You can duplicate 357 Magnum ballistics with a 124/5 grain bullet if you select the right gunpowder.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-powders-for-the-38-super/99160
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RIA 1911 in 38 super...pros or cons?
- Thread starter crowtalks
- Start date
You can duplicate 357 Magnum ballistics with a 124/5 grain bullet if you select the right gunpowder.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/super-powders-for-the-38-super/99160
A little history of the .38 Super...
Colt responded by introducing the Colt Super .38, a 1911 chambered for an uploaded .38 ACP cartridge that became know as the .38 Super.
I'm not sure when the higher velocity loading became known as the .38 Super, but Peters was using that description by 1935 or 1936.
Remington was using the term .38 Super by 1933, but with this caveat -- Adapted to all .38 caliber Colt Automatic Pistols.
That makes me think that these were not high velocity rounds because even back then those rounds loaded to .38 Super levels would play hell on the Colt 1900.
Colt introduced the Super .38 Colt Automatic Pistol in December 1928 in an ad in the American Rifleman. It was chambered for the .38 Automatic. The advertised speed of the .38 Auto in Colt's ad was a 130 grain bullet at 1,190 fps. Colt's 1929 catalog shows the .38 Automatic as having an "exceptionally high velocity of about 1,200 foot seconds."
Douglas Sheldon in his book "Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971" notes that there was no new cartridge introduced at that time, it was just the same old .38 Auto that had been around since 1900. Sheldon also notes that the original .38 Auto specification was at 1,260 fps from the Model 1900's 6" barrel.
As noted, the ballistics were increased around 1932/1933. The 1933 catalog ballistics of Remington's Arms Company's .38 Super ACP was a 130 grain bullet at 1,300 fps from a 5" barrel.
Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN.
Edited to add a resource for this information from an archived web page from an old website 38super.net.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170716064320/http://www.38super.net/Pages/History.html
Last edited:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
.38 Super is an interesting anomaly. It is essentially a .38 ACP Magnum but, unlike .22 Magnum, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum, the case dimensions of the parent cartridge weren't increased. However, the pressure was increased, rather significantly. The "new" cartridge (actually, new loading of the old cartridge) came to be called .38 Super because it was developed for the Colt Super .38 version of the 1911.
Eventually, the industry took to calling the cartridge ".38 Super" in order to differentiate it from the older .38 ACP, so that people with semi-autos older than 1911s would know not to shoot the newer, more powerful round in their older pistols.
So .38 Super is basically .38 ACP +P. Nobody that I am aware of makes a .38 ACP +P (in fact, it difficult to find any .38 ACP ammo at all today). Most, if not all, commercial ammo companies use .38 Super +P on the headstamps and on the packages for their .38 Super ammo -- but they don't offer any .38 Super ammo that's NOT +P
Eventually, the industry took to calling the cartridge ".38 Super" in order to differentiate it from the older .38 ACP, so that people with semi-autos older than 1911s would know not to shoot the newer, more powerful round in their older pistols.
So .38 Super is basically .38 ACP +P. Nobody that I am aware of makes a .38 ACP +P (in fact, it difficult to find any .38 ACP ammo at all today). Most, if not all, commercial ammo companies use .38 Super +P on the headstamps and on the packages for their .38 Super ammo -- but they don't offer any .38 Super ammo that's NOT +P
So .38 Super is basically .38 ACP +P. Nobody that I am aware of makes a .38 ACP +P (in fact, it difficult to find any .38 ACP ammo at all today). Most, if not all, commercial ammo companies use .38 Super +P on the headstamps and on the packages for their .38 Super ammo -- but they don't offer any .38 Super ammo that's NOT +P
That's because, officially in the USA, .38 Super without the +P does not exist. SAAMI only recognizes two cartridges; the .38 Automatic and the .38 Super Automatic +P.
So .38 Super is basically .38 ACP +P. Nobody that I am aware of makes a .38 ACP +P (in fact, it difficult to find any .38 ACP ammo at all today). Most, if not all, commercial ammo companies use .38 Super +P on the headstamps and on the packages for their .38 Super ammo -- but they don't offer any .38 Super ammo that's NOT +P
Another interesting twist, is that .38 ACP was originally loaded very close to .38 Super ballistics, but it was recognized, even then, that the round was too hot for the Colt "parallel ruler" pistols, and downloaded.
bamaranger
New member
article
I remember a magazine article, likely in the Rifleman, that discussed the Super and It's history. If I recall correctly, the .357 beat it into the field by a short period of time, to be more commonly used by LE in the auto-bandit era. S&W gave Hoover a very early magnum as a marketing gimmick.
Still the Super.. .was in use .by and against LE. Two FBI agents,both killed in a shootout w/ one of the big criminal names, were both armed with Supers, I think. Another agent was killed with a full auto 1911 in ..38 Super in another shootout as well. The sheet metal in auto bodies of the time defeated pistol rounds apparently quite well, even from a Thompson sub gun. Note the effective use of a BAR, and Rem Model 8's, in the Bonnie and Clyde ambush.
I remember a magazine article, likely in the Rifleman, that discussed the Super and It's history. If I recall correctly, the .357 beat it into the field by a short period of time, to be more commonly used by LE in the auto-bandit era. S&W gave Hoover a very early magnum as a marketing gimmick.
Still the Super.. .was in use .by and against LE. Two FBI agents,both killed in a shootout w/ one of the big criminal names, were both armed with Supers, I think. Another agent was killed with a full auto 1911 in ..38 Super in another shootout as well. The sheet metal in auto bodies of the time defeated pistol rounds apparently quite well, even from a Thompson sub gun. Note the effective use of a BAR, and Rem Model 8's, in the Bonnie and Clyde ambush.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Douglas Sheldon in his book "Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971" notes that there was no new cartridge introduced at that time, it was just the same old .38 Auto that had been around since 1900. Sheldon also notes that the original .38 Auto specification was at 1,260 fps from the Model 1900's 6" barrel.
As noted, the ballistics were increased around 1932/1933. The 1933 catalog ballistics of Remington's Arms Company's .38 Super ACP was a 130 grain bullet at 1,300 fps from a 5" barrel. "
Sweet. I wasn't sure exactly when the uploaded cartridge was introduced, but I was in the ball park based on my reading of the various ammo maker catalogs.
As noted, the ballistics were increased around 1932/1933. The 1933 catalog ballistics of Remington's Arms Company's .38 Super ACP was a 130 grain bullet at 1,300 fps from a 5" barrel. "
Sweet. I wasn't sure exactly when the uploaded cartridge was introduced, but I was in the ball park based on my reading of the various ammo maker catalogs.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I remember a magazine article, likely in the Rifleman, that discussed the Super and It's history. If I recall correctly, the .357 beat it into the field by a short period of time, to be more commonly used by LE in the auto-bandit era. S&W gave Hoover a very early magnum as a marketing gimmick. "
I'm not so sure that the .357 Magnum beat the .38 Super to market, but it appears that it was a pretty close thing, but all of the history points to the .38 Super uploaded cartridge hitting the market a year or two before the .357 Magnum.
When police began calling for more powerful cartridges to deal with car bodies, S&W responded with the .38/44 HD N-frame revolver and the uploaded .38 Special cartridge, essentially the first .38 Special +P.
Remington first started carry the uploaded .38/44 ammo sometime between 1931 and 1932 (it wasn't in the 1931 price list, but it is in the 1932 list). Remington also cataloged the .38 Colt Special Hi-Speed cartridge at the same time (the same thing as the .38/44 S&W cartridge, just named differently).
In 1929 Remington was cataloging the .38 ACP round, but in 1930 the .38 ACP round disappears from the catalogs and is replaced with the .38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol round.
Given what we know about the introduction of the Model 1911 Super .38, it's pretty evident that this is just a simple name change at this point.
In the 1933 Catalog, Remington adds the caveat (as I noted above) that the .38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge was adapted to all .38 caliber Colt Automatic Pistols.
In the 1935 catalog there's still no indication of a specifically uploaded .38 Super cartridge (uploaded from the .38 ACP round), but it does give a muzzle velocity of 1,300 FPS for the two versions of the round -- FMJ and hollow point.
So, it is a little beefier than the traditional .38 ACP round, but even so it's apparently still considered to be OK for use in the older Model 1900 Colts. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with for why the .38 ACP round disappeared from the Remington catalog and was replaced with the .38 Super round.
I've not had a chance to really go through all of the other catalogs from other manufactures, but in 1936 Western still was showing the .38 Automatic round and nothing else.
In 1932 Peters was showing .38 Special high velocity rounds, but only .38 ACP.
That changed by 1936 when Peters was offering .38 Super Automatic cartridges in nickle cases (their way, apparently, of designating high velocity rounds).
Interesting enough, and going back to the original section that I quoted in, the 1936 catalog is also the first Peters catalog to carry the .357 Magnum cartridge.
I'm not so sure that the .357 Magnum beat the .38 Super to market, but it appears that it was a pretty close thing, but all of the history points to the .38 Super uploaded cartridge hitting the market a year or two before the .357 Magnum.
When police began calling for more powerful cartridges to deal with car bodies, S&W responded with the .38/44 HD N-frame revolver and the uploaded .38 Special cartridge, essentially the first .38 Special +P.
Remington first started carry the uploaded .38/44 ammo sometime between 1931 and 1932 (it wasn't in the 1931 price list, but it is in the 1932 list). Remington also cataloged the .38 Colt Special Hi-Speed cartridge at the same time (the same thing as the .38/44 S&W cartridge, just named differently).
In 1929 Remington was cataloging the .38 ACP round, but in 1930 the .38 ACP round disappears from the catalogs and is replaced with the .38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol round.
Given what we know about the introduction of the Model 1911 Super .38, it's pretty evident that this is just a simple name change at this point.
In the 1933 Catalog, Remington adds the caveat (as I noted above) that the .38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge was adapted to all .38 caliber Colt Automatic Pistols.
In the 1935 catalog there's still no indication of a specifically uploaded .38 Super cartridge (uploaded from the .38 ACP round), but it does give a muzzle velocity of 1,300 FPS for the two versions of the round -- FMJ and hollow point.
So, it is a little beefier than the traditional .38 ACP round, but even so it's apparently still considered to be OK for use in the older Model 1900 Colts. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with for why the .38 ACP round disappeared from the Remington catalog and was replaced with the .38 Super round.
I've not had a chance to really go through all of the other catalogs from other manufactures, but in 1936 Western still was showing the .38 Automatic round and nothing else.
In 1932 Peters was showing .38 Special high velocity rounds, but only .38 ACP.
That changed by 1936 when Peters was offering .38 Super Automatic cartridges in nickle cases (their way, apparently, of designating high velocity rounds).
Interesting enough, and going back to the original section that I quoted in, the 1936 catalog is also the first Peters catalog to carry the .357 Magnum cartridge.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Interesting...
The 1960 Winchester Western catalog has sort of a belt, suspenders, and roofing staples approach to the cartridge naming issue...
One is labeled the .38 Automatic Super-X (WW trademark) and Super Speed.
Description says 130-gr. FMC (oilproof) (For use only in .38 Colt super and Colt Commander Automatic Pistols).
Ballistics are 1,275 fps with 469 ft lbs of energy.
The second is labeled .38 Automatic.
Description says 130-gr. FMC (oilproof) (For all .38 Automatic Pistols).
Ballistics are listed as 1,040 fps and 312 ft lbs of energy.
The 1960 Winchester Western catalog has sort of a belt, suspenders, and roofing staples approach to the cartridge naming issue...
One is labeled the .38 Automatic Super-X (WW trademark) and Super Speed.
Description says 130-gr. FMC (oilproof) (For use only in .38 Colt super and Colt Commander Automatic Pistols).
Ballistics are 1,275 fps with 469 ft lbs of energy.
The second is labeled .38 Automatic.
Description says 130-gr. FMC (oilproof) (For all .38 Automatic Pistols).
Ballistics are listed as 1,040 fps and 312 ft lbs of energy.
stagpanther
New member
I have a commander in 38 super and worth the extra money over an RIA IMO.
Jim Watson
New member
By 1939 the .38 Auto was cataloged by Remington as a 130 gr bullet at 1050 fps in a 4.5" barrel.
I wonder how much of the decline in velocity was due to the shorter barrel and how much to lighter loads to spare the old guns.
The .38 Super was listed at 1300 fps in a 5" barrel, which is more than SAAMI shows now.
The .45 1905 was advertised as a 200 at 900, down to 870 in 1939 but that on the English ammunition page of Stoegers, not listed by US makers. I wonder how long the parallel ruler gun stood up to that, or if it were an outlandish advertising claim. One collector said he thought it started out as a typo, meant to be 800 fps but perpetrated in an era without consumer chronographs.
In my brief dalliance with the .38, I got a Deal on some .38 Auto brass. I found it weighed a good bit less than .38 Super head stamped cases. Thinner brass for lighter loads. Adequate for me, I just treated the gun as a ten shot .38 Special.
I wonder how much of the decline in velocity was due to the shorter barrel and how much to lighter loads to spare the old guns.
The .38 Super was listed at 1300 fps in a 5" barrel, which is more than SAAMI shows now.
The .45 1905 was advertised as a 200 at 900, down to 870 in 1939 but that on the English ammunition page of Stoegers, not listed by US makers. I wonder how long the parallel ruler gun stood up to that, or if it were an outlandish advertising claim. One collector said he thought it started out as a typo, meant to be 800 fps but perpetrated in an era without consumer chronographs.
In my brief dalliance with the .38, I got a Deal on some .38 Auto brass. I found it weighed a good bit less than .38 Super head stamped cases. Thinner brass for lighter loads. Adequate for me, I just treated the gun as a ten shot .38 Special.
You can also buy 9mm 1911s and convert them with an extra barrel. Kimber 9mm 1911s with ramped barrels will work with the 38 super sig barrels floating around once you get the right link. https://www.cdnnsports.com/1911-38-super-5in-ramped-sts-barrel-sig-sauer.html
Then you can swap between calibers with a barrel and mag change. Bushing will work with both fine.
Then you can swap between calibers with a barrel and mag change. Bushing will work with both fine.
If I could I'd give a thumbs up to Mike Irwin's posts beginning with number 27 that refers to Doug Sheldon's excellent book.
Just to back up a bit on the origins of the 38acp and the 38 Super (same round different loads).
In the late 1890's the U.S. Army began to look into semi-auto pistols to replace their revolvers chambered in 38 Colt. So Colt decided to build a gun to meet this demand. They worked with John Browning on the design.
Browning designed the 38 acp, a semi rimmed cartridge, and built a gun around it. The model 1900 which you can see on the link below.
http://www.coltautos.com/1900.htm
It sent a 130 gr. jacketed bullet about 1100 fps from it's 6" barrel.
It was tested by the Army and several versions were produced as a result of the trials. You can also see the versions at coltautos.com.
The Army was dragging it's heals on switching to a semi (debates were long and numerous) so Colt released commercial versions of the gun.
To make a longer and interesting story short the Army decided that they wanted a bigger caliber than 38. Browning worked up a 41 caliber variant of the gun and had a prototype when the Army decided it wanted a 45. caliber. Browning designed a cartridge for them the 45acp.
Colt and Browning had figured, by this time, that the parallel ruler design was too weak for more powerful loads than the 1100 fps. So the design was further altered, which led to the 1911 in 45acp.
Colt continued to make and sell the parallel link design guns in 38acp. By the 1920's though sales began to drop off. It then occurred to Colt to chamber the gun in the 1911 design. Thus the Colt Super 38 was born in 1928 chambered in 38acp.
The gun was widely marketed in 38acp as a hunting round and defense against dangerous game and as a gun for police (though it was never widely used as a police gun, revolvers ruled there, but it made inroads in the police market which worried S&W). It did sell well as a military round internationally.
Mike Irwin takes it from there as seen above. Eventually both the round (loaded more powerfully) and the guns began to be called the 38 Super.
The 38acp was built as a military round for the first semi the U.S. military adopted. That's it's origins and intent.
It's popularity forced S&W to develop the 38/44 Heavy Duty and later the .357 Magnum.
Just to back up a bit on the origins of the 38acp and the 38 Super (same round different loads).
In the late 1890's the U.S. Army began to look into semi-auto pistols to replace their revolvers chambered in 38 Colt. So Colt decided to build a gun to meet this demand. They worked with John Browning on the design.
Browning designed the 38 acp, a semi rimmed cartridge, and built a gun around it. The model 1900 which you can see on the link below.
http://www.coltautos.com/1900.htm
It sent a 130 gr. jacketed bullet about 1100 fps from it's 6" barrel.
It was tested by the Army and several versions were produced as a result of the trials. You can also see the versions at coltautos.com.
The Army was dragging it's heals on switching to a semi (debates were long and numerous) so Colt released commercial versions of the gun.
To make a longer and interesting story short the Army decided that they wanted a bigger caliber than 38. Browning worked up a 41 caliber variant of the gun and had a prototype when the Army decided it wanted a 45. caliber. Browning designed a cartridge for them the 45acp.
Colt and Browning had figured, by this time, that the parallel ruler design was too weak for more powerful loads than the 1100 fps. So the design was further altered, which led to the 1911 in 45acp.
Colt continued to make and sell the parallel link design guns in 38acp. By the 1920's though sales began to drop off. It then occurred to Colt to chamber the gun in the 1911 design. Thus the Colt Super 38 was born in 1928 chambered in 38acp.
The gun was widely marketed in 38acp as a hunting round and defense against dangerous game and as a gun for police (though it was never widely used as a police gun, revolvers ruled there, but it made inroads in the police market which worried S&W). It did sell well as a military round internationally.
Mike Irwin takes it from there as seen above. Eventually both the round (loaded more powerfully) and the guns began to be called the 38 Super.
The 38acp was built as a military round for the first semi the U.S. military adopted. That's it's origins and intent.
It's popularity forced S&W to develop the 38/44 Heavy Duty and later the .357 Magnum.
Jim Watson
New member
The 38acp was built as a military round for the first semi the U.S. military adopted. That's it's origins and intent.
It's popularity forced S&W to develop the 38/44 Heavy Duty and later the .357 Magnum.
I wouldn't say "adopted." Sam shows 300 1900 .38s and 200 1902s on Army contract, plus 207 1907 .45s. Heck, they bought 1000 trials .30 Lugers.
If the original .38 Autos "forced" S&W to develop higher velocity revolvers, they were awful slow catching on. Now if it meant the Super .38 scared the Heavy Duty and Magnum out of the woodwork, that might be so.
From Jim W:
"I wouldn't say "adopted." Sam shows 300 1900 .38s and 200 1902s on Army contract, plus 207 1907 .45s. Heck, they bought 1000 trials .30 Lugers."
You are correct that the word "adoption" which I used in writing quickly can mislead.
Don't let that get in the way of addressing the key point; the 38acp was designed as a round for the military and the first semi round designed by Colt and Browning for that purpose.
On the Colt 1900 Lisker's site coltauto.com reports :"The Model 1900 was manufactured for three years with a total production of just under 4,300 pistols. Some of the more interesting variations are those that were purchased under contract for the U.S. Army and U.S. Navy."
I could look up exactly how many were sold commercially and bought by the military for testing but that info is available elsewhere and I'm busy.
As a result of the testing the Colt 38 Military was purchased by the Army and Navy for field testing in 1902. Again from Lisker.
" The U.S. Government order 200 of these pistols for testing in 1902. These 200 guns were ordnance inspected, have the early rounded hammer and the “nail file” type front slide serrations. Another large contract was for approximately 800 pistols that were ordered by the Mexican government."
In 1901 the Army bought 2 Luger pistols and ammo for the same. The gun did well and 1,000 of the guns and 9mm ammo for them was ordered for field testing.
Both the 9mm and the 38acp were intended as military rounds and contracts and that was their origin.
I'll get back to the S&W 39/44 and the 357 in a while. Got to do some actual work.
"I wouldn't say "adopted." Sam shows 300 1900 .38s and 200 1902s on Army contract, plus 207 1907 .45s. Heck, they bought 1000 trials .30 Lugers."
You are correct that the word "adoption" which I used in writing quickly can mislead.
Don't let that get in the way of addressing the key point; the 38acp was designed as a round for the military and the first semi round designed by Colt and Browning for that purpose.
On the Colt 1900 Lisker's site coltauto.com reports :"The Model 1900 was manufactured for three years with a total production of just under 4,300 pistols. Some of the more interesting variations are those that were purchased under contract for the U.S. Army and U.S. Navy."
I could look up exactly how many were sold commercially and bought by the military for testing but that info is available elsewhere and I'm busy.
As a result of the testing the Colt 38 Military was purchased by the Army and Navy for field testing in 1902. Again from Lisker.
" The U.S. Government order 200 of these pistols for testing in 1902. These 200 guns were ordnance inspected, have the early rounded hammer and the “nail file” type front slide serrations. Another large contract was for approximately 800 pistols that were ordered by the Mexican government."
In 1901 the Army bought 2 Luger pistols and ammo for the same. The gun did well and 1,000 of the guns and 9mm ammo for them was ordered for field testing.
Both the 9mm and the 38acp were intended as military rounds and contracts and that was their origin.
I'll get back to the S&W 39/44 and the 357 in a while. Got to do some actual work.
Jim Watson
New member
Don't let that get in the way of addressing the key point; the 38acp was designed as a round for the military and the first semi round designed by Colt and Browning for that purpose.
And we might have been better off to issue it, although in a more refined and ergonomic gun. After all, similar ballistics from 9mm P have eventually won out. For that matter I think the 9mm Browning Long is underrated.
And we might have been better off to issue it, although in a more refined and ergonomic gun. After all, similar ballistics from 9mm P have eventually won out. For that matter I think the 9mm Browning Long is underrated.
I haven't had a chance to really play with it, but I am intrigued with the 9mm Browning Long round also.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The 38acp was built as a military round for the first semi the U.S. military adopted. That's it's origins and intent.
It's popularity forced S&W to develop the 38/44 Heavy Duty and later the .357 Magnum."
Mmmmmmmmmmmm..... no.
The S&W .38 Special and the .38 ACP were exact contemporaries, having been developed and introduced to the market in exactly the same time frame.
Both were intended to be candidates for a military cartridge -- both were intended (and were) improvements over the power of the .38 Long Colt.
And both were quickly tossed aside by the US military in favor of what would become the .45 ACP based largely on US experiences in the Philippines and based on the recommendations that came out of the Thompson/LaGarde tests of 1904.
But the simple fact is that the .38 Auto really never quite caught on with either police or the American public, while by World War I the .38 Special was blazing a trail that would make it one of the most used, most popular, and most adopted cartridges ever fielded in the United States.
Likewise, the .38 Auto's popularity did NOT "force" Smith & Wesson to develop either the .38/44 or the .357 Magnum cartridges.
Both the .38/44 and what would become known to be the .38 Super were deveoped at roughly the same time (late 1920s/early 1930s) not in response to each other, but in DIRECT response to calls from police agencies in the United States to provide cartridges with greater power and greater ability to penetrate the heavy sheet steel then in use in car bodies.
NEITHER the .38 Auto OR the .38 Special in their common and classic loadings were particularly good at doing that -- hence the .38/44 HD cartridge and the .38 Super cartridge.
At the same time the ammo companies were also developing a whole series of specially designed metal piercing bullets loaded in standard .38 Special, .38 Auto, .45 ACP, and possibly other cartridges.
Why more powerful cartridges on one hand and standard cartridges with specially designed bullets on the other?
Because this was happening during the depression and not every police force (not many, in fact) could afford to rearm their officers with new, and expensive .38/44 HD revolvers or Colt Super .38 1911 semi-autos.
As for the .357 Magnum, that was developed by men such as Elmer Keith and Phil Sharpe who saw it as a sporting cartridge.
Keith lost interest in what would become the .357 Magnum, leaving Phil Sharpe to promote it heavily to Smith & Wesson, where it was finally rolled out as an extremely expensive and almost custom built handgun, whose expense was FAR beyond the limited Depression means of most police officers/forces in the United States.
It wasn't until after World War II that the .357 Magnum started making anything even remotely resembling inroads with police forces in the United States.
That really got some help when Bill Jordan worked with S&W to develop what would become my candidate for the greatest revolver of all time -- the S&W Combat Magnum, later known as the Model 19.
It's popularity forced S&W to develop the 38/44 Heavy Duty and later the .357 Magnum."
Mmmmmmmmmmmm..... no.
The S&W .38 Special and the .38 ACP were exact contemporaries, having been developed and introduced to the market in exactly the same time frame.
Both were intended to be candidates for a military cartridge -- both were intended (and were) improvements over the power of the .38 Long Colt.
And both were quickly tossed aside by the US military in favor of what would become the .45 ACP based largely on US experiences in the Philippines and based on the recommendations that came out of the Thompson/LaGarde tests of 1904.
But the simple fact is that the .38 Auto really never quite caught on with either police or the American public, while by World War I the .38 Special was blazing a trail that would make it one of the most used, most popular, and most adopted cartridges ever fielded in the United States.
Likewise, the .38 Auto's popularity did NOT "force" Smith & Wesson to develop either the .38/44 or the .357 Magnum cartridges.
Both the .38/44 and what would become known to be the .38 Super were deveoped at roughly the same time (late 1920s/early 1930s) not in response to each other, but in DIRECT response to calls from police agencies in the United States to provide cartridges with greater power and greater ability to penetrate the heavy sheet steel then in use in car bodies.
NEITHER the .38 Auto OR the .38 Special in their common and classic loadings were particularly good at doing that -- hence the .38/44 HD cartridge and the .38 Super cartridge.
At the same time the ammo companies were also developing a whole series of specially designed metal piercing bullets loaded in standard .38 Special, .38 Auto, .45 ACP, and possibly other cartridges.
Why more powerful cartridges on one hand and standard cartridges with specially designed bullets on the other?
Because this was happening during the depression and not every police force (not many, in fact) could afford to rearm their officers with new, and expensive .38/44 HD revolvers or Colt Super .38 1911 semi-autos.
As for the .357 Magnum, that was developed by men such as Elmer Keith and Phil Sharpe who saw it as a sporting cartridge.
Keith lost interest in what would become the .357 Magnum, leaving Phil Sharpe to promote it heavily to Smith & Wesson, where it was finally rolled out as an extremely expensive and almost custom built handgun, whose expense was FAR beyond the limited Depression means of most police officers/forces in the United States.
It wasn't until after World War II that the .357 Magnum started making anything even remotely resembling inroads with police forces in the United States.
That really got some help when Bill Jordan worked with S&W to develop what would become my candidate for the greatest revolver of all time -- the S&W Combat Magnum, later known as the Model 19.
oldbear1950
New member
1911 in 38 super
For the record, I have an original COLT 1911 in 38 super, I purchased when stationed in Kodiak, ALASKA, IN 1976, that was built in 1967. I had it reblued, the frame hard cromed, a bomar barrel and bushing put in, and high profiled fixed sites put on it in 1983. Looks like the old COLT COMBAT ELITE, only in 38 super instead of 45. Shoots great, but unless you reload is mighty expensive to shoot. 38 super ammo used to average 60 bucks a box , and that was before covid. Now is close to 100 bucks a box. If you shop around can get 9 mm for about 30 a box. In order to change from 38 super to 9 mm, all I had to do was buy a new ED BROWN barrel, bushing, and buy new magazines.
And if you reload, the same bullets you load of 9mm can be loaded in 38 super cases.
Is just a thought, and if the price is right buy both the 38 super and the barrel, bushing, and magazines for the 9mm. Just remember to tell who ever you buy the 9mm kit from if you have a commander size, or full size 1911
For the record, I have an original COLT 1911 in 38 super, I purchased when stationed in Kodiak, ALASKA, IN 1976, that was built in 1967. I had it reblued, the frame hard cromed, a bomar barrel and bushing put in, and high profiled fixed sites put on it in 1983. Looks like the old COLT COMBAT ELITE, only in 38 super instead of 45. Shoots great, but unless you reload is mighty expensive to shoot. 38 super ammo used to average 60 bucks a box , and that was before covid. Now is close to 100 bucks a box. If you shop around can get 9 mm for about 30 a box. In order to change from 38 super to 9 mm, all I had to do was buy a new ED BROWN barrel, bushing, and buy new magazines.
And if you reload, the same bullets you load of 9mm can be loaded in 38 super cases.
Is just a thought, and if the price is right buy both the 38 super and the barrel, bushing, and magazines for the 9mm. Just remember to tell who ever you buy the 9mm kit from if you have a commander size, or full size 1911