Richmond Man Killed With Own Gun While Open Carrying

I support the right to open carry, but I don't recommend the practice of open carry, and I don't open carry except in a hiking or hunting environment.
 
To quote Col Jeff Cooper: Condition White - Unaware and unprepared.
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I submit to you that carrying in an open, non-retention holster without some degree of training in weapons retention, while living in denial that these types of attacks do happen, and without a plan to deal with it is in fact the very definition of Condition White.

Having your head on a swivel does no good if it's simultaneously up your nether regions.

pax
 
Weapon Retention

It begins with situational awareness, having the gun totally concealed in a holster that offers some retention value, and then knowing how to defend the gun in the event of an attempted takeaway (gun retention techniques are based upon martial arts skills).

I don't want to step on anybody's rights but the only experience I have with open carry are the employees of a few gun emporiums here in the northeast. They often seemed more interested in strutting around with their fancy handguns than anything else.

As this incident demonstrates, open carry can have some minor drawbacks, such as losing your gun and your life to a determined criminal. I will always carry concealed, even if I move to an open carry state. I'm getting older, can no longer wrestle with men half my age and the element of surprise becomes more important in my bag of defensive tricks as the years tick away. I'm now a bit overweight, have white hair and I may look like an easy mark to a street thug. No point in laying all my cards on the table. They may attack the lamb they perceive but the wolf is wearing a disguise.
 
It has been said that if there is somewhere you would not go without a gun, you certainly should not go there with one. There are parts of Minneapolis where I am the minority and in particular a gas station that is a known gang hangout. There have been numerous shootings, fights, and one or two deaths there. I purchase my gas and pop elsewhere.

Anytime I stop and plan leave my vehicle, I assess the behavior, demeanor, and clothing styles of the locals. If anyone is behaving badly or giving me the stink eye, I can always go somewhere else to go pee, gas up, or buy a soda pop. If I don't like the looks of anyone present, I simply continue on, and I have done so more than once. Most two legged predators have warning signs that are easily noted if you are paying attention.

If you fail to pay attention (condition white), you risk becoming a victim whether you are armed or not.

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I hate to say "I told you so," but I told you so. This has always been one of my main objections to the practice of open carry: most of the people doing it do not pursue anything beyond the most rudimentary training, and they do not maintain the appropriate equipment or situational awareness.

Not only was Mr. Tyler killed, it appears that his gun was used to kill a second person a couple of hours later.
 
Tyler, 48, had a concealed-carry permit, but his handgun was plainly visible that night in his holster, Johnson said.

Sounds like Mr. Tyler used poor judgement all around. Unfortunately, it cost him his life.
 
My wife and I both have a Concealed Handgun License but we support Open Carry only so that we are not committing a crime if the handgun is accidentally exposed for a brief moment.

I think it goes without saying that the tiny amount of draw time advantage that open carry provides is far outweighed by the disadvantage of bad guys having immediate access to our weapons.
 
Just because someone is "paying attention" doesnt mean that they suddenly have jedi precognition or spidey sense. If you are paying attn, you may be able to determine that an attack is underway earlier than someone who is not paying attention but it doesnt mean you will "always" see it comming or always avoid it. I am not trying to turn this into a oc vs cc thread but there is certainly some merit to the debate.
 
I really don't know what this says because information on this case is incomplete and data considering the pros and cons of open carry are non existent. It definitely appears he was killed with his own gun although the circumstances are a blurry but this is the first and only case I can recall where a civilian has had this happen and I've never seen a case where someone was shot during a robbery off hand because he was open carrying.

The main thing we don't know is what possible effects OC can have in prevention. It's impossible to track. Guys walks into gas station to rob and sees an employee or customer open carrying and walks away. Mugger sees potential victim OC'ing and deside to hunt in greener pastures. How would you track those? Does it happen? I'm sure it could but I'm not sure how often and opponents to open carry don't know that it doesn't.

All I know a person with a gun is less likely to be a victim regardless of his carry preferences.

LK
 
LK,

You mean like this? http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/147404-oc-may-have-prevented-crime-leo-encounter.html

Or this? http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Or do you mean, like this story from Massad Ayoob in The Gun Digest Book of Concealed Carry?

Ayoob in Gun Digest book said:
In Arizona, a friend and I were in a convenience store between Prescott and Paulden on the way to Gunsite Training Center. My friend came from a state that then had no provision for private citiens to carry a handgun in any fashion, and was luxuriating in his ability under Arizona law to carry his custom Colt 45 auto in an exposed holster. I was a few steps away when I saw a man walk in, do a double take when he spotted the gun, and deliver a "target stare" to the loaded pistol. Amost in exaggerated pantomime, he mugged an expression of outrage and pointed at the pistol, making eye contact with others in the store that indicated his outrage. And then, that man moved in behind my friend, reaching out for the holstered pistol.

I stepped between them, glaring at the interloper. He stopped, looked at me, obviously decided that whatever was going to happen wasn't worth it, and walked away with an angry look on his face. I don't think he was going to try to shoot anyone with my friend's gun, but he was obviously going to grab it and do some show-off thing, which coulod have led to a struggle for a loaded gun in a crowded convenience store, with an obviously high potential for tragedy.
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Ayoob then goes on to relate a personal situation where a "very aggressive panhandler" spotted Ayoob's own weapon. The sight "stopped him in his tracks" and he "turned around and walked away."

My point? This stuff happens. Both sides of this discussion are completely correct:

  • Open carry does deter a certain number of violent crimes, and
  • Open carry does provoke a certain number of gun-grabs and stupid or violent behavior from bystanders and criminals.

If you open carry and are not physically equipped to deal with those gun grabs, you're being very foolish.

If you make fun of people who open carry because you think it cannot possibly prevent some crimes, you're also being very foolish.

The guy who open carries without training, without proper equipment, and without admitting that he may someday need his handgun retention skills? That guy is putting himself and everyone around him at risk.

The other guy, the one who just makes fun of open carry, he's wrong -- but his wrongness isn't endangering a soul.

pax
 
OC has both advantages and disadvantages, as Pax has just pointed out.

People constantly talk about the "element of surprise" like it's a defensive advantage. It's not. When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense. The defensive advantage of CC, such as it is, is that you blend in with all the other potential victims.

Carry on! :D
 
OC has both advantages and disadvantages, as Pax has just pointed out.

People constantly talk about the "element of surprise" like it's a defensive advantage. It's not. When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense. The defensive advantage of CC, such as it is, is that you blend in with all the other potential victims.

Carry on!
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:confused:
 
When you turn the tables on an attacker, you have gone on offense
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Insofar as a person is legally defending himself against a threat, one is entitled to pursue that defense until the threat is no longer present. The element of surprise can allow for a more effective defense. It is not necessarily an offensive tactic. In this case, the deceased might not be so if he'd had a second gun unknownst to his attacker.
 
Secret_Agent_Man said:
Insofar as a person is legally defending himself against a threat, one is entitled to pursue that defense until the threat is no longer present. The element of surprise can allow for a more effective defense. It is not necessarily an offensive tactic. In this case, the deceased might not be so if he'd had a second gun unknownst to his attacker.
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Surprise seems to me, gone when you have to take the time to reach for the weapon. Whether it's moving clothing, unzipping, or reaching in a pocket. Sure, if they want your wallet and your gun is back there you can go for it, but will two in the chest stop him from pulling the trigger?

I hate to use it, but the OODA loop applies here.

Surprise: I personally believe there's a difference between a "surprise" attack and a "sudden" attack. Does an armed robber or mugger really NOT expect you to want to fight back? Well, if he didn't, he may not be armed. Surprise is what the hunter wants. We as the defenders want a sudden attack. You need not be carrying concealed for this.

Rex_Lee: I have no military experience, so my opinion has little bearing. For military use, a surprise attack is on an unsuspecting enemy. Usually while they are sleeping, regrouping, or on the move. A sudden attack would be against an opponent who is up in arms already, while at any disadvantage, reloading, retreating, or directed elsewhere. Such as by a distraction. I may be splitting hairs, especially as any knowledge I have of warfare is from old Japanese and Chinese texts...
 
This is why open carry is for Texas backyard BBQs.
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I guess if open carry were legal in Texas it would be. Since it is not.... it would be nice if people knew that.

I think pax pretty much summed it up well as usual. A visible gun may be a deterrent but it is not some kind of force field that prevents people from trying to grab it.
 
Related to Open Carry

As is often the case, gun store owners and employees open carry. There was a gunshop in the Bronx, New York, where the store owner was open carrying. This happened perhaps 25 years ago. His store was targeted by robbers in order to obtain handguns for their criminal needs. They entered the store with guns blazing, killing the proprietor before he knew he was in a gunbattle. As the proprietor had instant access to a loaded handgun, the robbers adjusted their tactics accordingly.

Open carry may be practical while hunting but in my opinion, it's a form of exhibitionism when done in public. Try as you might, no one can stay in Condition Yellow, all the time, without interruption. Open carry should only be done by people fortunate enough to have a third eye in the back of their heads. And yes, the street-savvy thugs, with long rap sheets, in the big cities will have you disarmed and begging for your life in short order.
 
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