Ron Paul he is direct.

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This is just another stellar example of Ron Paul's astounding misunderstanding of the United States Constitution. Why vote for someone who believes that racial discrimination is constitutional? He's not only legally wrong, he's morally wrong.

Perhaps you can go read the COTUS and tell me where it says a private property owner does not have say over who he allows on his property.

Lots of things are constitutional but not right. I could walk up to you on the street and call you a person who has intercourse with your mother and it would be constitutional. That doesn't make it right though. The COTUS is not about RIGHT and WRONG. It is about setting up rules for a gov't that functions while allowing the maximum amount of freedom to exist in the population. Every rule you add reduces that freedom.

I think you have every right to be a racist. I also believe Al Sharpton has every right to be a racist. If a black man owns a store and doesn't want white people in it he should be allowed to say so.

You make the mistake of many Americans who think they know about our COTUS. You want our legislature to define MORALITY. You want a bunch of Reps and Senators to pass laws saying what someone else would be allowed to do because if they didn't those people might do things you dislike. This is fine and dandy as long as they only pass law you agree with but you give away this power to gov't then complain when it comes back to bite you in the rear with things like an Assault Weapons Ban, Fairness Doctrine, Reverse Discrimination, Abortion on Demand for Minors with no Parental Notification.

Get this straight, the purpose of our gov't was to protect the nation from attack and to establish a framework for interaction within the nation allowing the maximum amount of freedom. If you want to preach morality then go to church. The gov't should be concerned with legislating against only those things which directly harm another. Theft, Murder, Assault, Vandalism, Rape, etc. If you choose to be an ignorant bigot and refuse your services or private property to another due to their race or religion then that should be your business. If enough people feel you are a piece of trash for doing so they can tell you by not doing business with you. Gov't has no place in it though.

The gov't should be blind to all forms of religion, sex and race. That means equal protection under the law. The Jew has his murderer prosecuted just like the Christian and neither is barred from running for office.

You are quick to throw out SCOTUS arguments but it is rare that the gov't EVER says it does not have the right to regulate something. Ask a gov't appointee to decide if the gov't has the right to do something, what answer do you expect to get? It the fault of Americans, both left and right, who were stupid enough to want their guys in Washington to legislate against those other people they disagreed with. Such Americans GAVE the power to legislate morality to gov't but forgot that power doesn't disappear when the other party takes over.

Paul is one to say "tear it down." We should never have given gov't such power in the first place and we need to reclaim it. Giving away freedom to gov't is never a good thing and rarely is it returned.

The bottom line is this nation is full of nosy busybodies who want to legislate what goes on in others homes, bedrooms, doctors offices, and places of business. You would all rather fight about which invasion of privacy you wish gov't to practice rather than simply admit all invasions are wrong and it is up to people to behave civilly, not gov't to make them do so.
 
Musketeer: I agree with you in the main except when you limit someone doing business with someone he/she doesn't like because of race, ethnicity, etc.

That's preventing a citizen from engaging in our free marketplace.

What if a gun dealer said he wouldn't sell a gun to you because he didn't like your race? (And for no other reason?)

That's an infringement of a fundamental right you have to participate in a free marketplace.

Now, if he/she is giving guns away for free, that's a different story.

Also, I think it is very bad when someone won't buy from a merchant because they don't like their race, etc. That doesn't seem to be regulated (well it is much harder to regulate)? So, what I'm saying is somewhat illogical. I realize that.
 
Musketeer, at your assumed income level(?) I would guess you're only getting National Defense benefits out of your tax dollars currently?

Defense certainly. My daughter attends public school and I drive on public roads. I pay for health care privately. I have a private retirement fund that is being added to by myself since I have no expectation of Gov't assistance (or simply paying me back the money I have thrown into the Social Security toilet).

I see 50% I could chop right now, although the interest on the debt needs to be paid until cleared. Of course getting rid of the bloat should help. Defense is also higher than needed, Iraq is really hurting there.
 
Well there's no doubt that substantial amounts of money are going to individuals who didn't work for it.

This has been a very serious problem in our country for quite some time now.
 
Musketeer: I agree with you in the main except when you limit someone doing business with someone he/she doesn't like because of race, ethnicity, etc.

That's preventing a citizen from engaging in our free marketplace.

What if a gun dealer said he wouldn't sell a gun to you because he didn't like your race? (And for no other reason?)

That's an infringement of a fundamental right you have to participate in a free marketplace.
I'm not a Ron Paul supporter but I don't agree with that. This attitude confuses several issues. First of all, who is doing the preventing? The private citizen. Who owns the business? The private citizen. If a black (I really don't like the term for many reasons, what defines a black or white man?) decides he doesn't want whites in his restaurant that should be his right. It would be stupid, also if it was visa versa, but if we are going to legislate against stupidity there will be no end to the tital wave of laws. Which is were we've been heading with government dictated thought control.
 
If a black man owns a store and doesn't want white people in it he should be allowed to say so.

Not when it significantly affects interstate commerce. ;) Which has been the law for forty years now. But don't let decades of supreme court precedent get in the way of Paul's property-rights excuse when it comes to allowing discrimination based on race.

This is what Ron Paul wants? Signs in shops excluding people of a certain race? I guess Ron Paul doesn't take civil rights very seriously at all. :confused:
 
You know, I'll be the first to admit that I'm dumber than dirt. But when I read the Constitution it is easy to see that it is a simple rule book that outlines exactly what the federal government is permitted to do. It doesn't state anywhere what the federal government can't do... which is why the 10th Amendment was added... those things that can't be specifically found within the Constitution are to be left to the States and the People.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 has been subverted into meaning anything pertaining to economic activity which has lead to the federal government interjecting itself into every facet of our lives... something completely opposite of the what the Constitutions intent is... a limit on government.
 
Musketeer: I agree with you in the main except when you limit someone doing business with someone he/she doesn't like because of race, ethnicity, etc.

That's preventing a citizen from engaging in our free marketplace.

Is it right, no. I am not looking for a gov't to define right and wrong though. The merchant who chooses to limit his market though will eventually loose to the merchant who doesn't. If your gunshop had a sign up that said "We refuse to sell to Blacks" would you shop there? I know I wouldn't. I would drive an extra hour to avoid lining his pockets. The shop has now lost all its black business and a fair share of the white business. How in the long run can he really be successful?

It is not a "free marketplace" if the gov't is telling people who they must do business with. We must remove from ourselves the expectation that it is up to the government to right all wrongs. It is so much easier to pawn the responsibility of being good people off on gov't. People are conditioned to believe they simply need do what the gov't tells them rather than think for themselves with regards to ethics.

The bigoted shopkeeper has RIGHT to be a racist. It may be repulsive but it should be his right. Do I want to defend such an individual? Of course not. I need to defend him though because the mentality that allows gov't to interfere in his private affairs can be used to enable interference in everyone else's private affairs. Just like the old line of "Not agreeing with what you say but defending with my life your right to say it." We have lost that understanding.

No person should have a right to force another person to conduct private business with them. It should be purely voluntary between the individuals. While it may sound noble putting gov't in a position insisting a store sell to blacks you are in actuality stripping the freedom of one person to benefit another. Give gov't that power and it can be used against you.

When that pedophile comes to you looking to rent the legal apartment connected to your house will you be able to say "no" once it is determined pedophilia is a "Disease"? Remember the Americans with Disabilities Act says you can't discriminate... How about the Transgender individual you would rather not have living on the other side of your wall from your 5 year old? The drug addict for whom drug addiction is a disease would make a wonderful neighbor. You may state I am making extreme examples but they are only possible when you allow gov't to have a say in private business transactions. Once you start down the path of allowing gov't a say in all such matters, as we have, the road only becomes broader. We go from not being able to say no to anyone based on race or religion to actually requiring quotas! That has already happened. Then the "classes" of individuals who are protected groups are enlarged based on the favored group of the day.

No, we need to understand the danger of this, stop it and roll it back. People have a right to be lousy human beings. We all have a responsibility to ourselves and our fellow man to behave in an ethical manner WITHOUT the gov't interfering with us. If we do not like what a fellow citizen is doing we should be the ones voting with our feet and dollars! We should not be going to gov't saying "We don't like this guy and want you to go get him!" Give gov't that power and you may not like who they go after next...
 
What if all gun dealers were black and refused to sell guns to whites? Would that be ok with you jaser and musketeer?

It sure as he** wouldn't be ok with me!

It's a slippery slope jaser and musketeer, it's a slippery slope. And you both know it.;)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel it is paramount in a Capitalist society to have a free marketplace for everyone.

Although there are downsides to my belief, I believe it is more correct. I could be wrong but that's my honest belief.

Off topic: You know Musketeer, I just noticed your sign-off quotes criticizing religion. Here's one from Einstein:

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
 
This is what Ron Paul wants? Signs in shops excluding people of a certain race? I guess Ron Paul doesn't take civil rights very seriously at all.

Ignorance abounds...

Saying someone should have a right to something is NOT saying you think they should do it. Ron Paul believes gov't should be blind to race, sex and religion. He thinks people should deal fairly with each other and has never stated he agrees with racism. At the same time it is clear he believes you have a right to BE a racist, or moron, or low life.

Tell me how well the gov't has managed things with this discrimination. When I got my degree in Aerospace Engineering it was right at the end of the Cold War. Jobs were in high demand and Lockheed was coming to campus looking for new engineers. They asked how many girls or blacks were in the graduating class that semester and when they heard none they left. The previous semester they hired a girl I knew who had a photographic memory and the common sense of a sea sponge. Her senior design project had her putting "Lightening Holes" (not electrical, to save weight) in the SKIN OF AN AIRCRAFT"S WING!!! The effects of pressure differential between the top and bottom of the wing seem to have been lost on her. That is what you get when you put the gov't in charge.

You can't elect to give just a little power to gov't, it always expands from what it has been allowed. Expecting the SCOTUS to reign it in is a joke since the SCOTUS has grabbed more power for itself than any other branch of government. Saying the SCOTUS has upheld the unconstitutional expansion of gov'ts powers is like saying the fox has done an excellent job guarding the hen house. WE should be the ones watching out for gov't expansion yet we are continually putting people in power who are there to grab more power. We don't mind though as long as they use it against other people we disagree with.
 
What if all gun dealers were black and refused to sell guns to whites? Would that be ok with you jaser and musketeer?

It would be their right. I would then have to go elsewhere. Are you going to claim the national chains are going to decide to exclude people based on race or religion?

ALL dealers will never agree on any such concept as discrimination. If there is a market someone will appear to fill it. If people manage to appear to fill a demand for illegal guns in places like DC and NYC I can't believe that there would not be someone who would appear to meet a legal market.
 
And we will get the government to FORCE that FREE marketplace on everyone. Whoo, something is wrong with that picture.
It's only a free marketplace if the government stays OUT of it.
 
Not when it significantly affects interstate commerce. Which has been the law for forty years now. But don't let decades of supreme court precedent get in the way of Paul's property-rights excuse when it comes to allowing discrimination based on race.
There is no interstate commerce nexus. The SCOTUS didn't have the power to grant to itself in the first place, it was acting unConstitutionally.

This is what Ron Paul wants? Signs in shops excluding people of a certain race? I guess Ron Paul doesn't take civil rights very seriously at all.
I don't recall Ron Paul making a statement desiring race based exclusions of patrons in private businesses, but they're entirely Constitutional.

Thurgood Marshall himself had great resistance to this grant of unConstitutional power over private property, though in the end he sold out to the pressure.

More importantly, businesses run by black entrepreneurs suffered greatly as a result of this usurpation of private property rights, a fact glossed over by the leftist busybodies in America.
 
There's nothing ignorant about confronting Ron Paul's view of the civil rights. He's already stated that he wouldn't vote for the Civil Rights Act. If it were up to Ron Paul and his supporters, businesses could exclude customers on the basis of race. Businesses would be allowed to discriminate against (for example) black people, simply because of the color of their skin. And 40 years of hard work to establish civil rights for blacks would be instantly wiped out by a Ron Paul presidency.

Oh sure, Ron Paul hates discrimination; he doesn't want anyone to discriminate against anybody. He just doesn't believe in the civil rights act. :rolleyes: Combine that view with Ron Paul's newsletter calling 95% of black people criminals (and complaining that blacks were granted civil rights), along with retaining campaign donations from white supremists, and you get a clear picture of Ron Paul's views about racism and discrimination.

Ron Paul needs a new speech: he could call it, "I have a Dream." Yes, Ron Paul has a dream, of a world where Americans can discriminate against one another based on the color of their skin....
 
I wouldn't vote for the CRA either as it's not within the context of the federal government's right or authority. This coming from an "immigrant" to the US, which in and of itself could be the basis of discrimination against me since I'm not a native son.

This is a matter for the states, not the federal government.
 
40 years of hard work to establish civil rights for blacks would be instantly wiped out by a Ron Paul presidency.

Of course the improvements in race relations over the last 40 years are only due to government actions. :barf: It had nothing to do with education... :rolleyes:

The real benefit of the Civil Rights Movement was NOT legislation. It was raising the awareness of the issue and educating the public as to what was going wrong. Forcing people to do business with each other by holding a gun to the head of one of them IS NOT the way to improve race relations. It only drives the hate deeper. What would happen if you outlawed a religion? All it does is cause the religion to flourish in oppression and establish antagonism. The same is accomplished with having the gov't interfere in race relationships where the gov't doesn't belong. The racism still exists, it actually flourishes, in an underground manner.

Opposing discrimination through legislation when gov't money is being used (mass transit, public service and such) is entirely correct. Private business is the issue here. The gov't has no place there. They have insinuated themselves into such places and justified their own actions. Only the people can truly oppose this but the people are too stupid to understand what they have done.

The sad thing is when the people crying for gov't interference learn the hard way that getting the gov't OUT of your business is much harder than getting it IN I will not be able to laugh at their plight since I am forced to share it.
 
Not when it significantly affects interstate commerce. Which has been the law for forty years now. But don't let decades of supreme court precedent get in the way of Paul's property-rights excuse when it comes to allowing discrimination based on race.
When did they decide it was an interstate economic issue? Neither do I share your view that majority opinions in the Supreme Court are always right. To be consistent, slavery was OK because it was legal.
This is what Ron Paul wants? Signs in shops excluding people of a certain race? I guess Ron Paul doesn't take civil rights very seriously at all.
I want freedom of speech, that doesn't mean I that agree with everything said.
What if all gun dealers were black and refused to sell guns to whites? Would that be ok with you jaser and musketeer?
There's several reason the question has a false premiss. First of all, the only way it could happen is if the government refused to hand out licenses to white folks. Whatever 'white' means. Secondly, not all members of a racial group think alike so it wouldn't happen unless there was external pressure. A national organization to exclude a race would be exactly what the equal rights amendment would prevent. The problem is it has been extended to micro-manage the individual's liberty as well.
 
Exactly. Equal rights access is a limit on government, not on private property. The notion that all gun dealers could be of one race or ethnicity is based on a notion of government power of exclusion. That is to say using government to deny rights, a power which is strictly prohibited to government.
 
Pat...

Just out of curiosity, and if you have stated it I apologize in advance, I searched through your old posts and could not find one on the surface, but is there anything you disagree with RP on? Not a bash, not a jab, just a simple question.
 
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