I don't want to sound skeptical, but let's see a video, maybe the reason you haven't found any is that you can't run full speed and hit 2 bullseyes a second? I'd really love to believe it, but I don't, and I'm sure not too many others do, either...but I'll see it and change my mind
Running and gunning/Shooting on the move - Why not?
- Thread starter shaofutzer
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I watched Gabe Suarez do it on one of his videos. I've practiced it some and believe it's effective. It's not running, but fast walking, and it's close range. Not a normal fighting technique, but one that would allow you to "get out of the hole".
Moving from your right to left is strictly one handed, of course, and two handed left to right. It's not running, but fast walking. At seven yds. it's effective fire, while one shoots his way to cover.
Guess if you wanted to see how effective it can be, you'd need Gabes' video--or practice it yourself. Since I shoot on public land, there aren't safety issues where others are concerned. Seven yds. is as close as I can safely shoot Evil Roy steel targets. After a little practice, the rds. started going right in there.
Moving from your right to left is strictly one handed, of course, and two handed left to right. It's not running, but fast walking. At seven yds. it's effective fire, while one shoots his way to cover.
Guess if you wanted to see how effective it can be, you'd need Gabes' video--or practice it yourself. Since I shoot on public land, there aren't safety issues where others are concerned. Seven yds. is as close as I can safely shoot Evil Roy steel targets. After a little practice, the rds. started going right in there.
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Well, yes and no.
What Gabe and his instructors do in real life, on the range, is lot's faster than what is shown on the DVD's. No, it isn't a precision technique. It's designed to 'zipper' someone with large amounts of lead while 'getting off the x' (GOTX). We're not trying for one-hole groups with this.
GOTX is a mainstay of SI teaching, and it would be prudent for anyone to get quickly and dynamically out of the line of fire if there is an opening available. Call it a default reaction, but there is really a lot more to it than that.
You can probably tell that alot of us are somewhat sceptical about your claims, but hoping you will come up with a video to show us the shooting skills you claim. Then you should set up a business and start training everyone else!
Besides the likelihood of shooting yourself in this scenario, there is also the question of what is happening to the (in your case, apparently very rare) bullets which are not hitting the target? I am a pretty good competitive shooter, and I notice my accuracy goes wayyyyy down when I start to move at any rate faster than a walk. So where are those misses going...into someone else's house, into someone else's car, into someone else? By far the better tactical choice in my judgment is to try to make the opponent move fast. From the perspective purely of accuracy, I find it much easier to hit a moving target while I am relatively still, then hit a standing target when I am moving fast.
Besides the likelihood of shooting yourself in this scenario, there is also the question of what is happening to the (in your case, apparently very rare) bullets which are not hitting the target? I am a pretty good competitive shooter, and I notice my accuracy goes wayyyyy down when I start to move at any rate faster than a walk. So where are those misses going...into someone else's house, into someone else's car, into someone else? By far the better tactical choice in my judgment is to try to make the opponent move fast. From the perspective purely of accuracy, I find it much easier to hit a moving target while I am relatively still, then hit a standing target when I am moving fast.
spacecoast
New member
At my last training class we practiced shooting while on the move (brisk walking pace) both side to side and backward/forward. A realistic SD scenario is probably not going to have you nailed to one spot, you very well might have to shoot while moving toward cover or to defeat the other guy's cover, so it's a good thing to practice.
AcridSaint
New member
Shooting on the move is not the same as running full-tilt though. Any decent instruction will eventually go into moving and shooting. I've even done the running full-speed with gun at ready bit, but running full-speed and shooting is asking to get hurt or sued. If you need to run full-speed you should be getting to cover and shooting or be working in a team.
Who here has seen or practiced the Australian Peel? The idea is shoot and then move and let your buddies prov. I still like to stick to the three things poorly mantra. If you are running at full speed in unknown terrain while being assaulted, you do not want to have to worry about trigger and muzzle control at the same time, let alone taking aim. If you have a need to run, run to cover and/or concealment and then assess/fight.
Who here has seen or practiced the Australian Peel? The idea is shoot and then move and let your buddies prov. I still like to stick to the three things poorly mantra. If you are running at full speed in unknown terrain while being assaulted, you do not want to have to worry about trigger and muzzle control at the same time, let alone taking aim. If you have a need to run, run to cover and/or concealment and then assess/fight.
I don't really understand the teaching of 'forward/backward'? You are still in the BG's line of fire, so what is the point? Is it just a range safety thing?
In the SI classes I've taken, we moved to the rest of the clock face, but not 12:00 or 6:00. 11:00 and 1:00 seem to work very well if terrain allows such.
AcridSaint
New member
Sometimes you don't have a lateral move available to you. Sometimes you're moving forward or backward and then you have to shoot.
We move front/back laterally and then usually on some sort of chevron or U course to fire from all angles. You may have to hold the gun differently depending on what moving position you're firing from.
We move front/back laterally and then usually on some sort of chevron or U course to fire from all angles. You may have to hold the gun differently depending on what moving position you're firing from.
I can't read or hear about shooting on the run without thinking of a story about shooting on the run.
A couple officers were sent to get a bull moose out of someone's yard. It was tearing the heck out of everything in sight.
When the officers got there (it was night) one started walking around looking for the moose. It comes out of no where chasing the officer. While at a dead run for the fence he throws a shot over his shoulder and to everyone's supprise the moose goes down.
Thinking he was a hot shot shooter, he goes to the moose, puts his foot on his neck and holds the gun up and blows smoke out of the muzzle like some old time western shooter.
Only to discover his shot hit the horns stunning but not killing the moose. While his foot is still on the moose' neck, he comes to and comes up. MAD.
Our officer set a world sprinting record and high jump record clearing the fence. Would have made any Olympic Track star proud.
A couple officers were sent to get a bull moose out of someone's yard. It was tearing the heck out of everything in sight.
When the officers got there (it was night) one started walking around looking for the moose. It comes out of no where chasing the officer. While at a dead run for the fence he throws a shot over his shoulder and to everyone's supprise the moose goes down.
Thinking he was a hot shot shooter, he goes to the moose, puts his foot on his neck and holds the gun up and blows smoke out of the muzzle like some old time western shooter.
Only to discover his shot hit the horns stunning but not killing the moose. While his foot is still on the moose' neck, he comes to and comes up. MAD.
Our officer set a world sprinting record and high jump record clearing the fence. Would have made any Olympic Track star proud.
spacecoast
New member
The closest available cover may be in front of you or behind you and you might want to keep the BG's head down while you are moving to that cover, especially if a loved one is crouched behind you, using you as cover. Granted, this is probably an unlikely scenario that only happens very rarely to the average person, but it's still useful to practice.
OK, whatever.
I'm still not buying into it
Assuming a hallway or some such enclosed space, I would rather squat, kneel, or blade myself against the wall than move forward or backward. Whatever it takes to get off the line of fire.
Most of these events are going to be very short duration, and seeking cover more than likely won't be an option. Not getting shot takes priority (for me) over seeking some cover.
Interesting post...
Shaofutzer, that's an interesting story. I won't deny your claim - you may well do this - but I would like to see you do it.
I think you may have hit a nerve with your statement
Most 'controlled' ranges won't allow it - takes up too much space and the possibility of some form of injury leading to a lawsuit - and therefore most folks can't even attempt it at slow speed. Even in most 'practical' shooting, movement is done between shots, not while shooting. It is 'just not done'. And, like shoulder holsters and uncovered trigger guards, when one or two 'authorities' pontificate against that protocol, all true believers accept it Holy Writ.
Still, the concept is not new. The Mexican Defense Course (the real one, not the SWPL adaptation) required six shots while walking forward. I cannot explain the rational, but it has been part of the course since prior to the 1970s. The old South-West Pistol League (SWPL) incorporated a 'lateral' movement (right to left or left to right) into some of their courses. Usually this is performed at a slow rate of speed, with emphasis on not injuring one's self or any of the range officials or onlookers. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) uses some lateral or downrange movement in 'practical exercises', but a range officer is always close enough to 'control' a shooter - especially when moving backwards.
Shaofutzer, I wish you the best in this. Do NOT allow anyone to rain on your particular parade. DO, however, be as careful as you can. Falling and cranking off a round while falling or bouncing as a result of a fall is not best practice in any event. You probably knew that already.
If I can find a place to try it - safely - I may experiment with it as well. However, my knees are bad these days and I don't jog at all any more... I probably won't do any serious running, either.
Shaofutzer, that's an interesting story. I won't deny your claim - you may well do this - but I would like to see you do it.
I think you may have hit a nerve with your statement
I've a feeling many folks are in denial someone else can do something they can't do and/or have been conditioned to believe cannot be done.
Most 'controlled' ranges won't allow it - takes up too much space and the possibility of some form of injury leading to a lawsuit - and therefore most folks can't even attempt it at slow speed. Even in most 'practical' shooting, movement is done between shots, not while shooting. It is 'just not done'. And, like shoulder holsters and uncovered trigger guards, when one or two 'authorities' pontificate against that protocol, all true believers accept it Holy Writ.
Still, the concept is not new. The Mexican Defense Course (the real one, not the SWPL adaptation) required six shots while walking forward. I cannot explain the rational, but it has been part of the course since prior to the 1970s. The old South-West Pistol League (SWPL) incorporated a 'lateral' movement (right to left or left to right) into some of their courses. Usually this is performed at a slow rate of speed, with emphasis on not injuring one's self or any of the range officials or onlookers. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) uses some lateral or downrange movement in 'practical exercises', but a range officer is always close enough to 'control' a shooter - especially when moving backwards.
Shaofutzer, I wish you the best in this. Do NOT allow anyone to rain on your particular parade. DO, however, be as careful as you can. Falling and cranking off a round while falling or bouncing as a result of a fall is not best practice in any event. You probably knew that already.
If I can find a place to try it - safely - I may experiment with it as well. However, my knees are bad these days and I don't jog at all any more... I probably won't do any serious running, either.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Why not?
Shoot in self defense, miss and hit an innocent, you may get indicted and you will get sued, and probably lose.
Run around while shooting and hit an innocent...you WILL get indicted, you WILL be sued.
Sincerely
WildcoverandcowerAlaska ™©2002-2010
Shoot in self defense, miss and hit an innocent, you may get indicted and you will get sued, and probably lose.
Run around while shooting and hit an innocent...you WILL get indicted, you WILL be sued.
Sincerely
WildcoverandcowerAlaska ™©2002-2010
TeamSinglestack
New member
Moving straight forward and backward are simply basic drills that build on further skills.
Crawl, walk, run....
Develop skill and technique with static drills, than with dynamic drills. Start with basics, and than progress. It all depends on the resources available, the shooters, and how thorough the trainer wants/needs to be to develop proficiency.
The ability to shoot on the move can be developed just like shooting from a static position, and a good progressive training program will teach the shooter HOW fast they can move and still accurately shoot at any given range. A good trainer encourages shooters to move faster when they can, and move slower when they should.
For civilians in a defensive situation, moving forward while shooting probably isn't the recommended course of action. For military/LEO, it might be required in certain situations. "Move forward and shoot them into the ground" is taught in certain circles, as it does have applicability.
AcridSaint
New member
Isn't "when would I ever need -that-?" the same excuse folks give us when they say there's no reason to carry a gun.
It's not so much "when would I ever need -that-?"
More like "What is it for?"
Gabe Suarez has a video on YouTube called "In Quartata in Close Quarters". These techniques look a lot more effective in close quarters than moving forward or backward.
Matter of fact, they work very well in FoF drills. Whereas if I stay in line with the shooter, I get hit - every time.
More like "What is it for?"
Gabe Suarez has a video on YouTube called "In Quartata in Close Quarters". These techniques look a lot more effective in close quarters than moving forward or backward.
Matter of fact, they work very well in FoF drills. Whereas if I stay in line with the shooter, I get hit - every time.
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AcridSaint
New member
The what is it for was covered. You don't have to practice it if you don't buy into it, but there have been several good reasons posted to do so.
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