Revolver holster Fast-Draw Cant?

"I wear it there because Border Patrol regulations specify this position ! " Bill Jordan, 'No Second Place Winner,' p. 28.

Jordan believed that of the 5 different angles of tilt (cant) backwards to forwards, there was no appreciable difference in speed.

Bottom line, find the holster position that works best for you, draw quick and shoot straight.
 
I'd say these different men developed their ideas independently with different influences. The gentlemen about to destroy the camera in the photo above do not really look like their dressed for combat shooting or for law enforcement, in spite of the fact that one of them was a law officer. Of course, I realize their ideas developed from that point.

It would be interesting to speculate how much the different well known shooters from the past influenced one another, referring here to Elmer Keith, Jeff Cooper, Rex Applegate, Skeeter Skelton and the others from the Border Patrol like Jordan and Askins, who also had a holster design named after him.
 
Do not know, but there was an interesting case when one well-known shooter testified under oath about the proficiency of another shooter…both men were lawmen.

In 1978, police director Ed Cantrell, shot police officer Michael Rosa, a dirty cop involved in drug dealings. Problem was, officer Rosa never drew his gun…Cantrell claimed that was because he (Cantrell) was just too quick with his gun. (S&W M10)

Later, at Cantrell's trial, to prove his point, defense attorney Gerry Spence called legendary quick-draw lawman Bill Jordan to the stand. In a demonstration, Jordan had a police officer point a cocked 45 Colt SAA at him and told the officer to pull the trigger. Then, in a nano-second, Jordan drew and fired his own (blank) gun before the deputy could pull the trigger. Judge, jury, and courtroom were stunned at Jordan’s impossible speed.

Attorney Spence then asked Jordan if he had ever seen Cantrell draw a gun and Jordan replied in the affirmative. And then Spence asked Jordan how fast Cantrell was, and Jordan said, to a shocked courtroom, IIRC “he’s a mite faster than me.”

After about 2 hours deliberation, the jury acquitted Cantrell.

Don’t know if Cantrell and Jordan ever compared notes.

Kinda think they got there on their own.
 
That story could be scrutinized a little closer. Not quite as straightforward as it would appear from the bare bones version above. :)

But, I think it's important to keep in mind two things:
Jordan was a product of his times.
What he did worked for him & should not be construed as the One True Approach for everybody else.

His gun handling was largely developed around quickdraw and what I'd call "stunt show demonstrations", which is not taking anything away from his accomplishments & abilities.

Some of his...attitudes reflected the times, and even Jordan had a bad day when he accidentally killed a fellow Border Patrolman.

His book should be required reading, but it should not be considered the bible on LE gun carry or use.
Denis
 
Well, if you think about it, many of us here are products of the same times if we were born in the 1940s. He was one of those who we read about during our young and formative (and perhaps foolish) years.

Some writers would have you believe their way is the one true way (the disciples being "true believers"), others not being so dogmatic. Few would go so far as to suggest that rank amateurs could come up with something entirely on their own to fit their particular situation. Still, most students of this sort of thing will study everything they can get their hands on just the same. A few even start out by talking about the better known gunfighters of the old west, perhaps going so far as to visit the places where things happened or at least their final resting plast.
 
His gun handling was largely developed around quickdraw and what I'd call "stunt show demonstrations", which is not taking anything away from his accomplishments & abilities.
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I have nearly finished with his book. The observations that I have made so far are: His interest in fast draw was a result of the observation/analysis of many gunfights on the border. Also, his development of fast draw could not have been developed around "stunt show demonstrations", inasmuch as it was a long process of development done before he was a celebrated pistolero and did any "stunt show demonstrations". Also notable, in his book he states he had studied the "economy of motion", as the basis for his method. So, it would seem that the "stunt show demonstrations", came after he already had developed his method and holster. Of course, he could have been lying, I suppose.

Nevertheless, until I come across another method of fast draw that results from a study of the economy of motion and can clearly show that the newer method has a more efficient economy of motion (none seems to be forthcoming...but if there is, point me to it please), I will follow his advice for my experiment with fast draw.
 
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His book should be required reading, but it should not be considered the bible on LE gun carry or use.
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I cannot argue with that, inasmuch as I have not seen a Jordan holster or a revolver on a Law Enforcement person in a long time. Our State Cops (Michigan) carry Sigs, and most of the others carry Glocks. None I know of carry Revolvers these days. So there is no danger of his book/method/holster will be considered the bible on LE carry.
 
"I wear it there because Border Patrol regulations specify this position ! " Bill Jordan, 'No Second Place Winner,' p. 28.

Jordan believed that of the 5 different angles of tilt (cant) backwards to forwards, there was no appreciable difference in speed.
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Jordan also showed with photos that the gun butt would poke the ribs, be pushed on by the back of the seat in the car and the barrel muzzle of the holster would push the gun up if the butt was not canted forward. As you posted, he made that concession to comfort inasmuch as it did not effect the speed of draw.
 
Well, somebody must still be using Jordan style holsters for automatics, because I have one. No, it doesn't look exactly like his did, to be sure, but it has a slight butt forward tilt, and has a drop of just about the same amount, which puts the trigger guard just below the level of the belt. If the belt is actually worn at the waist, the pistol is perfectly verticle (but with the butt forward cant). Mine was made for the CZ 75 P-01, which is stamped on the back.

It is also a thumb snap holster and the trigger guard is covered. There is a distinct slot for a jacket but that's partly a byproduct of the design for a thumbsnap, if you follow me. I suppose it's an arguable point but it's pretty much a Jordan-style holster, just a little updated.

When I was little, the city policemen, who wore white shirts, carried longer barreled revolvers in swivel holster. You don't see those any more either.
 
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Well, somebody must still be using Jordan style holsters for automatics, because I have one. No, it doesn't look exactly like his did, to be sure, but it has a slight butt forward tilt, and has a drop of just about the same amount, which puts the trigger guard just below the level of the belt. If the belt is actually worn at the waist, the pistol is perfectly vertical (but with the butt forward cant). Mine was made for the CZ 75 P-01, which is stamped on the back.

It is also a thumb snap holster and the trigger guard is covered. There is a distinct slot for a jacket but that's partly a byproduct of the design for a thumbsnap, if you follow me. I suppose it's an arguable point but it's pretty much a Jordan-style holster, just a little updated.
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That is enough difference that I would not call that a "Jordan style holster". That sounds more like the typical duty holster for automatics worn by nearly all uniformed police today. Jordan was very specific in what he considered the ideal.
 
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His book should be required reading, but it should not be considered the bible on LE gun carry or use.
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I cannot argue with that, inasmuch as I have not seen a Jordan holster or a revolver on a Law Enforcement person in a long time. Our State Cops (Michigan) carry Sigs, and most of the others carry Glocks. None I know of carry Revolvers these days. So there is no danger of his book/method/holster will be considered the bible on LE carry.
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A few days after these posts, I was watching an episode of "Cops" on TV, and one of the officers was carrying a revolver (have not seen modern cops witout autos before), as his duty gun and during a take-down, it fell on the ground. At first he thought that the perp had dropped it, then realized (as he stated later), that his unrestrained (ala Jordan), gun had fallen out of its holster during the scuffle and could have been picked up by the perp. So it would seem that Jordan's advice about not having the safety strap snapped could have undesirable consequences in a modern duty scenario.
 
There seems to be some confusion here about "forward vs rearward cant". I would generally consider the forward cant to be "muzzle forward", which is the attitude that most all fast draw rigs used when I was shooting in the early '60's. The earlier post showing Ray Chapman, Thell Reed, Eldon Carl, Jack Weaver, and Cooper is in fact showing the rigs they wore at the time. I know. I shot with SWCPL (later SWPL) for several years with these guys, and shot the Leatherslap in Big Bear several times around '61-64. Sorry to say, with the exception of Thell Reed (and possibly Eldon Carl), I think they are all gone now. By the way, with the exception of a few guys using the Weaver stance or something similar, most of us shot live ammo at those 10" steel plates from just over the top of the holster. My gun of choice was a modified 1911 in .45ACP carried in an Andy Anderson "Gunfighter" walk and draw rig, which I think is the same one Ray Chapman is wearing in that photo above. Anderson died several years ago, but I understand that Victor Perez, who was Anderson's understudy, is still making them in the same style. He's somewhere in Burbank, Ca.
 
By the way, in response to an earlier question about "why" the forward cant (muzzle forward) was used: To keep you from shooting yourself in the leg by having the muzzle always pointed in the general direction of the target, rather than down at your foot. I think it started with the single action fast draw guys (like Thell Reed), but worked very well for the 1911's too.
 
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