Ron Paul just ended his campaign

The terrorists could give two squirts about what goes on over here in the land of the decadent so long as it doesn't impact them. But we have been directly affecting their commerce, their sovereignty, their politics, and their autonomy for the last fifty years. If you think that doesn't factor into it, perhaps you could be so kind as to enlighten us as to why they've been so busy attacking us as opposed to...say..Denmark.

So I guess the respective countries of origin of all these terrorists do not have a voice or a place to complain about all of our "impact" on their lives. Again, by your reasoning, we gun owners could/should revolt against the Fed Government because of the Laws passed that have "impacted" our lives, and that would be ok if we did. Because you seem to think and understand what the terrorists did to my country is a ok.

If YOU think that if we pulled out all of our interests in the middle east, that the terrorists would just stop, you are really naive.
 
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Even the most ardent of Paul supporters must concede that there isn't any way that Paul will take the nomination.

I agree. I don't think Ron Paul will make it past the primaries and I sure as hell don't think he will ever be President. Despite that I just contributed to his campaign. Something about a public figure who doesn't back away from his public statements just turns me on.

By the way, I support the WAR. Those people over there want a war with SATAN. I say give the people what they want. If we had marched in as conquerors instead of Saviors, this thing would have been over by now. Welcome to East Virginia.
Regardless, I think Ron Paul is the only one who is looking ahead and trying to figure out how to turn an international catastrophe into an economic boom. Geez, who would want that guy as President?
 
If YOU think that if we pulled out all of our interests in the middle east, that the terrorists would just stop, you are really naive.

That is not at all what is being said. The issue stands that our government has made some foreign policy blunders in the past FIFTY plus years that have antagonized the Middle East. The last ten years even more so. But in any event, there are a group of radical fundamentalists who viewed our military's presence on Middle East soil as an affront. They decided that action was required and thus the bombings of embassies, the FIRST World Trade Centr bomb attempt and the infamous 9-11 disaster.

I loathe these people and they should be expunged from the face of the earth, but the simple matter is that our government's policies INSTIGATED this type of animosity.

Leaving the Middle East right now would not necessarily solve everything - the damage has been done. But our present course is not working well either. Wiser men than me have to chart that course and may God help them.

But we can no longer be so ignorant to believe that our actions do not have consequences.
 
It's very clear that US foreign policy was the reason for 9/11. That does NOT excuse what the terrorists did, because they chose to target random people, many of whom probably didn't even know what "their" government was doing in their name overseas.

The US has done a lot of good in the world. It has also done a lot of evil. There is no question about this -- unless someone thinks that the US government did a "good" deed in bringing the brutal dictator Pinochet to power, or that Madeline Albright was being "good" when she said that the sanctions that killed so many innocent Iraqis were worth it.

This isn't America-bashing any more than it's America-bashing to say that the US government committed murder at Waco and Ruby Ridge. Sometimes the truth hurts. I for one would rather accept a painful truth than make myself believe the velvet lies spouted by the neocon talking heads.


By the way, I understand that some in the GOP are trying to get Ron Paul barred from future debates. That's pure cowardice. The GOP elite obviously fear the truth getting out -- and it is getting out, because people are waking up. People are remembering that real conservatism isn't equivalent to mindless jingoism.

It wasn't Ron Paul who didn't belong on that stage -- it was Rudy Giuliani, who is nothing but a pro-war LIBERAL. His views on guns, abortion, illegal immigration, and many other issues are as liberal as liberal gets. If any gun owner votes for that jerk, then I hope they're happy when he's signing the next Assault Weapons Ban that Ron Paul would surely have vetoed.
 
Again, by your reasoning, we gun owners could/should revolt against the Fed Government because of the Laws passed that have "impacted" our lives, and that would be ok if we did.
Maybe ;) According to Jefferson we're long overdue.

Because you seem to think and understand what the terrorists did to my country is a ok.
Did I say that? Please don't put words in my mouth. There is nothing "a-ok" about what they do.

If YOU think that if we pulled out all of our interests in the middle east, that the terrorists would just stop, you are really naive.
I don't think that, but I do think that if we start acting like an investor instead of like an imperialistic superpower the terrorists will lose their support base over time.
If YOU think that we will ever defeat the terrorists by the same methods we're currently using, you are really naive.
 
GoSlash - I agree that U.S. foreign policy was a *factor* in the terrorist's decision to murder innocent citizens, but it is hardly the determining factor.

If your neighbor walks his dog into your yard every day and lets him drop a load in your grass and one day you take a baseball bat to his head, were your neighbor's actions a factor in your response? Certainly. Were they the determining factor? Not by a long shot. You are responsible for your own actions and for ignoring other possible solutions that you should have pursued. You're wrong to attack him for what he's done.

What Paul doesn't realize is that most Americans aren't part of the "It's our fault" mindset. That's what I heard him say in that debate and he is still wrong.

I agree with huchahuchax and will do him one better, I don't think Paul will make it halfway through the primaries.

GoSlash27 said:
...if we start acting like an investor instead of like an imperialistic superpower the terrorists will lose their support base over time.
Now *that's* naive. You really don't understand this enemy.

We have been primarily an investor for decades. If we had been flexing our "imperialistisc superpower" muscles, there would be a United States of Arabia right now. About the only thing that can be construed to be meddling in Arab affairs prior to 2001 is our constant support of Israel and our defense of Kuwait in '91.
 
What Paul doesn't realize is that most Americans aren't part of the "It's our fault" mindset. That's what I heard him say in that debate and he is still wrong.

So when was the last time Joe Citizen got to help make foreign policy? Politicians and economic concerns have had a hand in shaping foreign policy for a while. I guess when Cheney invites the big oil boys to a meeting they sit around playing dominoes?

Most Americans are not part of the "It not our fault mindset" Well you are right its the fault of the political leaders and economic concerns who helped shaped that foreign policy. The foreign policy that put us on a collision course with 9/11.

No two people hear the same thing coming from another person as it runs through their internal filters. You heard what you heard and I heard this.

To sum up Ron Paul's remarks about the foreign policy and 9/11. Its the all about the politicians and ideology and economic interests not about whats best for Joe Citizen.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

Dwight D Eisenhower

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html

hmmm......
 
So when was the last time Joe Citizen got to help make foreign policy?

Do you really think if Paul won, Joe Citizen would get to consult on Foreign Policy, wow. I dont know what to say on that.

Well you are right its the fault of the political leaders and economic concerns who helped shaped that foreign policy. The foreign policy that put us on a collision course with 9/11.

Again, why is America at Fault? It is my policy to shoot someone if they break into my home in the dark A.M. and attempt to do me harm. AM I to blame if someone breaks into my home and I have to defend myself?

Paul has no way of winning the nod, it aint gonna happen. Does snowball and Hell ring a bell. So, waste your vote, money and time supporting a lost cause. That is, of course, your right.
 
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Depends on how you define "fact".
If you define "fact" as the official government finding, the 9/11 commission supports his statement.
If you define "fact" as the public statement of the mastermind himself, that supports his statement too.
If you support "fact" as the end-result of objective reality and reasoning, that supports his statement too.


1. The 9/11 commission is a group of individuals giving their opinion.

2. OBL's statement is not only his opinion, it is enemy propoganda*. Might I suggest reading the rest of that little missive, full of things like "wah! The Man won't let us institute Sharia and stone women to death..."

3. Since other people also looking at the facts in front of them using "objective reality and reasoning" have come to a different conclusion - I think we can toss that definition of "fact" out to.

The terrorists could give two squirts about what goes on over here in the land of the decadent so long as it doesn't impact them. But we have been directly affecting their commerce, their sovereignty, their politics, and their autonomy for the last fifty years. If you think that doesn't factor into it, perhaps you could be so kind as to enlighten us as to why they've been so busy attacking us as opposed to...say..Denmark.

Funny you should mention Denmark. Have you heard of Theo van Gogh? Interesting fallout from that little problem. Further, even the most cursory amount of reading on the Jihadis and their beliefs themselves will reveal that they care very much about "what goes on over here in the land of the decadent." To the point of murdering people.

You - and Paul - have made the critical mistake of assuming they think just like us. They don't.

Is our history in the ME a part of what helped them draw support from some who might otherwise remain uncommited? No doubt.
But that's a far, far cry from saying it's all on our shoulders, and that if we'd never shown up their core still wouldn't have been murderous xenophobes.

-K

* A side issue is.. why on earth would a person take at face value the propoganda put out by a man who proudly admits to ordering the killing of thousands of their countrymen, and discount, ignore, or look for hidden motivations in everything contrary said by their own people tasked with trying to defend their coutrymen? There's a certain kind of sick going on there.
 
Steel Core wrote its very clear that government policy was the reason for 9/11 attacks:

Each individual or group is accountable for its actions, that is called responsibility.
As a reasoning being each man has free will to respond and act according to his predilictions.
When wronged a person can turn the other cheek or punch the wrong doer.
No one has to do anything there are always choices, sometimes the choices are bad, but there are choices.
In no way did the American people( who by definition are the government) hold a gun to Bin Ladens head and give him the choice to Order the attacks or die. He odered the attacks because he is an evil Satanic Worshiper who hates all those who do not bow to HIS GOD and has vowed to kill those who do not bow to Satan. Quite simple.

Eghad Wrote: whens the last time Joe Citizen made foreign policy?:
Answer: Last November
We the people do ordain and establish the government and consent to allow those elected to carry out policy in our behalf. We make policy everyday, we are the government. So no cop outs. If you do not like what is happening Vote, Run for office, organize lobby groups,or revolt but your are responsible, like it or not, particularly if you do nothing.

divemedic wrote: The continential congress was not a government that came later:
The Continental Congress was authorized to conduct Business on behalf of the States citizens,it was an acting soverign body , it stood up an army, made deals with foreign governments, borrowed money and issued land grants. Obviously the Crown recognized this or it would not have sought to destroy it and those in it.

Goslash 27 wrote: depends on what the maening of fact is;

Webster defines A fact as something known to exist or to have happened.
The known fact is we were attcked by terrorists.
 
Dust Monkey said:
Again, why is America at Fault? It is my policy to shoot someone if they break into my home in the dark A.M. and attempt to do me harm. AM I to blame if someone breaks into my home and I have to defend myself?

But that's not what happened at all....terrible analogy that really has no bearing on this discussion




And for the last time, This country is not the government, America does not equal the Federal government. We have a right and a duty as citizens to criticize our government. No one sane is blaming America, we are stating that the flawed foreign policy of our government was and continues to be a contributing factor in terrorism and the recruiting and support of Jihadist movements.
 
From an email I received from Dr. Paul's campaign:


May 19, 2007

The Ron Paul 2008 YouTube channel now has more subscribers than any other presidential candidate -- Republican and Democrat -- except for Barack Obama.

Here are the numbers:

Obama - 5,639
Paul - 4,136
Clinton - 2,854
Edwards - 2,740
Romney - 1,969
Kucinich - 1,671
Giuliani - 1,356
McCain - 1,232
Gravel - 819
Richardson - 745
Biden - 581
Hunter - 381
Dodd - 220
Huckabee - 185
Tancredo - 162
Brownback - 84
Gilmore - 39.
 
We have been primarily an investor for decades. If we had been flexing our "imperialistisc superpower" muscles, there would be a United States of Arabia right now. About the only thing that can be construed to be meddling in Arab affairs prior to 2001 is our constant support of Israel and our defense of Kuwait in '91.

Holy misleading and un-factual, Batman!

Just our long CIA history with Iraq alone refutes that.

If your neighbor walks his dog into your yard every day and lets him drop a load in your grass and one day you take a baseball bat to his head, were your neighbor's actions a factor in your response? Certainly. Were they the determining factor? Not by a long shot. You are responsible for your own actions and for ignoring other possible solutions that you should have pursued. You're wrong to attack him for what he's done.

Just using your example, yes, his actions were a determining factor in the decision to take a baseball bat to his head. That does not indicate right or wrong. It merely means that it is the answer to all of the questions: "Why did you do that?", "What caused you to snap?", and "Come on, let's get serious, what is the REAL reason you took a baseball bat to his head"

A determining factor is not a defense, merely a cause... a puzzle piece in the big picture of the events leading up to a response. Please note that I am calling this a response. That is to indicate that it is not some out of the blue thing waking up one morning "hey I hate their freedoms" type of action. This was deliberate.

Other factors (though not determining) may be "you stopped taking your meds", "you just had a fight with your wife", etc. They are contributing, but the reason your bat was focussed on the back of your neighbors head was his allowing fido to do his duty where he shouldn't have.
 
Divemedic,
The declaration of independence did not create the Union, all it did was announce to King George that the colonies were in a state of rebellion. The Declaration was signed July 4, 1776. The Articles of Confederation (the precursor to the Constitution) were not ratified until November 15, 1777.
Technically, what you said is correct; the Declaration of Independence did not, in and of itself, “create” the United States of America, and a “state of war” already existed by July 4, 1776. I think you’re missing key facts of the early formation of this nation though. The First Continental Congress formed in 1774, well before Lexington and Concord. Even more to the point, the Committee of Correspondence had been formed in 1772-1773, establishing the groundwork for the Continental Congress, and what was to become a United States of America. At the First Continental Congress, Articles of Association were established, which essentially banded together what came to be the the United States, as the united States of America (note the small “u”). The united States of America in 1774, established a means to peacefully resolve the same issues that later served as the impetus for a formal separation from the crown. Moreover, it was the crown that had made the most overt acts of a military nature, indeed the housing of soldiers in civilian homes was one of the specific “Intolerable Acts” the First Continental Congress sought to rectify.
So tell me how George Washington differed from the men we are now branding as terrorists.
I won’t even get into the tactics used by our Founders vs. the tactics of todays terrorists. Instead I’ll keep this to the philosophical and institutional differences.

First, George Washington fought at the head of a defined and uniformed army representing a collection of established governments. Second, the united governments George Washington fought for had sought a resolution of the unfair practices of the crown for many, many years prior to an outbreak of hostilities. Even after the outbreak of overt war at Lexington and Concord, the united States sought to peacefully resolve these issues such as by sending the crown the Olive Branch Petition. Third, George Washington and those he fought for, sought a specific declared objective, namely a resolution to certain oppressive acts by the top level of their own government. When that became impossible through peaceful means, they progressed to violence.

The terrorists we fight today have nothing in common with out Founders. They ramble on about various grievances we (America) have given them, but the fact is, we have acted in accordance with their own governments. Our actions in Saudi Arabia might annoy these terrorists, but it has been done with the agreement of their government. Our support of Israel might aggravate them, but it has been done in agreement with the Israeli government (moreover, it is the sovereign right of a nation to choose who its “friends” are, and how to support them). The terrorists of today are not representative of any government, nor are they even representative of a single nation. They are a mixed bag of individuals from many nations striking out against anybody their whim dictates on a given day; see terrorists attacks in Spain, Indonesia, Australia, the UK, the US, Casablanca, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, et cetera (those are just some of the specified al-Qeada attacks). They do not represent a nation, government, or even majority of citizens from a nation.

Today’s militant muslim extremists have nothing in common with our Founders. To suggest they do is offensive and smacks of ignorance bordering on delusional.
 
Do you really think if Paul won, Joe Citizen would get to consult on Foreign Policy, wow. I dont know what to say on that.

Not everday, but the beleifs of Dr. Paul on foreign policy are where America should be. I feel he represents my beliefs on the issue. That America needs to get off the teat of middle east and other countries oil. Energy independence translates into national security.

Again, why is America at Fault?

Did I say America as a whole was at fault? No, I said it was those politicians and economic interests that put us on course with a collision on 9/11.
 
TBM,
So if you concede that it was a factor, then surely you can take it far enough to realize that the factor can be altered?
To use your analogy, it might be wise to consider *not* having your dog take a dump on your crazy neighbor's yard every day.

Of course the response by the terrorists to our ME policy was misguided, misdirected, and way out of proportion. But then again, our response to their response was equally misguided, misdirected, and way out of proportion.

Going back to the original topic, the argument seems to be that Paul stepped on his own crank by pointing this out, but the polls indicate otherwise. Public sentiment is overwhelmingly against this war, against attacking Iran, against the current "track", and against the Bush administration.
The numbers are so dismal that they represent more than just the liberals, they also represent roughly half the Republicans. Who are all these people going to side with when only one candidate out of the ten advocates a course change?
No, he didn't kill his campaign.
 
I like Ron Paul. He says what he believes. I agree with a lot of what he says.
But unfortunately that last debate I feel hurt him a lot and it doesn't seem like he will recover. I keep hearing him to be made out like some kind of nut case on the various political shows. Too bad I would vote for him in a minute. I still think Fred Thompson has a shot though. The rest of them you can keep. But I still would take a Republican before any other the Dems that are running.
 
I find the title of this thread almost humorous now..a week after the debate Ron Paul still has a 49% approval rating while his next nearest competitor only has a 23% approval rating (Mitt Romney). According to that poll, Ron Paul also has the LOWEST disapproval rating at 26%. The next lowest is Mike Huckabee with a 42% disapproval rating.

The approval ratings for all the other candidates are MUCH lower.

At Vote.com Ron Paul is polling at 55%, Rudy Giuliani, his nearest competitor, is only polling at 18%. This poll is supposedly going straight to the Republican National Committee.

ABC News has Paul way ahead in the polls.

He's gotten plugs on The View and by Bill Maher, and on CNN.

The last debate certainly did not end Dr. Paul's campaign. If anything, it has helped solidify Ron Paul as the GOP's best hope to keep the White House next year.
 
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