be able to do it for a modest fee. A gunsmith can also work over the stock trigger if you wanted to go that route, but it would cost more of a fee, in the end, the prices may even out between the kit or trigger job.
If you go the AEK route, which is best for a pistol that may get used for defense... All you change is a couple springs, the sear, and the striker block. The striker block is the most difficult part to do, as you need to remove the rear sight. It's optional, but without it, you do not get the full effect.
It's not too difficult to remove the rear sight with a punch, but a sight pusher makes it easier... But they cost about $60 and up. The biggest thing with the sights, is that they go in only one side, as the slot gets tighter in one direction.
You may find a simple polish on the parts, may be all you want, or maybe change the hinged trigger out. Or maybe you choose to keep it all stock.
Either way, it's not difficult to do the Apex parts swap yourself. You need set of pin punches and a small hammer. A block of wood with a hole drilled in it to use as a armorer block.
There are three pins that you need to push out to do the installation. And when putting it back together, the trigger pin can be a little finicky to do, as you have a couple springs to go through, but it's not too bad.
Generally it's advisable to remove aftermarket parts before sending your pistol back, should you ever need to have it worked on for warranty... Mostly to make sure you don't loose those parts. S&W may swap them for stock parts. Just keep your original parts just in case you need to send it in.
Watch a few of Apex's videos online, and if you still don't want to do the work yourself, then a local shop should be able to do it for a modest fee. A gunsmith can also work over the stock trigger if you wanted to go that route, but it would cost more of a fee, in the end, the prices may even out between the kit or trigger job.
If you go the AEK route, which is best for a pistol that may get used for defense... All you change is a couple springs, the sear, and the striker block. The striker block is the most difficult part to do, as you need to remove the rear sight. It's optional, but without it, you do not get the full effect.
It's not too difficult to remove the rear sight with a punch, but a sight pusher makes it easier... But they cost about $60 and up. The biggest thing with the sights, is that they go in only one side, as the slot gets tighter in one direction.
If you are new to handguns, the Apex kit may be more than you want to try to install yourself. If you have punched pins on a handgun or rifle, then you may give it a try, but some of the pins on my M&P took considerable persuasion, and I have pretty good roll pin, and standard punch sets. If you want to do the complete Apex kit, you will also need to remove the rear sight, which can be a little more complicated unless you have the right tools (like a sight drifter). You may want a gunsmith to do the upgrade for you.
I love my M&P (it is my CC companion), but if you want to buy a handgun with the best possible stock trigger, get a Walther PPQ. It is also one of the most accurate stock handguns you can buy. This is from a guy that has lost count of how many handguns I've shot over the past 58 years.
I love my M&P (it is my CC companion), but if you want to buy a handgun with the best possible stock trigger, get a Walther PPQ. It is also one of the most accurate stock handguns you can buy. This is from a guy that has lost count of how many handguns I've shot over the past 58 years.
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I have owned two or maybe three PPQs. I do think they have the nicest stock trigger, but there was nothing about them that to be exhibited greater mechanical accuracy than other pistols. The barrel to slide fit wasn't noticeably better, nor is the barrel itself of a dramatically higher quality than others (still a good barrel). I think the reason people consider it so accurate is frankly the trigger. That quality of trigger allows the shooter to get the accuracy out of the pistol easier than some of the competition. If other pistols had the same quality trigger, I believe they'd be just as "accurate". With handgun shooting there are so many human factors that a true comparison of mechanical accuracy would require a vise.
Been Glocked since 1999 and have never considered the plastic magic (or copy) of S&W. My S&W's are the older all steel only.marine6680
New member
That's alright, you can always go pick one up... Or any of the other fine pistols.
Can never have too many.
Glock makes a fine pistol... They are loved for a reason, and have earned a good reputation. (mostly on merit and and the rest on good marketing)
But there are several other pistols that are equal to a Glock, and may even be better. Egos, trigger... It's all subjective when you get past build quality and reliability.
Can never have too many.
Glock makes a fine pistol... They are loved for a reason, and have earned a good reputation. (mostly on merit and and the rest on good marketing)
But there are several other pistols that are equal to a Glock, and may even be better. Egos, trigger... It's all subjective when you get past build quality and reliability.
Well ... it only took Walther 15 years before simplifying and increasing the pull weight of the unique -and superb- trigger system of the P99 to produce the PPQ. Except when specific competition rules give the PPQ an advantage, I find the P99's trigger system to be superior and substantially more versatile.
marine6680
New member
I'm just not a fan of the p99...
Though it was Bond's gun in a few movies.
The PPQ is better feeling in the hand I feel. And while the DA/SA trigger is interesting on the P99, I don't think it is superior... Something about it feels off to me.
The VP9 is superior ergonomically in my hands to the PPQ, but the PPQ definitely has the better trigger. Well at least with the break. If my VP9 had a crisper break, then it would be just as good or better.
But in all honesty, I don't notice the creep when shooting.
Though it was Bond's gun in a few movies.
The PPQ is better feeling in the hand I feel. And while the DA/SA trigger is interesting on the P99, I don't think it is superior... Something about it feels off to me.
The VP9 is superior ergonomically in my hands to the PPQ, but the PPQ definitely has the better trigger. Well at least with the break. If my VP9 had a crisper break, then it would be just as good or better.
But in all honesty, I don't notice the creep when shooting.
By my count there are at least 6 different S&W triggers (in 9mm). The Pro models have the RAM which helps. But yes, the triggers, lock-up and accuracy (in 5" models) have all improved in the last few years.
If you plan on shooting IDPA or USPSA production, you can not change the exposed trigger. I keep hoping they will eventually put a metal trigger in the Pro models.
As to the OP, all internet bashing is likely exaggerated one way by detractors and the other way by promoters. To me, the original M&P triggers were worse than Glock triggers. The Pro series improved that and the sear upgrades improved it more. If you are planning on upgrading the trigger, to me it is worth it to get a Pro since the ram and better geometry are already there. Just a APEX competition spring kit and a tad of polish is all you need for a very good trigger. I have amazing triggers in my M&Ps, but there is customization, geometry changes, etc beyond what APEX does.
There are better factory triggers in other brands and if they appeal to you and you want to keep a stock trigger, worth considering. If trigger is very important to you and you want a striker fired pistol, the M&P can be made to be better than the Glock, XD and FNS. The P320 is newer and I have not worked on a trigger on one yet, but there is a chance that they can be made better than the best M&P triggers which put it very close to the good factory 1911 triggers. If you just want a polymer frame, then look at the CZ P09 and P07
If you plan on shooting IDPA or USPSA production, you can not change the exposed trigger. I keep hoping they will eventually put a metal trigger in the Pro models.
As to the OP, all internet bashing is likely exaggerated one way by detractors and the other way by promoters. To me, the original M&P triggers were worse than Glock triggers. The Pro series improved that and the sear upgrades improved it more. If you are planning on upgrading the trigger, to me it is worth it to get a Pro since the ram and better geometry are already there. Just a APEX competition spring kit and a tad of polish is all you need for a very good trigger. I have amazing triggers in my M&Ps, but there is customization, geometry changes, etc beyond what APEX does.
There are better factory triggers in other brands and if they appeal to you and you want to keep a stock trigger, worth considering. If trigger is very important to you and you want a striker fired pistol, the M&P can be made to be better than the Glock, XD and FNS. The P320 is newer and I have not worked on a trigger on one yet, but there is a chance that they can be made better than the best M&P triggers which put it very close to the good factory 1911 triggers. If you just want a polymer frame, then look at the CZ P09 and P07
That's me too.
For the M&P, I tried a new production full size recently and the trigger definitely is better than the ones I shot years ago (even with APEX). I could live with the current trigger I think, though I'd still take a Glock trigger over it (but I'm an oddball I know).
I'd like to get my hands on a M&P .45 Compact to see how it compares to my Glock 30S. Haven't found one at a local store to try out though.
Shadi Khalil
New member
I have a 2013 production trigger on my M&P 9c and I'd say the trigger is as good as any striker fire in its class. Now, the M&P 45c I recently handled of an older vintage had a trigger that was not so great.