Ron Paul he is direct.

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Ron Paul is certainly not a racist, but he's man of principle. One of those principles is belief in freedom of association -- that people have a fundamental right to choose their friends, business partners, employees, and so forth.

The notion that people have a right to NOT be discriminated against on ANY basis, including race, is a liberal myth. What is modern liberalism, after all? Essentially, it's the belief that big government should enforce equality of social outcomes. Put another way, it's an offshoot of Marxism, sometimes referred to as "cultural Marxism."

The situation we have now is that whites -- especially heterosexual white males -- are considered "oppressors," and it's absolutely taboo for whites to organize along racial lines. On the other hand, it's considered perfectly okay for "minority" groups to self-segregate and discriminate, because they're "oppressed" by evil whites. Hence, we see African-American student associations, Asian-American student associations, "historically black" colleges, Latino interest groups, etc. -- but the moment whites form a group dedicated to white interests, it's called a "hate group." Why is that any more hateful than other ethnic groups forming similar organizations?

If we could have a truly color-blind society, then I'd be all for it. Sadly, I think separate ethnic groups will generally tend to stick together, and any multicultural society will end up having conflicts. Government can try to keep things stable, but that only leads to loss of freedom. Note how in some Western countries, such as England, you can go to prison for racially offensive speech. In several other European countries, you can go to prison for questioning any details about the Holocaust! (I'm half-Jewish and have relatives who suffered in Nazi camps, but freedom of speech is still a lot more important to me than anyone's feelings, including my own.) I can see such laws eventually being passed in the US, since more and more sissies here are demanding that the Almighty Government protect their "right" not to be offended.

So, what's next? Making it illegal not to shop at a certain number of minority-owned stores? Tossing people into "sensitivity reeducation camps" on suspicion of hate for having too few friends of different ethnicities? How far shall we go to enforce morality and create a perfect Marxist utopia?

Whether people hate other people, for reasons good or bad, is none of the government's business. To whom people sell or rent, from whom they buy, and whom they employ, is none of the government's business. Anything else is pure liberal neo-Marxism. If people want to be despicable or unreasonable and discriminate solely on the basis of race, hair color, taste in clothing, accent, or anything else, then they have that right as long as they're not interfering with the equal rights of others. That's part of what it means to live in a FREE country.
 
Just out of curiosity, and if you have stated it I apologize in advance, I searched through your old posts and could not find one on the surface, but is there anything you disagree with RP on? Not a bash, not a jab, just a simple question.
Yes, but that's irrelevant to my desire to elect him to the presidency.

Others have stated that some support Ron Paul as the only human capable of saving America. I will state categorically that in the context ONLY of his being a candidate, and among all of the current or proposed candidacies so far, he's the only one I can support in the election. I don't think anyone can save America, except we Americans. What we need is a president who's willing and capable of giving us the breathing room to begin to accomplish that daunting task.

Ron Paul is the only candidate who MAY be able to do that, the rest, and that's ALL the rest, are business as usual.
 
I want all the non-paulers to come up with a way to fix the party and the country.......
the silence is deafening

thought so

and the energy level (the lack of it) makes me want to check your blood sugar.

Lead follow or get out of the way.
 
In case y'all forgot what property rights are...

"A right of ownership is associated with property that establishes the good as being "one's own thing" in relation to other individuals or groups, assuring the owner the right to dispense with the property in a manner he or she sees fit, whether to use or not use, exclude others from using, or to transfer ownership."

So there you have the modern definition of property and hence rights. Property entitles you to many things and among them are the right to exclude, include, destroy, manipulate and exploit that which you own. If you wish, you can exclude siamese twins or people of Irish/Czech immigration. There is no morality involved here, either you own it or you do not. When somebody forces you to do anything with your property against your will, you have lost part of your rights and hence your property.

A lot of you seem to need to do a little more homework on the idea of what a "right" is, and is not, and maybe a little reading by Thomas Sowell could help you understand both property, economics and racism and how they all intertwine. Freedom of property and association have traditionally been the most effective ways to combat institutionalized racism. In order for that to function though, all citizens must be treated as absolutely equal to each other in a court of law. THere should be no race involved in civil suits or criminal.

That is the society I seek with my vote and why I will vote for the guy who will move me that direction.

Just like the gun banners tend to believe all Americans are "seething cauldrons of homicidal rage" (to quote from Jeffery Snyder), it seems like a lot of people here believe that most whites are bigots and the only protection for other races is to have the government guarantee access to them to my property.

Let's expound a bit. I sometimes lease my property for hunting. I can't say I've ever had a black man here to lease it (none have applied but it's beside the point)- should the government go find somebody and make me lease to them based on the fact that they are black and I have never leased to African Americans?

What about your house? If you've never had a black person in your house, should the government guarantee access to your house by force? What about your business? A relative of mine worked to manage a lot of convenience stores. They didn't hire Nigerians. Why? Because 100% of the Nigerian immigrants they hired stole from them (not some belief, they were all caught on camera). They'd hire anybody else, but judging that something in the Nigerian culture made them a theft risk, they decided not to ever hire a person from Nigeria. You could argue that it is wrong, just as you could argue that when you drive through a city but avoid stopping at the inner city gas stations, you are committing an act of prejudice, but it is your right. Should the government force you to stop at the inner city gas stations and fill up while your wife and daughters are with you? WHy or why not? Why do you suppose that everything is more expensive in the inner city slum stores?

Think about property. It matters.
 
It's clear that neither Ron Paul nor his supporters support the Civil Rights Act. They would like to go back to a time when blacks were not allowed to shop at certain stores, had to ride in the back of a bus, were not allowed to purchase real property, were segregated in black-only schools, and were not hired for jobs....all because of the color of their skin. I guess that forgetting the history of the civil rights struggle in this country is easy for Ron Paul supporters.

40 years ago, the Courts and the Congress rejected this kind of institutionalized racism. They understood the effect of racism on interstate commerce, as well as on our Nation as a whole. But Ron Paul and his supporters would celebrate the return of such institutionalized racism, and simply stammer about a property owner's "right" to be a racist. I suppose that its easy to shrug your shoulders and say "oh well, it's a property issue" when it is not you who has been denied a job because, well, they don't hire blacks at that job....

Paul's opposition to the Civil Rights Act is just as misguided as his opposition to the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. In both cases, Paul and his supporters would ignore decades of Supreme Court precedent about congressional power to regulate interstate commerce. Paul and his supporters would be content with blacks being discriminated against, and with firearm manufacturers being sued out of existance, based on a "philosophy" that is both morally and legally incorrect.

So if you want to go back to a time when blacks and other minorities regularly encountered racism, to a time of race riots, to an age when our society was segregated, then vote for Ron Paul.
 
I disagree with everything in the above post, and do not believe it is factually correct. I think his words were taking out of context, and Tim Russert did not give him the opportunity to fully explain his position on the subject.
 
It's clear that neither Ron Paul nor his supporters support the Civil Rights Act.
While I don't speak for the Ron Paul presidential campaign directly or indirectly, I can state categorically that I do NOT support the Civil Rights Act, but do support civil rights access. The Civil Rights Act isn't about civil rights in any way and never has been.

It's about government power to tell individuals what to do with their lives and property. It is an act that is fascist to its core.
 
Saying that 95% of inner city black males are criminal is just wrong. It's probably no more than 85%.

But, the 15% that aren't criminals should have exactly the same rights as anybody else.
 
No one is saying anyone deserves less access to civil or any other type of rights. No one, however, has the right to use anothers property at gun point, rulings by the corrupt court system notwithstanding.
 
Fremmer said:
It's clear that neither Ron Paul nor his supporters support the Civil Rights Act. They would like to go back to a time when blacks were not allowed to shop at certain stores, had to ride in the back of a bus, were not allowed to purchase real property, were segregated in black-only schools, and were not hired for jobs....all because of the color of their skin. I guess that forgetting the history of the civil rights struggle in this country is easy for Ron Paul supporters.
You're tackling a strawman here.

What you're describing is government-enforced segregation. Certainly the vast majority of Ron Paul supporters, myself included, are completely opposed to that. But government-enforced integration and equality of social outcomes is every bit as inimical to freedom.

In a free country, you are free to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, or any other factor, reasonable or unreasonable. There is no "natural right" to never be subject to offense or discrimination. Such "rights" only exist in an unfree, socialist "utopia" of the sort that America is rapidly becoming.
 
No one, however, has the right to use anothers property at gun point

Reminds me of the paranoia of the 60's propagated by the KKK and others. We were told that if we had a swimming pool at our home we would be forced to let blacks use it. I remember it well. Never happened.
 
While I don't speak for the Ron Paul presidential campaign directly or indirectly, I can state categorically that I do NOT support the Civil Rights Act

You don't have to speak for Ron Paul; he clearly stated that he wouldn't vote for the Civil Rights Act, and his Ron Paul newsletter complained about black people having civil rights. His position is parroted by his supporters, too: institutionalized racism and the denial of civil rights for minorities is excused by the ownership of property. IIRC, that's the same argument that was made in favor of the owning black people, too. It was wrong then, just like it is wrong now.

And this is Ron Paul's looney vision for the future of our Country??? :confused:
 
You don't have to speak for Ron Paul; he clearly stated that he wouldn't vote for the Civil Rights Act, and his Ron Paul newsletter complained about black people having civil rights. His position is parroted by his supporters, too: institutionalized racism and the denial of civil rights for minorities is excused by the ownership of property. IIRC, that's the same argument that was made in favor of the owning black people, too. It was wrong then, just like it is wrong now.

And this is Ron Paul's looney vision for the future of our Country???

I don't support the CRA. It's wrong because in it's attempt to correct one wrong it perpetuates another wrong... dictating to property owners what you can do with your property. That itself is slavery.

If you really want to end rascism, do what my family did. Adopt a black child (or any other non-white child) into your household. Make a difference without a government mandate.
 
this applies to Paul on most issues:

Paul understands this but the concept is beyond most Americans and a fair share of the members on this board.

+1,000,000

If Paul has a flaw, it's one of viability: Joe Sixpack's emotional hot buttons flare up, keepng him from seeing the simple, Constitutional truths in Paul's message.:D Hence, all the claims of, "he's a looney" when he seems to be the sanest of candidates to me.

The only way Paul can be construed as insane, is in his expectation of political success in today's America without speaking in emotionally-charged but content-neutral phrases. His craziness is trying to engage the rational mind of middle America--a thing I'm beginning to feel is fictional.

Take a critical look at the semantic content. Some of you folks can't seem to fathom that opposition to the Civil Rights Act is not the same as opposition to racial equality. One is a bill, the other is a vague concept. Why are some folks so prone to make the extensional logic error that criticism of the Act is criticism of the entire concept of equality. In this case, Paul made a good, sound case for why the Act may not have been the best way to skin that cat, but minds closed to his argument as soon as negative senitment was registered against the sacred Civil Rights Act. Did he SAY he wants to return to segregated lunch counters? No. So why not focus on the content of what he SAID, and not an imagined racist subtext that isn't there?

Paul has flaws--I don't think he's got the right peronality to be a CINC. However, he's got my vote.

Some of the arguments against him remind me of what Ayn Rand wrote about being locked in a room with a slathering, irrational beast. Oh wait, she's a looney, too....;)
 
Another big flaw is his absolute disregard of history, specifically what was happening in this Country before the Civil Rights Act was enacted. Institutional racism was deeply rooted in some states, and required federal legislation and federal enforcement of the legislation to eliminate. Before the Act was enacted, there were signs in businesses' windows excluding black people, or segregating them to certain areas (away from white people). Employers refused to hire black people solely on the basis of race.

'Leaving it to the states' didn't work, which is why the Federal Government had to step in and stop the discrimination. The Civil Rights Act is an effective tool to prohibit discrimination. It is constitutional, and it should be enforced. Ron Paul can't be trusted to enforce the Act. Why go back to a time when racism was tolerated?
 
fremmer said:
Why go back to a time when racism was tolerated?

i think you mean, why go back to a time when private property rights were tolerated?

how about, why go back to a time when gun ownership was widely tolerated?

things always look a lot different to people when its their ideas and beliefs that are being attacked. im sure you are unable to see the similarities, though.

basically what you are crying for is tolerance...for the things you like. but when it comes to something that you do not like, the word tolerance slips out of your vocabulary.

fremmer said:
and required federal legislation and federal enforcement of the legislation to eliminate.

this is probably the most telling quote you have put forward yet. you are not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination if you believe this. of course education would have never worked. pointing out to business owners the benefits of allowing black people to shop and work at their stores never would have worked. boycotts of stores that used these practices never would have worked either. just like it didnt work on the bus companies...oh wait.

i think you are the one who is ignorant of history, not paul.
 
Another excellent article by a person obviously well educated on the Lincoln issue.

Now that the MSM has introduced this subject into debate, they may get a whole lot more than they ever bargained for. I think that is a good thing.

LINCOLN'S FEET OF CLAY
"THE GREAT EMANCIPATOR" WAS A RACIST TYRANT

By: Kevin Tuma

"My paramount objective in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.”

-Abraham Lincoln, August 22, 1862, Letter to Newspaper Editor Horace Greeley

In recent news, the Press has begun to pillory Ron Paul over his unconventional views of the US Civil War. It is unknown what they hope to accomplish by spotlighting a 147-year old historical event as a campaign issue; but the inference, since the discussions concern slavery, suggests a subtle attempt to smear Paul as a racist.

Before the socialist tyrant lovers in the mainstream media wax too orgasmic about using Paul’s position against him, it is worth pointing out that his position is the intelligent and informed position. It’s long since past obvious that the MSM is uninterested in reaching an intelligent, informed audience---but I’m not too sure this Lincoln debate is something they really want to dredge up into a national controversy. The odds are much too high that modern-day people may actually learn something new.
Read the complete article
 
Just from the manic adjectives used in the sampling it's clear that the author isn't any more objective or any less "uninterested in reaching an intelligent, informed audience" then those he excoriates.

Poor advocacy, in fact, counterproductive advocacy as it projects far more vitriol then dignity.

It would serve Paul's campaign much better to take a clearly high road message to people in the dignified, credible, and poignant manner appropriate to such a message. The heart is becoming covered up by the froth.
 
Fremmer, I am curious about something. Do you really think your anti-Paul messages are going to change anyone's mind? I recently posed the question to the members of this forum as to whether or not anti-Paul messages had caused anyone to rethink their opinion of him (good or bad) and no one said that they had changed their minds.

So I ask, do you think you are wasting your time continuing to speak against him?
 
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