Road Rage or just jerk?

A law was broken.

There was an immediate threat, a possibly armed stranger trailed a man for miles.

There was no overt threat of violence, but that's not necessary to give a concern of danger. Road rage doesn't always require "rage." Do drive by shooters signal their intent to attack before spraying a car with bullets?

Common sense is presumed in most legal code, and when I post things like this, i also presume that the reader will use common sense. A reasonable person won't call 911 because a senile old woman is following him, but beyond that, nearly any other incident like this could be a threat, and a person should always think carefully about the motive his stalker may have.

I was driving once behind a guy with a pickup. he drove past a kid on a bike who was riding on the very edge of the street. The passenger leaned out and belted the kid on the head with what looked like a backpack. A kid who waved a sign for dominos here was working, and a car full of guys drove past and hit him with a rock. If you can be blindsided by a bunch of punks on the road, allowing a person to follow you for miles seems to be a bad idea.
 
BRIANDG; What law was "broken"? I'm not seeing probable cause... for anything, at least not that a DA would prosecute.

"Possibly armed"?? Possibly unarmed as well. Was a weapon displayed? What leads you to believe there was a weapon involved? Any Threats conveyed??? What charge would you allege in detail. Where is your probable cause, that you would present to the District Attorney, based upon what was previously written? If you were a responding LEO, how would you write your probable cause for arrest and depict the threat you mention as "imminent "?

Last I knew, driving down the road and talking to someone wasn't against the law. The guy may have been a complete jerk, but he broke no laws from what I read. Please explain in detail how and what laws he violated, what the threat exactly was.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, just playing Devil's advocate. Perhaps Tennessee Police and Courts operate differently, but at least help us understand how you think he broke a law.

You wrote ".There was an immediate threat, a possibly armed stranger trailed a man for miles". And then "There was no overt threat of violence,". :confused:
Ok, so which was is it, an "immediate threat", or "no overt threat of violence "???

I think they OP handled himself fine, diffused the situation and left. He displayed confidence.
 
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Not directed at the OP, but these are dangerous times. My wife has a tendency to honk at people who pull dangerous or rude stunts in their vehicles. I've finally got her to stop, unless it is to warn someone to their benefit. Making any kind of disagreeable gestures to other drivers is creating potential confrontation. If people are into that, enjoy the potential repercussions. Not me. As much as I am tempted at times, it's not worth it.
 
sure shot, the law that was broken was simple assault. According to the laws where he lives, the guy drove in a manner that is certain to intimidate most people and he did it deliberately.

The driver, who was the 'victim' of this low level simple assault misdemeanor, was in fact intimidated to the point that he diverted from his intended path and eventually sought shelter from someone that had caused him to be concerned about his safety. We know this as a fact, he was worried about what the kook was going to do.

His pursuer followed him to his eventual stopping point, the place where he felt safe and able to defend against possible further aggression that he suspected might be violent, and committed a second incident of misdemeanor assault by yelling at him, and went a bit farther than just calling him a jerk.

Two misdemeanor crimes and the police wouldn't be the one filing the charges, in cases of assault, the victim of this (whatever we would call this incident of trailing a driver for several miles, then confronting him and yelling at him) is the one who decides whether to file charges. Maybe they would eventually be dismissed by authorities as being frivolous.

The problem is that we don't know what this guy's pathology was. He obviously has a couple of stripped bolts or he wouldn't have pursued another driver for quite a distance, just to yell at him for driving like a jerk. Most people just throw the bird.

only a couple of months ago, a man in my dear, quiet little town chased another man down, who then stopped on a highway. the pursuer raced to the car and gave him the gun right in front of his two children. the guy died in his car right there with two screaming children in the back seat.

Everyone here can give examples of incidents just as simple as this that ended badly, but also thousands of these incidents that did nothing but scare the hell out of people.

Playing devil's advocate is fine, I am also a devil's advocate, but we aren't on the same page here. There have even been incidents involving a police officer who was a serial rapist and murderer who would pursue women at a certain location along a highway and force them off into a cul de sac off of that highway.

A young lady who worked for me was once followed through a country area and turned three times before the guy backed away. As she told the story about this guy who drove a lime green pickup, I remembered that there was a murder suspect still at large who drove a similar colored pickup, very few of that hideous green were made.

It's not always serial killers or other violent criminals, sometimes it's a jealous husband, or just a kid with too much time on his hands who wants to wind someone up.

I knew a man who was ordinarily a really smart and stable guy, but he had anger problems and could hold a grudge. A person driving a mercury sideswiped him and left the scene, and forty years later when he told me why he still hated everyone who drove a mercury, the rage and bitterness was still there.

There's only one person who knows what is going on when these things happen, it's the guy who is following. It is stupid to presume that anyone who does this is intending violence but it happens, and to err on the side of safety is the proper thing to do.

That is the point of my posts, once again, we don't know what this guy's mental pathology is, but we do know that he's behaving improperly and in a way that a proper person wouldn't.

I presume that everyone has the sense to know when it is a genuine concern, a concern that merits police intervention. Do all of the normal things to get out of it, but when it appears to be needed, it may save a life, or lives.

Something that has never been brought up. Whoever other driver was, he wasn't afraid at all, was he? He followed a "jerk" all over god's earth and confronted him in a parking lot. Was he so stupid that he dismissed the possibility that his 'target' might be the crazy one, the one who would come out of his car with a bat? Or was he the crazy one, the one who had a gun tucked under his leg, ready and waiting to put an end to the jerk who pissed him off?

It bears repeating, over and over again, we do know that the guy was impaired in some way. That wasn't a thing that a person does if he has normal thought processes going.

We don't, however, know what his actual pathology is. Was he taking substances? Was he just someone with cowboy bob fantasies, who wanted to be the town sheriff? Was the guy someone who just hated people who drove mercuries? Or was he someone with paranoid schizophrenia, who had some sort of crazy, maybe violent monolog going through his head? Not every mumbling street person is violent, but the few that are crazy are why we carry guns, and why we should err on the side of safety. It's not about someone who wants to be hall monitor, it's about the kooks who want to control and modify someone else's behavior, and may or may not be friendly about it.

This sort of thing reminds me of the old woman who lived a few houses to the east of me. she didn't like my casual attitude to lawn maintenance. She would come to my house and stand in the street and glare at my home. she would come and pull weeds and throw them onto my porch. she went to the homes of my neighbors and complained. Every time my wife found a stack of weeds thrown on my front porch, she was ready to call the police. Myself, I considered it and just assumed that she was a bitter old maid who really hated beautiful young couples, and believed that the happy couple down the road should be just like she was. Just substitute the dandelions for turning without using a signal.
 
Last I knew, driving down the road and talking to someone wasn't against the law. The guy may have been a complete jerk, but he broke no laws from what I read. Please explain in detail how and what laws he violated, what the threat exactly was.

That's what the problem is. this wasn't driving down the road and talking to someone.
 
Police respond to and investigate suspicious circumstances each and every day ..all day and all night long. I would suspect that an unknown person following me, probably has hostile intent. That means contacting me for the purpose of a harassing confrontation( verbal or physical), assault, robbery, car jacking, property damage or similar crime involving the potential for danger. No matter what it is or isn't, I do not think it unreasonable for the POLICE to investigate the suspicious activity and determine for themselves what is afoot. If nothing else, they have identified the person and his behavior for future reference. They have stopped the person from potentially carrying out a crime against me. They have mitigated the possibility that we may have a conflict in a public venue and it also negates the potential that I need respond defensively. The guy may be stalking me, my vehicle because my wife drives it ( who knows).. at least we would have him on paper should these events continue.

Preventing a confrontation protects me, him as well as the public. Its just common sense to avoid it and put a stop to it. If it turns out to be nothing... so be it.


The idea that police only respond to active crimes being committed is a silly notion. The suggestion that it may be a waste of resources to notify the police that you are currently being followed/pursued is equally as silly. Lastly, if the suggestion is that you should not call the police if you a Man and not currently under attack.. that sounds like really bad advise.
 
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Briandg; Again, where is the imminent threat?? He followed him and chewed him out pertaining to his driving. Rude and anti social? Yes, absolutely. Illegal?? Nope. Sorry, you have ZERO probable cause. A DA would throw the case out and immediately call your Chief and the State LEO certification board. Without probable cause, the arrest itself would be illegal.
Right, wrong or indifferent... he broke no laws. If you were an officer and you arrested the "jerk", as written, you would likely end up stripped of your badge, without a job and involved in civil litigation for false arrest. A defense Attorney would LOVE for you to arrest his or her client as you described, especially if you own property or have a 401K plan!! There is the little thing you forgot about... its know as the Constitution.
Suppose the "jerk" were you. The guy cut you off and you, again right, wrong or indifferent, angry and having a bad day, you followed him to a store to tell him how close he came to causing an accident. And, you wanted to get his license plate number, in case he was drunk. Perhaps you also thought he was intoxicated, after all, he almost hit you. And yet HE calls the police, who meet up with you at the store. Would you expect to be arrested, charged and imprisoned for following him and telling him to be more careful, as well as verifying that he wasn't intoxicated? No threats, no weapons, and in your mind, HE was at fault for almost hitting you. But, there YOU sit on the steel bench, staring at the concrete wondering when you get to see a Judge. Saturday night... they serve you beans. Lovely.
Same situation, in reverse. Not funny is it? That's why we have a Constitution... to protect our rights. No probable cause equals no arrest.
 
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My friend.. Police can investigate based on reasonable suspicion. RS is considered by most people to be a lower standard than Probable Cause which itself is already a low standard. I do not need PC of an imminent threat to call the police or to take reasonably mitigating action to avoid a circumstance that is causing me concern regarding what I see as a potential prelude to a crime. Nobody said arrest the person or charge them with a crime or threaten them with violence. I said investigate the circumstance … the suspicion surrounding an unknown person following another is arguably universal.

Suppose the "jerk" were you. The guy cut you off and you, again right, wrong or indifferent, angry and having a bad day, you followed him to a store to tell him how close he came to causing an accident. And, you wanted to get his license plate number, in case he was drunk. Perhaps you also thought he was intoxicated, after all, he almost hit you. And yet HE calls the police, who meet up with you at the store. Would you expect to be arrested, charged and imprisoned for following him and telling him to be more careful, as well as verifying that he wasn't intoxicated?

I think that maybe you did not read my post

I said investigate.. that's means you identify what is happening, who is involved, the nature of the circumstances and make some determination based on evidence ( if any). Nobody said toss em in jail based on spidey sense.
 
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Fireforged.... sorry, I should have clarified, I was replying to Briandg. Not you... Lol! I am well aware of RS and PC... I was replying to his most recent post on page 1 where he stated the individual had broken the law 2X.
 
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Sorry Bro.. It makes complete sense now.

Now that I see your comment within the proper context, I tend to agree with your general point. Being arrested for simply following someone (once) with no other compounding elements would seem rather harsh. I wont say that the law doesn't exist somewhere but I would be skeptical.
 
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Briandg; Again, where is the imminent threat?? He followed him and chewed him out pertaining to his driving. Rude and anti social? Yes, absolutely. Illegal?? Nope. Sorry, you have ZERO probable cause. A DA would throw the case out and immediately call your Chief and the State LEO certification board. Without probable cause, the arrest itself would be illegal.

I see this now. You're doing nothing but yanking my chain. I've wasted a whole lot of time on you, I'm not going to waste another second explaining to you. All you care about is arguing with me for the sake of winding me up.
 
No Sir. Not yanking your chain. I'm trying to understand how you possibly think the "jerk" in the aforementioned scenario violated a law, and explain the other side of the issue as it seems like there is a tendency for some to blame LEO's for "not doing their job", etc., when in reality there was no violation of law. There is RUDE behavior and then there is ILLEGAL behavior. There is a distinct difference.
 
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One night late in the evening I driving home. I live out by the country and was going down an old two lane farm to market road. I passed another pickup and I noticed in my rearview mirror them turning around. They came up on me at a high rate of speed and then whipped it over on me forcing me off the road. My front end hit a barbwire fence. They (3 men) piled out of the truck mad and yelling at me in broken spanish (Sorry for you politically correct folks, just telling a story, nothing racist about it.). From what I gathered the driver was angry because he felt I blinded him. The driver headed for my door, the outside passenger headed for my passenger door, and their middle passenger pulled the bench seat forward and was pulling something out from behind the seat. I opened my door and stood up with a 1911 pointed at the driver. He started yelling at his friends and I could not believe how their courage vanished so quickly. We're sorry sir, thank you sir, have a nice evening sir, we are so sorry sir for what we did, never again sir, etc. etc. etc. I drove home and called the county sheriff's office to tell them what had occurred and to tell them I pulled a pistol. The shift Lieutenant laughed at the story and pretty much said, " Well I bet they won't do that again."
 
The cell phone camera and dash cam, as well as body cams and helmet cams are a wonderful thing.

Unless they get into the hands of people with no scruples, a you tube account, and a reason to lie.

A month or two ago, a local police officer in one of the smaller suburban towns stopped to talk to a young black kid, 16 years old. No ticket issued, a conversation, and a warning that he is in a small town and that he needs to drive more carefully.

His mother went ballistic on FB. Fortunately, every officer for that dept has body cam, and the PD posted the entire thing to facebook the next day.

My phone has no camera, but I surely would like to have a front yard surveillance and dash cam. when something like this goes badly, there's less of a need to pray for honest and reliable witnesses.
 
One night late in the evening I driving home. I live out by the country and was going down an old two lane farm to market road. I passed another pickup and I noticed in my rearview mirror them turning around. They came up on me at a high rate of speed and then whipped it over on me forcing me off the road. My front end hit a barbwire fence. They (3 men) piled out of the truck mad and yelling at me in broken spanish (Sorry for you politically correct folks, just telling a story, nothing racist about it.). From what I gathered the driver was angry because he felt I blinded him. The driver headed for my door, the outside passenger headed for my passenger door, and their middle passenger pulled the bench seat forward and was pulling something out from behind the seat. I opened my door and stood up with a 1911 pointed at the driver. He started yelling at his friends and I could not believe how their courage vanished so quickly. We're sorry sir, thank you sir, have a nice evening sir, we are so sorry sir for what we did, never again sir, etc. etc. etc. I drove home and called the county sheriff's office to tell them what had occurred and to tell them I pulled a pistol. The shift Lieutenant laughed at the story and pretty much said, " Well I bet they won't do that again."

All right. That is scary right there. And I am very glad that you producing a handgun resolved the situation very effectively. The presence of the gun saved you and quite possibly the lives of these guys too.

Because if I were in that situation and I did not have a firearm on me, and upon noticing the events highlighted in red happening right before my eyes, I really think that I would have flipped the switch right into full CQC mode. The only thought that would be going through my head would be: "So that's it...I will probably never see my mother, father, or sweetheart again". And with that, it will be kill or be killed. Either two things are going to happen:

1: I deploy one of my fighting knives and go right for the driver. Since he is almost at my own driver-side door, it will be a quick and decisive matter. A massive thrust at the neck with C-pattern twist and take him out right then and there, and immediately go for the same on the second perp entering my passenger-side door. The third one is quite possibly trying to get a gun from that truck? Whatever it is, my only option then would be to do a prison-yard rush on him and try to take him down too...And all the while praying that if he shoots, I don't get hit. OR:

2: Gun the accelerator all the way to the floor and ram the front vehicle as hard as possible. That would probably keep the third perp from getting to his gun and the collision might even be enough to put him out of action. And THEN deal with the other two using the knife. Either option, it is going to be a brutal, bloody and barbaric affair. If I want to make it out of there alive, then there seems to be no other options once two starts to advance on me and a third one is possibly going for a weapon.

And it really does not help that my mind is wired in a way since very young that I am only able to see the worst things that can happen in any situation. To this day I am still not sure if this is a blessing or a curse, but I think it saved my ass multiple times in the past. Felt a lump in my throat one day at work when I was trying to swallow a cup of water. Lump remained there for several days. But as soon as I felt it, the only thought in my mind was "cancer", and as soon as I got out of work, went for an appointment with my doctor. Turned out to be nothing. And lump feeling went away after a few more days. But hell no, I ain't risking it. That is just one incident.

In this case, the appearance of the gun was really a saving grace for all parties involved. It deescalated the situation and prevented actual blood from being spilled.
 
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No Sir. Not yanking your chain. I'm trying to understand how you possibly think the "jerk" in the aforementioned scenario violated a law, and explain the other side of the issue as it seems like there is a tendency for some to blame LEO's for "not doing their job", etc., when in reality there was no violation of law. There is RUDE behavior and then there is ILLEGAL behavior. There is a distinct difference.

I think that the observation and inquiry in this post is very reasonable. This thread seems full of emotional rhetoric, innuendo and unqualified buzz words. Shurshot asked for a very simple outlining of probable cause relating to a specific violation of TN law... not drama. Nobody is claiming to be an expert here and I dont think anyone is trying to compile or offer legal advice, we are just some guys talking about what we happen to think about it. I expect he(Shurshot) intends to debate you on the technical merits not emotion. That seems fair

I have not claimed that there was any specific violation of the law and I will not speak to anything relating to TN law. Speaking generally, if some stranger starts following me in any sort of determined manner, I will report the suspicious behavior to police. This angry guy acted suspiciously and ultimately offered some MINOR PROTEST regarding the driving habits of the OP. I wont say that "Hollering" briefly in public is not a minor breach of the law, it may certainly be. Most people and most LEOs would probably require the application of good ole common sense when considering whether or not its a actionable crime. Calling it Stalking or Assault without qualifying it specifically on the elements seems rather dramatic. It might be Stalking.. it might be Assault but I would like to see it outlined for the purpose of discussion. This guy Protested, was a little bit rude and left without further incident. Now that we have the luxury of being able to consider this event through to its natural conclusion. Whats the big deal?
 
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I agree you did the right thing, though calling the police or driving to the station couldn't have hurt.

I generally write down a plate number, car, and description of the driver on a business card if I get the long honk, finger, or F#*K you from aggressive drivers.

If they leave me alone after a couple of blocks I toss the card in my center console and hold on to it for a week or so, should anything happen to my vehicle (I park on the street in a city so my car could be easily recognized by the driver should they pass by).

Luckily, haven't had any confrontations outside of the vehicle, but it gives me the peace of mind to have their information readily available should anything go wrong.
 
Fire forged;

Tennessee law.

Assault (Simple Assault): Assault is defined as either intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causing bodily injury to another; or, intentionally or knowingly causing another to reasonably fear imminent bodily harm. It is charged as a misdemeanor.

This is as clear as humanly possible. It is absolutely clear that he deliberately harrassed the OP. The OP did, in fact, believe that it was a dangerous situation. laws were broken.

This is clearly a situation where calling the police and asking for intervention is appropriate, since there is clearly a violation of the law, and there is a concern about violence.

Concerning whether or not the follower should be arrested, that is completely, totally irrelevant to the simple assault violation. Any further escalation would be violation of other, more specific laws.

Police intervention to prevent possibly dangerous escalation of this illegal harassment as stated would have been entirely appropriate and justified by the above quoted law.

There is is. It is simple and clear. A crime was committed with a potential for dangerous escalation.

There is no argument that can change the letter of the law, or the facts reported by the OP.
 
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It would have escalated if he had encountered a different person

Saying that it [would] have escalated is a very absolute statement... how do you know it would have?

A law was broken.

which one?



There was an immediate threat

Did he ball his fist? Verbally threaten to harm him? Get into his personal space? Did he have a weapon? Was he acting alone? Did he block his path? Cut off escape? Suddenly close the distance? Did he forecast by other physical action some sort of intent to attack him? The OP walked off and the angry guy let him and did not pursue him further. The OP didn't say how close the man got which lead me to believe that he didn't get dangerously close(fighting close).

I am just curious how you are qualifying the "reasonable" impression of imminent bodily harm? Which seems to be the hypothetical standard that you quoted earlier.

Is a person verbally protesting your behavior a suggestion of imminent bodily harm? Would a reasonable and prudent person think that? I am not so sure

A hostile verbal protest along with unusually close proximity might be a problem.. physical motions which are normally seen as pre-attack indicators are certainly a problem .. stance, verbalizing the threat, fists clenched, closing the distance, posture, accomplices with similar attitude (MOB) is a problem. A guy telling you that your driving sucks and basically expressing his displeasure ( from a relatively safe distance) is not really forecasting violence. There is certainly a potential and may certainly be concerning but someone please outline the "reasonable" indication that harm is IMMINENT. I think that some people are using possible, potential and imminent as the same thing.

again, I am not saying that its not.. I want to understand. Absent any of the indicators that I outlined above, I would not likely have felt that I was about to be harmed. Others may feel different
 
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As a police officer, I would advise that you call the police any time you reasonably determine somebody is following you. Don't worry about non emergency, just call 911, the call is going to get dispatched the same way regardless and it saves you some time.

Whether or not there is reasonable suspicion or probable cause is not your concern, your safety is. You pay your taxes which pay for public safety and you are entitled to assistance if you feel you are in some sort of danger.

I can tell you that in my state, there would be more than enough reasonable suspicion to make a traffic stop on a vehicle that was following somebody for the purpose of conducting an investigation. Especially if I actually located the described vehicle still following the victim, since there would be several minutes between the time the call was made to when I arrived, and thus plenty of opportunities for the suspect to stop following the victim. Law violations to be investigated would include disorderly conduct, stalking, aggressive driving, and assault.

Road rage is a well documented occurrence and it is commonly known by law enforcement that it can culminate in serious violent felonies. Most law enforcement officers would rather respond before that occurs than clean up afterward. And yes, I would call this road rage.

Is it likely that the police would find that probable cause existed to arrest somebody? Assuming it was somebody being a jerk. . . more than likely not, especially assuming the person being followed had never stopped to allow a confrontation to take place. The police will more than likely educate the other driver and send them on their way. However, there could be other circumstances. The driver could be intoxicated, they could have warrants, they could have drugs, etc. But again, that's not your concern.

To that end, my personal advice would be not to stop at all until police arrived, or to drive to the nearest station if you knew where it was while you were on the phone. Stay aware as you are driving and make sure you keep your options open. Don't allow yourself to get boxed in or be put in a situation where you couldn't immediately drive away if the other driver exits their vehicle.
 
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