Rules of engagement and shooting distance

We all train within certain limitations. It may be cost of ammo (using range fodder vs. our +P carry loads), range limitations such as a square range, limited firing speed, no use of holsters, etc.) and we face limitations on our ability to become "masters of the art" because most of us have day jobs, relationships, kids to raise and so on.

But good practice where your marksmanship, tactics and procedures are sound gives you a leg up on surviving a gunfight.

Practicing at 25 yards or 50 yards probably isn't necessary for the bulk of your defensive work, but it should be at least part of a regular "work out" at the range.

The notion that 25 yards is "too far away" for us to practice shots at that distance is patently false. If your life or someone else's life is in danger, the only question will be how will you save a life?

If someone is shooting at others and you're 30 yards away from the shooter with no cover to approach, how will you engage with any confidence? Chances are, you won't.

Certainly someone making threats or brandishing blunt force weapons 25 yards away isn't an immediate threat - to you. But what if his threat is to your spouse trying to get into the car? Or your child?

Most of us train on static targets while real-life targets move, stop, turn and move again. When was the last time your handgun practice included targets that move?

We all have our myopic tendencies. Some study says 7 yards, another says 15 yards. Some say to practice near-contact distance skills while other say practice move & shoot. In general we practice for what we expect and what we expect is often driven by studies and reports describing the "average" of numerous events.

The two problems with this approach are that many of those statistics include police shootings which are different in nature than civilian shootings. Second, your actual gunfight will be nothing like you expected or trained for.

Whatever distance you've trained at will not be the distance of your gunfight. For that reason alone, we should be flexible and practice at many various distances, include 25 and 50 yards. Otherwise, we're like a military planning to fight the last war again instead of adapting to new conditions.
 
Compare that to a Les Baer which costs 4X as much and has a reputation for being unreliable. Which is more appropriate for self defense and home defense?
News to the world, I guess.

Your skills for sight alignment, breathing and trigger control will be enhanced if you choose to shoot at 25 yards. Shooting is shooting and enhancing skills is the name of the game. With the logic being touted here taken to extremes, the avg guy here will NEVER use his firearm so why spend the money and time?

This is a martial art and as such one should be proud to master himself and his weapon. If it's approached as a hobby do what you feel; many hobbyists are phenomenal at what they can do. It just won't matter much from a self-defense perspective.
 
One of the rooms I'm finishing in the basement of my new house will be 25 yards long. Big rec room with pool table, bar and entertainment system. So 25 yards can happen. When I shoot my bow I usually practice at least 40 yards if not 50 or 60 that way the close shots will be easy. Plus I know I can shoot that far if need be. Same with pistols, if all my shots we're from 7 yards I'd be screwed if I had to shoot the 25 yard shot.
 
So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to
self defense and home defense.


So can we conclude the original conjecture was somewhat overstated and probably just a touch trolling? :)
 
So can we conclude the original conjecture was somewhat overstated and probably just a touch trolling?

Based on prior posts from the OP, the answer would be yes. Unless the OP can actually make an argument that backs his claim ruling out training beyond 25 yards, that is...
 
So can we conclude the original conjecture was somewhat overstated and probably just a touch trolling?
Certainly it falls into the argumentative column. ;) Overstated, definitely.

At the risk of hijacking the intent of the thread, the OP's comment about spending 4x as much on a super-accurate 25 yard gun versus an average-accuracy 25 yard gun has a little merit.

If your expensive accurate gun shoots 3/4" groups at 25 yards versus a typical factory model shooting 2" at 25 yards, all other things being equal, I'd suggest buying the less expensive gun and using the difference towards range fees and practice too.

For instance, with a target like this...
SW39_01172006.jpg


Why should I spend over $1200 for super-accurate 9mm when my $400 9mm is capable of this kind of grouping with plain WWB ammo?
Note: it's even better with premium ammo :cool:
 
25 + yards

Seen it.
Location: Hotel parking lot.
Robber demanded and recieved wallet.
Robber ran while victim drew weapon.
Robber stopped.
Robber turned to engage.
Robber died.

Any distance you can be "shot at" you can be shot.
If you can be shot you have a reason for self defense.
 
I hope the next Salt Lake City or Omaha, NE mall shooter reads this thread. That way they'll know they aren't allowed to use a long gun or engage anyone at a distance of more than 7 meters...since, you know, that's the average police shooting distance.

"Oh, but at that distance, you should be trying to escape." Yeah, I guess you could do that. Or you could sack up and kill the guy before he guns down the soccer mom with 3 kids who really would prefer that she stay alive.
 
public gatherings

The time you might need longer distance accuracy is in a public gathering. If I am in church and somebody comes for a shooting spree, I am going to shoot from some distance, and I will need to be accurate. Likewise at a fair or a theater or a mall or some other such place where a BG wants to take 30 people out with him. That is why in addition to quick draw and close practice I also take the 25 yard practice sometimes.
 
Discussions of mall shootings made me think of my local mall. It's the typical two-story affair with multiple openings where one can look down onto the lower level. It also has the food court located on the second level, surrounding one side of the central atrium.

Shooters on the second level have clear fields of fire for far greater than 25 yards in many areas. In some, you are looking at a danger zone that extends for 50 yards, with minimal cover. The term "fish in a barrel" comes to mind. I'd really like to be able to return fire in that situation.

It's really not that hard to find instances in our every day life when a 25 yard (or greater) shot is necessary, appropriate, and legally defensible.
 
one thing i think everyone is overlooking...

what if the threat is a very tiny person?

if they happen to be half the size of your average individual..then wouldnt 10+ yards become more like 20+?
 
one thing i think everyone is overlooking...

what if the threat is a very tiny person?

if they happen to be half the size of your average individual..then wouldnt 10+ yards become more like 20+?

"Shoot low, boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies."
 
I carry the biggest most accurate gun I can fit IWB...that I like to shoot at the range, that is reliable, and that I feel comfortable affording. Don't see a need to carry a $3k pistol...but that would be cool too. But I'd also rather wear a Rolex than a Tag. It's called marketing. Thank God for a free market. Thank God we live in a country that we have such dilemas.

I vote for freedom.
 
The average human can run 10 m/h. If you can draw, aim and fire in 2 seconds, the BG must be at least 28 feet away (2 car lengths) for you to execute the maneuver.

So, long range practice is a good thing.
 
I'm a vocal advocate of wringing all the precision you can get, without sacrificing reliability, from your defensive/duty piece; but that 'charging suspect' gets into speed-rock distance pretty fast. It is a good example of why you need both skillsets, and the ability to decide which is applicable upon first recognition of the threat.
 
Close & Personal vs. Far and Impersonal...

Just because you're good at tennis doesn't mean you'll win the ping pong match. Just because you're a ping pong champion doesn't mean you're ready for the big tennis game. Different rules and Different Tactics. Some folks do silly things like train with mouseguns for 25yds. and 1911's for 3ft.away.
You don't bring a Ping Pong Paddle to a Tennis Court, and you don't bring a
Tennis Racquet to a Ping Pong Table.:D
 
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