kayakersteve
New member
Deaf smith - May want to go back and re-read newfrontier's post - he has already answered some of your questions. no need to get nasty either.
S&W .500 350 Gr Bullet Vs. Bears And Grizzly Bears?
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freedom475
New member
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Deaf Smith
New member
Freedom,
He thinks a 12 gauge slug would be ineffective on a charging bear at close range (as all charging bears would be) and I feel it would be effective. It has nothing to do with if a .500 works.
kayakersteve,
When he says they recommend them cause they are 'cheap' how does he know? Did he ask them?
Could it be they yes, are cheaper than a $1000 handgun, but just as effective?
BTW they also issue .300 Winchester Magnum rifles. Are they cheap?
Look, a bear is not a Rino or Elephant. The skull is not that thick. And the ranges will be very very short.
While it's fine to use that .500 with special bullets, but most folks can get by with a simple shotgun (shades of Slow Joe Biden) in this case if they want to put up with carrying a long gun.
Deaf
He thinks a 12 gauge slug would be ineffective on a charging bear at close range (as all charging bears would be) and I feel it would be effective. It has nothing to do with if a .500 works.
kayakersteve,
When he says they recommend them cause they are 'cheap' how does he know? Did he ask them?
Could it be they yes, are cheaper than a $1000 handgun, but just as effective?
BTW they also issue .300 Winchester Magnum rifles. Are they cheap?
Look, a bear is not a Rino or Elephant. The skull is not that thick. And the ranges will be very very short.
While it's fine to use that .500 with special bullets, but most folks can get by with a simple shotgun (shades of Slow Joe Biden) in this case if they want to put up with carrying a long gun.
Deaf
freedom475
New member
I'm out
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Deaf Smith
New member
freedom475,
50 yards? Are you sure that is the range they shoot at charging bears? Now they might see the bear to begin with at 50 yards, or hear the bear in the brush, but start shooting? Is that the average range when charged by a bear they shoot?
Did you ask the Alaska dept why the prefer 12 Gauge AND .300 WM long guns? I mean if 'easy to hit' was the reason why not .243 or .410? Or for that matter why didn't they prefer buckshot at 10 yards?
Yes a miss means a miss, so is it easier to hit with a 600 grain 1500 fps slug from a shotgun or a 350 gr 1400 fps slug from a revolver?
Again the poster questioned the effectiveness of a 12 gauge slug on a charging bear and I questioned right back.
Deaf
50 yards? Are you sure that is the range they shoot at charging bears? Now they might see the bear to begin with at 50 yards, or hear the bear in the brush, but start shooting? Is that the average range when charged by a bear they shoot?
Did you ask the Alaska dept why the prefer 12 Gauge AND .300 WM long guns? I mean if 'easy to hit' was the reason why not .243 or .410? Or for that matter why didn't they prefer buckshot at 10 yards?
Yes a miss means a miss, so is it easier to hit with a 600 grain 1500 fps slug from a shotgun or a 350 gr 1400 fps slug from a revolver?
Again the poster questioned the effectiveness of a 12 gauge slug on a charging bear and I questioned right back.
Deaf
newfrontier45
Moderator
Because they're cheap and plentiful and 'may' work reasonably well. They issue shotguns because .375's cost three or four times as much and are less suited to other law enforcement purposes.
For the record, what I questioned was the silly statement that a 12ga slug will do a better job than a .500. This is just dead wrong. Some folks are just convinced that shotgun slugs are the Hammer of Thor. Even when contradicted with facts. Fact, we KNOW from 100yrs of modern rifles in Africa that deep bone breaking penetration requires heavy-for-caliber, tough bullets. Shotgun slugs are heavy but not heavy enough for their diameter. Foster slugs actually have a lower sectional density than a round ball. Brenneke's have a sectional density comparable to light to middle weight pistol bullets. They 'may' look menacing to the uninitiated but have a quarter inch deep hollow skirt and a quarter inch hole all the way through them. For a 12ga slug to penetrate as well as a 440gr .500 (a 430gr .475 would be better) it would have to weigh, wait for it........940gr. Your vaunted Black Magic will penetrate like a 225gr .45Colt. You really wanna trust your life to a slug that behaves like a 225gr .45? Most would consider that too light for deer.
Again, you're trusting the government to make you choice for you???
Like I said, their testing is heavily flawed and outdated. By their results, they conclude that both the .44Mag and .45-70 are poor choices but that the 220gr .30-06 CoreLokt is excellent. This is based on outdated 240gr JHP's in the .44 and standard pressure 405gr jacketed bullets for the .45/70. Useless information. We know that in real world testing with proper loads the heavyweight hardcast loads in both the .44Mag (330-355gr) and .45/70 (405-500gr) vastly outperform 12ga slugs and even the 220gr .30-06.
The best of the 12ga slugs, the big hardcast offerings from Terminator, penetrate about like a .44Spl Keith load. Which is no surprise, they have a comparable sectional density and velocity. Except the .44 won't beat the hell out of you in the process.
Deaf Smith
New member
Newfrontier,
Just as you use specialty slugs in your .500 not all 12 gauge slugs are equal.
The brenneke slugs do not expand or deform much at all. They are made that way. THEY ARE NOT 'FOSTER' SLUGS.
http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/file...okumente/BrennekeLawEnforcement_catalogue.pdf
Notice from the photos the brennek's don't deform like the other brands tested. Also notice the testimonial of a man who did stop a charging brown bear.
Newfrontier, your sectional density is only part of the story to penetration.
Momentum is also quite important.
And from the U.S. Forestry Service:
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152
Notice on short range penetration the .458 Winchester Magnum (rifle) gave 19 inches of penetration at 15 yards.
The 12 gauge, same range, using I guess a FOSTER slug (federal make) gave 15 inches of penetration. In fact it's penetration was quite good compared to all of the rifles tested and better than any handgun tested.
The best pistol they had was a .44 magnum but even with best loads it gave 14 inches and the .45 Colt load you talked about gave 13 inches (I bet the .44 magnum expand and that is why it was so low.)
No doubt your .500 would penetrate more.. but then so would the brenneke slugs since they a) weight more, b) won't deform as much, and c) are at a higher velocity.
So yea, I think the 12 gauge, with the right loads, will do better than a .500.
Deaf
newfrontier45
Moderator
That's the crappy old USFA testing I was talking about. Useless information. The .458 used a soft point. The fact that the swaged 255gr .45Colt load penetrated deeper than the 240gr .44Mag load clearly illustrates my point. That coupled with the fact that they scored bullets that expanded higher than those that did not also proves my point. A .458 does not need to expand to be effective. Outdated and useless.
I don't know where you've been but I've been talking about Brenneke's and Terminators all along.
Modern penetration testing with modern guns and loads by people who know what they're doing. Note that the Terminator slugs, which are the best money can buy, penetrated comparable to the .44 Keith load (~26").
http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5
I don't know where you've been but I've been talking about Brenneke's and Terminators all along.
You're right, I forgot to factor in wishful thinking. Forgive me if I do not lend any credibility to anything else you have to say.
Modern penetration testing with modern guns and loads by people who know what they're doing. Note that the Terminator slugs, which are the best money can buy, penetrated comparable to the .44 Keith load (~26").
http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5
Deaf Smith
New member
So you are saying a .458 510 gr. soft point won't penetrate a brown bears skull?
Deaf
Deaf
newfrontier45
Moderator
Are you saying you can hit a brown bear's brain while it's charging at you???
Head shots are about the pinnacle of bear thread wishful thinking.
Head shots are about the pinnacle of bear thread wishful thinking.
Deaf Smith
New member
With a charging bear, I.E. frontal shot, how you gonna hit a shoulder?
The head will be in front of it and not much shoulder will be showing.
You are certainly not going to aim off to one side so you can hit a shoulder.
http://sportsafield.com/content/grizzly-defense
And notice what a bear looks like from in front.
And tell me... are you saying a .458 510 soft point won't break a bears shoulder?
Deaf
The head will be in front of it and not much shoulder will be showing.
You are certainly not going to aim off to one side so you can hit a shoulder.
http://sportsafield.com/content/grizzly-defense
And notice what a bear looks like from in front.
And tell me... are you saying a .458 510 soft point won't break a bears shoulder?
Deaf
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Don’t need a S&W 500 or a shotgun, a 44 Mag snubby will do. When the bear is about 7 yards out, put a 240 gr hard cast flat point thru its nose, (the nose is a lot bigger than its eyes) and quickly step to the side. (À la matador) If the shot is slightly off, I do not fret, for the bear is nonetheless temporarily stunned by the blast, the fireball, and the bullet, so it’s a simple matter of emptying the gun (and busting up) its shoulders. Done like dinner.
Accurate shooting skills mandatory, and … tener cojones.
Accurate shooting skills mandatory, and … tener cojones.
wyobohunter
New member
I never learn. Lots of passion surrounding this tired old topic and I let myself get sucked in... Again.
I bet not one poster in this thread has ever had to put a bear down, at least not a charging Brown Bear (myself included).
Closest I ever came was holding my 45-70 on one as the boat drifted toward him/her.
Lets be honest, none of us are experts. Though I'm incline to agree that sectional density is only second to shot placement.
Finally, I have known more than one person who was actually charged, they don't typically look like the pic Deaf Smith posted. From my second hand anecdotal information, head is usually lowered and ears back.
I'm also out.
I bet not one poster in this thread has ever had to put a bear down, at least not a charging Brown Bear (myself included).
Closest I ever came was holding my 45-70 on one as the boat drifted toward him/her.
Lets be honest, none of us are experts. Though I'm incline to agree that sectional density is only second to shot placement.
Finally, I have known more than one person who was actually charged, they don't typically look like the pic Deaf Smith posted. From my second hand anecdotal information, head is usually lowered and ears back.
I'm also out.
Bears
When the bear is seven yards out....and moving at about 30 mph.....that bear will cover that 21 feet in less than one half second. Shoot and step to the side?
Where is that happening? Walking your dog in Soldotna?
I have never been charged by a bear. I have though fished in bear territory.
Walking through the woods between the highway and the Kenai, I had enough difficulty just moving myself in waders, carrying the rod and my bag through the muck and the brush - and that was on the trail. There was going to be no quick step aside. I would have been lucky to bring the gun to bear.
About penetration .....what is up with that? One fellow says the the big, heavy bullets for the 500 are poor penetrators and then others say that they will penetrate end to end. There does not seem to be a consensus.
Pete
A simple matter? As simple as that quick "step to the side"?
When the bear is seven yards out....and moving at about 30 mph.....that bear will cover that 21 feet in less than one half second. Shoot and step to the side?
Where is that happening? Walking your dog in Soldotna?
I have never been charged by a bear. I have though fished in bear territory.
Walking through the woods between the highway and the Kenai, I had enough difficulty just moving myself in waders, carrying the rod and my bag through the muck and the brush - and that was on the trail. There was going to be no quick step aside. I would have been lucky to bring the gun to bear.
About penetration .....what is up with that? One fellow says the the big, heavy bullets for the 500 are poor penetrators and then others say that they will penetrate end to end. There does not seem to be a consensus.
Pete
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Right. This is a tired old topic. I was just looking more for handgun suggestions but the .500 is likely out of the questions, and also what grains were considered acceptable in what gun brand. I think I'm highly leaning toward a .44 magnum and that should be fine for the unlikely chance this will ever be a problem anyway.
People here were starting to argue about what would be "best" and we could sit here all night and probably think of rounds that would almost certainly kill even a grizzly a bear deader than a door nail; the .375 H&H, certain .458 loads a .338 etc. etc. etc. but that's not the point for me. The point boils down to something I would want to carry that would probably work and that's also practical gun. The S&W 626 4 inch or the Alaskan Red Hawk .44 magnums seem VERY practical and realistic for this with a hard cast high grain bullet.
ON A SEPARATE SIDE NOTE AND SOMETHING SORT OF ENTERTAINING
I know someone who was almost killed by a bear. My fathers old business partner (a she) had a boy friend/significant other. They liked to go on exotic safari and hunting trips in other countries hunting dangerous and huge game. She owned a ranch here in Montana and there was a bear that can't mutilating and mauling her lamas and otherwise wrecking havoc on their property. (No I'm not kidding).
Finally one night her significant other was there and the animals were getting upset outside indicating there was a bear there. He grabbed the .458 they had and headed outside. All of a sudden while walking around the ranch/home the bear literally jumped out of the bushes about 10 feet in front of him teeth bared and ready to eat him alive.
Sure enough he shot the bear in the head with the .458 and the bear spun around in a circle once and fell over dead. He lived through this and when the bear was examined later this bear had all kinds of problems in including if I remember correctly broken teeth, glass lodged inside of him, and the bear was partially starved.
This bear was unusual but that's why it was killing things etc. there was something wrong with it.
People here were starting to argue about what would be "best" and we could sit here all night and probably think of rounds that would almost certainly kill even a grizzly a bear deader than a door nail; the .375 H&H, certain .458 loads a .338 etc. etc. etc. but that's not the point for me. The point boils down to something I would want to carry that would probably work and that's also practical gun. The S&W 626 4 inch or the Alaskan Red Hawk .44 magnums seem VERY practical and realistic for this with a hard cast high grain bullet.
ON A SEPARATE SIDE NOTE AND SOMETHING SORT OF ENTERTAINING
I know someone who was almost killed by a bear. My fathers old business partner (a she) had a boy friend/significant other. They liked to go on exotic safari and hunting trips in other countries hunting dangerous and huge game. She owned a ranch here in Montana and there was a bear that can't mutilating and mauling her lamas and otherwise wrecking havoc on their property. (No I'm not kidding).
Finally one night her significant other was there and the animals were getting upset outside indicating there was a bear there. He grabbed the .458 they had and headed outside. All of a sudden while walking around the ranch/home the bear literally jumped out of the bushes about 10 feet in front of him teeth bared and ready to eat him alive.
Sure enough he shot the bear in the head with the .458 and the bear spun around in a circle once and fell over dead. He lived through this and when the bear was examined later this bear had all kinds of problems in including if I remember correctly broken teeth, glass lodged inside of him, and the bear was partially starved.
This bear was unusual but that's why it was killing things etc. there was something wrong with it.
If you're limited to only 300-350 grains with the .50 why not go to a .44mag? A 340 grain .429 bullet will have better BC and SD than the same weight in the .50, giving the .44 the advantage, assuming you're comparing both bullets at the same velocity. You also have the perk of being able to use .44 special for plinking or reduced recoil and bullet availability should be better with the .44.
You can also fire a 630 grain .458 cal bullet from a 45-70 it will have considerably better SD than a 600 grain 12 GA slug and likely have more muzzle energy.
You can also fire a 630 grain .458 cal bullet from a 45-70 it will have considerably better SD than a 600 grain 12 GA slug and likely have more muzzle energy.
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“Shoot and step to the side?
Where is that happening? Walking your dog in Soldotna?” [darkgael]
Having a dog with you is an excellent point, a German shepherd is as good as a companion with a shotgun. Maybe better. I have seen big browns run from an attacking dog.
My preferred carry is a 44 Mag S&W 29 3” barrel. Have also carried 29s in 4” and 6.5” barrels. A shorter barrel gives better self defense rough and tumble options should I be surprise ambushed.
Best bang for the buck – Ruger Alaskan in 480 Ruger, for just a few grains more of H110 you can send a larger bullet, say 325gr, at about the same velocity as a 240gr 44 Mag.
I always carry a knife, a 69 yr old (Alaska) stopped a bear with a knife, ditto a 50-something yr old (Alberta?) not too long ago. Documented.
Don’t hunt anymore, just enjoy hiking.
That’s my 2 cents, I’m out.
Where is that happening? Walking your dog in Soldotna?” [darkgael]
Having a dog with you is an excellent point, a German shepherd is as good as a companion with a shotgun. Maybe better. I have seen big browns run from an attacking dog.
My preferred carry is a 44 Mag S&W 29 3” barrel. Have also carried 29s in 4” and 6.5” barrels. A shorter barrel gives better self defense rough and tumble options should I be surprise ambushed.
Best bang for the buck – Ruger Alaskan in 480 Ruger, for just a few grains more of H110 you can send a larger bullet, say 325gr, at about the same velocity as a 240gr 44 Mag.
I always carry a knife, a 69 yr old (Alaska) stopped a bear with a knife, ditto a 50-something yr old (Alberta?) not too long ago. Documented.
Don’t hunt anymore, just enjoy hiking.
That’s my 2 cents, I’m out.
Deaf Smith
New member
I am not arguing about what is 'best', only that a good cheap shotgun with Brenneke Black Magic will do the deed about as good as anything.
Like I've posted, I take my 629 but if I really was worried about bear I'd just ALSO take my Mossie 500 18 inch riot gun and those slugs.
Happily in Texas, where I'm at, about the worst you can run up against is a desperate black bear, cougar, gator, or hog. .44 will take care of them.
Deaf
Like I've posted, I take my 629 but if I really was worried about bear I'd just ALSO take my Mossie 500 18 inch riot gun and those slugs.
Happily in Texas, where I'm at, about the worst you can run up against is a desperate black bear, cougar, gator, or hog. .44 will take care of them.
Deaf
WildBill45
New member
Take from me, a retired cop, or ask any other cop, commission folks are politicians who buy whatever is cheapest, hence a shotgun, and usually don't know much about what they are buying in the first place. Don't go by commissions or Police Chiefs, ask a guide, native Alaskan who lives and dies in the villages by polar bears, etc...