Russia's Army Invades Georgia in Force: How should the US Government React??

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You remember how those reports played out, correct??
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So forget about the hundreds of other documented eyewitness accounts of Iraqi repression, human rights violations, and outright atrocities in Kuwait, just because one atrocity is alleged to be a fabrication?

http://www.indict.org.uk/crimedetails.php?crime=Kuwait
Around half a million Iraqi documents were captured by Coalition forces after the liberation of Kuwait and they serve to show the full extent of the repression. Among the documents can be found:

* orders to execute owners of houses bearing anti-Iraqi slogans.

* orders to kill on sight any civilian caught on the streets after curfew or anyone involved in any resistance activity.

* orders to use machine guns, grenade launchers and flame throwers against civilian demonstrators.1
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Having watched scenes of Iraqi official torture back in the 90's, the notion that panties on the head was "torture" is beyond laughable. Watch the linked videos, if you have the stomach for it and haven't eaten recently.

The refined sensibilities, restraint, and honor of the United States military is the exception, not the rule around the world as the Russian army is demonstrating via images of bombed-out Georgian apartment buildings.
 
That is what the Russian government has instructed their press to report. There is no independent press inside South Ossetia currently.

It is ironic how so many people will question things said by our own government, and then swallow whole things said by another government.

Remember that when Iraq invaded Kuwait, their troops ransacked the hospitals, disconnecting patients from life support equipment, in order to loot them. They even threw premature babies out of their incubators, in order to steal the incubators. A nurse from Kuwait even testified before Congress that she had witnessed these horrors.

You remember how those reports played out, correct??
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I don't know how to respond to that. It's "all over the place" and it's very difficult, or impossible, to argue against a statement like that because you think all the news is controlled and contrived. If that's how you feel - ok. I can't prove you're wrong, nor can I prove you're correct except for:

I got most of my info. from watching South Ossetians stating their villages had been attacked and many people killed by invading Georgian troops. (I didn't see any Russian soldiers hiding behind the refugees pointing a gun at their heads in order to make them state what they said. However, I can't prove they weren't there with their rifles pointing at the refugees heads. Geez, I feel silly even having to type this type of "disclaimer". I did edit my previous post though to let you know that I got info. from videos also.)

I'm old and slower now Lance and it's hard for me to follow arguments when people go off on tangents like you have done IMHO.
 
The refined sensibilities, restraint, and honor of the United States military is the exception, not the rule around the world as the Russian army is demonstrating via images of bombed-out Georgian apartment buildings.
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I would not go that far. In this matter American hands are far from clean. American military has done many terrible things in the past. During WWII America fire bombed cities in Japan and Germany regardless of their importance, causing hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. Lets not forget the Atomic bombing of Japan. At that time these were considered reasonable tactics. We also have supported ruthless dictators who killed thousands of their own people. Saddam ring a bell. On top of that their are numerous incidents during Vietnam. And now some during the War on Terror where we bombed civilian targets, or raided innocent peoples homes. One has to face the fact that no country has a spotless record in war crimes, accidental or deliberate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#Allied_powers_.28listed_by_country.29

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rozeff/rozeff66.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/medi-s15.shtml

Granted Russia is known to wage brutal wars, but in this case they seem to be quite restrained in this conflict compared to their actions in Chechnya were they leveled the city of Grozny. Yes, some bombs/rockets hit civilian targets, but we do not know if this was intentional or a tragic accident. On the whole the Russian military still uses outdated technology. All the bombs they drop are dumb. So some errant misses will happen. Compare this to Georgia which deliberately attacked civilian targets with unguided munitions.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/08/georgi19575.htm
 
Here is a very accurate analysis of the situation in Georgia. Russia has come out the true winner in the conflict by being able to read the west weakness and Georgia's bluff. Russia sits in the catbird seat over the west. So the West's influence in the world declines while Russia's is increasing.

he Russian military, having now secured complete control over the autonomous territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, appears increasingly engaged in an assault on Georgia proper. Distinguished commentators and Western governments alike have demanded action and called for transatlantic unity in the face of the Russian assault.

But it's unclear what transatlantic unity implies. Does it mean deployment of NATO troops to Tbilisi? A bold and creative move, perhaps, but unlikely, given western Europe's gun-shy nature. Does anyone seriously want to contemplate a scenario in which the United States and Russia are engaged in combat against each other? Economic sanctions against Russia probably won't happen, given Russia's stranglehold on western Europe through natural-gas deliveries.

The truth is, Russia has called the West's bluff on Georgia and won. It is the advantage of the first move in a situation whose underlying geopolitical realities are starkly different from the diplomatic pretense that often governs media headlines.
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Rest of article
http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/the-advantage-of-the-first-mov.php
 
Hold on just a minute ...

... there.
"Russia sits in the catbird seat over the west. So the West's influence in the world declines while Russia's is increasing."
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Just because your a cheerleader doesn't necessarily make your fantasies true.

The only place Russia's influence is increasing is in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, two very small backwoods tribal territories. That's it.

The case could actually be made that Russia's influence in the world is declining since their tarted and trumped up incursion into another country. In fact, countries such as Poland and the Ukraine to name just two of many, see what's happening in Georgia and are more than ever committed to "Western Influence" and not the "Beast From the East".

All the other previous Soviets are now succinctly reminded of just exactly what the cost is for doing business under the paw of Sir KGB Putin and friends.
 
Just because your a cheerleader doesn't necessarily make your fantasies true.
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Did you even read the article? If you have not I ask that you do before you make personal attacks. After you read it think about it for awhile and let it sink in. Then comment.

The case could actually be made that Russia's influence in the world is declining since their tarted and trumped up incursion into another country. In fact, countries such as Poland and the Ukraine to name just two of many, see what's happening in Georgia and are more than ever committed to "Western Influence" and not the "Beast From the East".
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Also do you have any verifiable evidence to prove your argument?
 
Ummmm.....American atrocities??? American's have dirty hands? Umm....this behavior is not authorized U.S. military doctrine as it is of our enemies and it is a very, very rare occurance when it does occur and punished accordingly via the UCMJ.

Whomever we've fire-bombed or cities we've carpet bombed or vaporized with atomic bombs in the past, THEY DESERVED IT!!!!!!!!! THEY started it. We reacted with overwhelming force as was and is expected. Imagine life if we had not decided to win.......(m*r*n).

Don't want to see people getting hurt? Fly to the offending countries and convince them not to attack us and this all will be avoided in the future....is Obama frequenting this forum?

I cannot comprehend the comparison being made of our rare occurances of misjudgement by those very few American offenders, with behavior expected from other country's troops by their commanders, unless you just don't like or appreciate your country.

We really need a house cleaning in this country, all those that don't like America please drive to the left coast and wait for further instructions.
 
Why yes I did ...

Read your cited article before I commented.
Did you even read the article?
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That didn't change anything.

Russian influence was at an all time low before Putin flexed his pectorals and over the last few days has actually sunk lower. Go figure?

Sources? Not going to play your game. I gave you my "educated" opinion.

Now, don't disappoint us by picking up on the word "educated". I intentionally used it.
 
THEY DESERVED IT!!!!!!!!! THEY started it.
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Funny that is the same thing the Soviets said when they invaded Germany to reek revenge on the Germans for their atrocities in Russia I guess in your reality, an eye for eye is justifiable. The old excuse despots, and murders have used for thousands of years to justify their barbarous behavior. I suggest you leave the US and head to North Korea, or maybe Iran were that mentality prevails. Thankfully the civilized world would like to get beyond that mentality.

We really need a house cleaning in this country, all those that don't like America please drive to the left coast and wait for further instructions.
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Do I detect sour grapes. Now you are sounding like a true Ultra Nationalist as good as any in NAZI Germany and Soviet Union. Your feelings are duly noted.
 
Russian influence was at an all time low before Putin flexed his pectorals and over the last few days has actually sunk lower. Go figure?
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Any sources? Nothing to back up your claims. Well then there is nothing else to discuss here.

I do agree Putin influence was low before the conflict, it is even stated in the article but now he has flexed his muscles and the world flinched.
 
The case could actually be made that Russia's influence in the world is declining since their tarted and trumped up incursion into another country. In fact, countries such as Poland and the Ukraine to name just two of many, see what's happening in Georgia and are more than ever committed to "Western Influence" and not the "Beast From the East".
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Also do you have any verifiable evidence to prove your argument?
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AP via MSNBC

The U.N. and NATO called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, while Poland's president and the leaders of four former Soviet republics flew to Georgia for a meeting of solidarity with Saakashvili.

"The Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," said Poland's Lech Kaczynski, who was being joined by counterparts from Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Latvia.
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ForwardAssist ...

... Why beat yourself up?
Any sources?
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What about opinion do you not understand? By the way, many of your sources are slanted eastern newswire propaganda rags, socialist apologist websites, and socialist bloggers. Hardly reliable unbiased sources of record.
Nothing to back up your claims. Well then there is nothing else to discuss here.
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Gee, taking your ball and going home? Hurt feelings? I was just setting the table for a spirited discussion of all the Socialist propaganda crap you've been throwing around the last couple of days.
"I do agree Putin influence was low before the conflict"
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Why thank you for the point.
"now he has flexed his muscles and the world flinched."
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Flinched ... Flinched, I didn't see any flinch by anyone except Putin and his Lackey. Seems to me, everyone except His Majesty King Putin didn't flinch. Putin was played like the cheap tool he is. Georgia is a tripwire and Putin fell for it and showed the Big Bad Bear's Paw to the world. It was an object lesson of supreme statesmanship by America (Bush) to expose the Bear's backside to the world, especially to the former Soviet Satellites.

Your darling Putin stepped right up to the plate and hit a home-run for the West. It is perfect in it's simplicity.

Sometimes, you'll find there is a real world beyond your nose.
 
Sigh...:( Well I thought I had an intelligent person to debate. Judging from your last post I guess not. It is a complete waste of my time to even bother to get into a debate with you, since all my evidence in your book comes from "slanted eastern newswire propaganda rags, socialist apologist websites, and socialist bloggers. Hardly reliable unbiased sources of record.." So no matter what I show you will have an excuse to dismiss it. At least I showed some evidence but I guess some don't want to bother reading it or even trying to understand it. You already closed your mind. Which in itself tells a lot about you. Since you have NO evidence to support your POV nor are you making any intelligent remarks, then there is nothing for me to discuss here. Well except your "educated" opinions. Which don't account for much.

ee, taking your ball and going home? Hurt feelings? I was just setting the table for a spirited discussion of all the Socialist propaganda crap you've been throwing around the last couple of days.
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Once again proving my point. Sour gapes anyone.

Sometimes, you'll find there is a real world beyond your nose.
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I would assume the irony is lost on you.

Thanks for your time. If you want to have an intelligent debate next time why don't you come up with some intelligent comments and drop all the personal attacks. They are unbecoming.


Flinched ... Flinched, I didn't see any flinch by anyone except Putin and his Lackey. Seems to me, everyone except His Majesty King Putin didn't flinch. Putin was played like the cheap tool he is. Georgia is a tripwire and Putin fell for it and showed the Big Bad Bear's Paw to the world. It was an object lesson of supreme statesmanship by America (Bush) to expose the Bear's backside to the world, especially to the former Soviet Satellites.
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Open your eyes. Contrary to what you may say and the right wing cool aide you drink, the new reports, showed a different POV. Oh that's right anything that you disagree with is "communist, socialist propganda"... right? Anyway, the creditable news reports clearly show that the Russians continued on their campaign until they were finished. No amount of crying from the West had impact on Putin to stop the conflict. He knew full well the West could do nothing to stop him, well except make a lot of wining noise. Which after awhile would become a bit annoying.
 
I don't see the comparisons between what Russia is doing and what we are doing (Iraq and Afghanistan). I don't believe anybody commandeered and flew several jets loaded with hundreds of innocent people into buildings containing thousands of innocent people, all non-military.
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I'm still trying to figure out how people can still make a connection between 9/11 and Iraq. :rolleyes:

I guess if you repeat a lie often enough.......:barf:
 
Once again ...

... I reviewed many of your cited sources before my earlier comments, so just for the record, here are four or five of your recent cites that you used to support your suppositions:

LewRockwell. com

Human Rights Watch

World Socialist Website

Atlantic Website

War Crimes, Wikipedia

None of these are what you would call "sources of record" are they? Each is based on opinion and editorial and are not exactly sterling sources.

You know "beyond the end of your nose" was a touch over the top I'll give you that. Maybe I should have used "short sighted" as in a singular point of view.

Oh and before I forget it, I never used "communist" in any of my writings. You guys just always love to put words in that aren't there. Sorry you decided to dismiss me and play the "Called me a name card" which I didn't, and all the hurt feelings on your part.

I guess "pinning the tale on the donkey" hits a little to close for comfort.
 
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