Rules of engagement and shooting distance

It seems to me that some folks put the cart before the horse. Maybe they have a reason for this. I picked my personal defense handgun and I practice at 25 yards. I did not pick the handgun in order to practice at 25 yards, I picked it based upon its size, reliability, caliber and sights. It shoots very nicely at 25 yards, but is no 'Bullseye' handgun.

What is your trip concerning what other folks do ?
 
I just drilled 250 rounds at 25 meters for several reasons, one, when I shoot the 7, 10, 15 meter targets my groups have gotten much tighter. Next, in my area i may have to nail critter with no legs at that range before it gets my grand kids or even dog. The farther i am from jake no legs the better I like it.
 
I am pretty sure Tom Given's relays a story of one of his students winning a in gunfight and the distance was about 25 yards.

It's a good idea to practice accuracy at that distance.
 
"So, isn't accuracy at 25 yards pretty much moot with regards to self defense and home defense? :
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No, not necessarily.

If you limit "self-defense" strictly to yourself and those within your immediate vicinity (a few steps), the probably.

Where 25 yard shots might be necessary;
- "Defense of another": Where the other person being victimized is on the far side of a barrier you can't climb over - e.g. a chain link fence.

- Where a person outside your home (or another person's home) is preparing to use a Molotov cocktail and it's not even 5pm yet.

- The obvious: You are under fire from someone 25 yards away.
 
In police academy they taught us that most shootings occur between three to five yards with two to three shots fired total. At that distance reliable is more important than accurate.
 
If you limit "self-defense" strictly to yourself and those within your immediate vicinity (a few steps), the probably.

Where 25 yard shots might be necessary;
- "Defense of another": Where the other person being victimized is on the far side of a barrier you can't climb over - e.g. a chain link fence.

- Where a person outside your home (or another person's home) is preparing to use a Molotov cocktail and it's not even 5pm yet.

- The obvious: You are under fire from someone 25 yards away.
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exactly.

for the first example i would say no barrier would even be necessarry other than space and the lack of time to close it.


if you're ever in position to need to fire at 25 yards or more you can just yell statistics at the threat.:rolleyes:

if we're simply playing the odds,where do you draw the line?odds are you wont need your weapon for self-defense anyway.

maybe being fired on from 100 yards out,by some meth head with a shotgun,who thought i was snooping arround his "lab",has skewed my view of things.i was in the middle of a field with no cover in sight,wearing a full leg brace from a injured knee,and i thought the trailer he came from was abandoned(sure looked it).i dont even know if he was trying to hit me,or just scare me off.but he was hitting close enough for dirt that got kicked up to hit me at one point.

i would have attempted a shot if i had been carrying at the time(it was actually the event which caused me to never go without since).if nothing else it may have had a negative effect on his accuracy and/or his interest.

...ntm i have 2 bad knees and out running anyone is unlikely.

yes...the odds say closer is much more likely,but 25 yards isnt that far at all.it is indeed very possible for someone to present a threat from that range or even much further.

i know the stats didnt make me feel any better at the time.

"just relax,this shouldnt be happening"

i see no down side in being as effective as possible with your chosen weapon.
 
new wife shows up in the marriage with a little taurus snubby in 38. she had never shot it.

ive got her working on drills with the pistol practically touching the paper.
we do one target and two target drills.
draw and two for first, two for second with one left while she is backing away.

one target draw and four then back away with one left in the gun.

im no defence expert of course and this is the best i could think up for her with this little pistol. with five rounds of 38 special my thinking is pretty much two targets max with one round reserve.

whenever we get back to texas we absolutely have to get her something else.

she is responding well to the ar i bought her but so far it is just bench paper punching.

today(its just dawn now) ive decided its time for her to start some simple multiple target stuff with the ar.

25 yards is a long long shot with a pistol. i normally practice at 7 or so with the 25 kept to a minimum(45 ammo aint cheap)

i try to make every shot a good shot, close or far. as time passes im gettin quicker with the 45.(its a para p13)
 
I do a lot of shooting at 25 plus yards. What we seem to be leaving out is the confidence factor. Shooting my 642 had really increased my conidence in that little pistol, as my confidence goes up my close range shooting gets better.

I have another problem here. I live out in the country. I have critters, coyotes, foxes and domestic dogs trying to get my chickens. Yeah I like to keep a rifle loaded and handy but its not always the case. I might (and have) had to use a pistol to discourage critters from eatin my chickens at 25 yards or more.

I need the confidence that practicing at 25 + yards even for my little 642. I also carry my Model 28 Smith in my truck wanting to pop every coyote I see. I like the ideal of being able to shoot a revolver at longer ranges.
 
tell me how you plan to justify shooting a person at 25 yards and calling that defense.

the percentage of times in which that improbable scenario would occure is so miniscule as to not even register.

Anyone who engages a target at 25 yards with a handgun is going to be held liable for those misses.
In a static course of fire with calm nerves very few shooters can engage a charlie size target w/ scoreable accurace.
You think thats going to improve in an actual shoot-out?
so while you blasting away at a perp 25 yards away whos getting hit with your misses?
#1 improbable
#2 irresponsible
 
There are work environments with building spaces and hallways that easily reach 25 yards or longer. My office opens to such a space.

It is conceivable that one could enter a conflict in such a work space. Of course, one might try to seek cover and avoid, but I can easily see having to engage in such a large space.

Thus the initial conjecture might be relevant in home but not at some work places.

There was an AF military police officer who stopped a rampage shooter with a shot at 75 yards using an M9. Unlikely perhaps but not outside the range. Training just for the mean ignores the chance of the extreme situation. You should be able to get around in a person sized target at some distance. The mean isn't what always happens.
 
tell me how you plan to justify shooting a person at 25 yards and calling that defense.
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multiple legitimate examples have already been given.i just gave a first hand account of where i feel i would have been justified taking a shot at 100 yards(although it would have been more for psychological affect than anything).

or how about when i take my wifes ankle biter out in the middle of the night...

i see an armed man breaking into my grandparents house about 50 yards away.you think im going to sneek up over half that distance before calling them out(or hope im a better shot and keep as much distance as possible).?...or what if im spotted half way?

something like could never happen.:rolleyes:

dont tell me to go back inside,call the police,and wait for 30 minutes to an hour either.

the percentage of times in which that improbable scenario would occure is so miniscule as to not even register.
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again...if you're ever in position to need to fire at 25 yards or more you can just yell statistics at the threat.

In a static course of fire with calm nerves very few shooters can engage a charlie size target w/ scoreable accurace.
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i guess i'll take that as a compliment.

another reason why my carry gun is a full size M&P-9.not a J-frame or some subcompact...i can put shots in a 6" target all day at 25 yards.

i must live in a world where 25 yards is measured differently from some of you.ive seen people hit with thrown bricks at 20+ yards,yet somehow its a great abyss in some of your minds.you let some statistics override common sense and the obvious fact that a legitimate threat can be presented from ranges outside of contact distance.

it may be unlikely to engange a threat at that range,but im having a hard time understand the problem with being capable of doing so if needed.

i just read a story about an officer in CA who stopped a shooter at 100~ yards with his sidearm...wonder if he thought he'd ever need to do such an incredible thing.yes im well aware there's a difference between LEO and CC...but the point stands.how likely was it for him to need to make that shot with his pistol,even as an LEO?
 
ringworm

You Said: #1 improbable, #2 irresponsible , I think you are a little over the top here. No one advocated that you do not have a responsibility to control your rounds. With most modern handgun projectiles passing thru human bodies what guarantee that a close range you will not damage non-combatants?

As far as improbable, inside our homes, I agree. Those of us who carry during our daily business, NOT so improbable. My associates and I worked very hard to be accurate at extended range. True, as peace officers we had a obligation to do so. However, that experience taught me that a quick prone 25 yrd shot is not as hard as YOU believe it to be. Many can accomplish that goal.

It would be nice to say the WE KNOW all of the variables that will will occur that influence the outcome of a gun fight. However, the sad fact is that we know very little of the next event.

Above our briefing room door was this sign;

THE TWO QUESTIONS NO ONE CAN ANSWER;

WHAT WILL THE STIMULUS TO FIGHT LOOK LIKE

WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO WIN THE NEXT ENGAGEMENT

I get tired of saying this, hopefully you all will get tired of hearing it and stop arguing about it. As a defensive shooter, we give up much, the OTHER GUY will get to dictate when and where and how far away the gunfight will be, we will respond to that threat as best we can.

I am very hopeful that you like me have other tools on your belt besides shooting to help win an engagment past the caculated average gunfight distance.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
oops...

looks like my targets are 8" not 6".

and this...

ive seen people hit with thrown bricks at 20+ yards
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should have read...

"ive seen people hit with thrown bricks at 20~ yards"

didnt want to edit actual content so long after posting.
 
i remember long long years ago we used to set up five gallon buckets across the field and shoot at em with my old taurus 92. i was always amazed at how many times we (brother an i) could hit the bucket.

did same thing with hi-standard longhorn double nine revolver(that was lots harder).

i agree that going 25 yards makes ya aim the pistol.

i also think that anyone who has their handgun for self protection( as opposed to pure target) should spend the majority of their time at 3-7 yards.

im learning myself that it is really not easy to get a pistol out, get it on target and get two rounds off and hit the target.

i know that all things can be learned and so i try and try.
 
In a static course of fire with calm nerves very few shooters can engage a charlie size target w/ scoreable accurace.
You think thats going to improve in an actual shoot-out?
so while you blasting away at a perp 25 yards away whos getting hit with your misses?
#1 improbable
#2 irresponsible
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I disagree. I used to shoot the old PPC silhoutte course and 25 yards was not considered a long distance shot. 50 yards was much tougher to make good scores on. Hitting the "Charlie size target" was not hard at all, the hard part was keeping them inside the 10-ring.

In actual shoot-outs, police are sometimes called upon to shoot at 25-50 yards. Yes, they miss, but they can also be accurate enough to down bad guys.

With a snubbie or compact auto, 25 yards may be the limit for most folks to hit with any accuracy. The guns are capable of making good hits, it's up to the shooter to place them.
 
So, we can pretty much rule out accuracy at 25 yards as irrelevant to
self defense and home defense...........
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I've always been amused at those who consider the average gunfight distance the standard they'll have to meet should it happen to them. Averages take in all the extremes. While they apply most of the time---not always.

Or the number of shots they'll need based on more averages.

Or the contention that their range ability is somehow related to fighting for their life under more stress than most people have ever experienced.

I've seen pro basketball players who can sink 10 of 10 freethrows in practice, with regularity, choke. With nothing more than a game on the line. Same for pitchers who need that one big pitch, or the field goal kicker who muffed a 30 yarder (like tonight when UCLA beat Tennessee in OT:D). They choked with less adrenaline in their system than we'd have in a gunfight.

If I knew in advance what the circumstances would be I'd stay home that day, or, if unavoidable, be appropriately armed.
 
A lot of the 'old bullseye mentality' is still around these days when it comes to training for handgun fights. 10,15,25 yards are not at all typical distances that handgun fights occur at for the ccw holder. Even police shootings tend to occur within 6 feet. That being said, I find it interesting that most people I see at the range are training at distance of greater than 7 yards. I've been somewhat turned off by IDPA for this reason because most of the shots that I've been required to take have been at 10-15yards. Many of these shots seem to include no shoot 'hostages,' that would be utterly ridiculous if attempted in the real life stress of a gunfight. While a true test of marksmanship skill, they do little to resemble the reality of most gunfights.

Marksmanship is one thing, and is fun and important to become profficient at, but the reality is that gunfights happen in our comfort zones not way down range. While a 15 or 25 yard group the size of a quarter is something quite impressive, it really isn't going to help us when someone is threatening us at distances so close, we can smell his bad breathe.

If any of you have read "On Killing" by Dave Grossman you'll know that there are many problems that arise when facing an adversary that is right in front of us. Having to see a threat's face and then react with deadly force is a hugely difficult task according to Grossman. Heart rates around 175 bpm, tunnel vision, auditory exlusion, even the voiding of the bowels can occur when a human is threatened at such personal distances. These issues are a far cry from trying to keep 5 shots in the 10 ring at 25 yards. Training with gross motor skills, shooting with retention, and learning to shoot fast are far more important skills in my opinon.

Its great to be skilled with your handgun. Be able to make those 25 and 50 yard COM shots. But I wouldn't waste a lot of time and ammo shooting at those distances. I'd spend more time at contact distances out to about 20' because history tells us thats where most fights happen.
 
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