Revolver holster Fast-Draw Cant?

I read Jordan's book. I disagreed with parts of it then & still do.
I reserve the right to decide what works best for ME. :)

After many years of wearing uniform holsters, I did not like the muzzle rearward cant because it caused me to assume contortions similar to a monkey with a stomach ache to draw my gun.

I did not like the muzzle forward cant because it presented too much grip to anybody trying a gun snatch from the rear.

When I achieved the financial ability to do so, I ordered holsters with a neutral, or straight drop "cant".
More resistant to a gun grab from behind (which does happen no matter how careful you may be, twice in my case), and no contortions to get the gun out.

I did not bend the holster outward to let it hang at an outboard angle, too easy for others to grab. That was the mark of an amateur, to me.

I disagreed severely with Jordan's advice to only use the snapstrap engaged over the gun when activity was anticipated, and to otherwise run around with it snapped around the holster's body.
That struck me as absolutely idiotic over 30 years ago when I first read the book, and more so now.

If you'd ever had a seatbelt snag a gun out of your holster, or lost your gun while running suddenly and unanticipatedly, you might too.

Dunno exactly what his daily duties consisted of, but he placed more emphasis on a quick draw than on retention, and when I was in uniform I ALWAYS anticipated action. The need to physically react in any number of ways could happen at any time, and I did not want to find myself without my gun if & when it did because it had fallen out of an unsecured holster, or to be unable to get it out in a hurry & find it was snapped when I thought it wasn't.

Very simple: keep the strap snapped all the time with the older style snapstrap & you always know you've got both retention AND your gun.

Later, when the thumbbreaks came out, I burned rubber to get one & used thumbbreaks for the rest of my career. Still do.
Good combination of speed and retention, and the best are a straight drop/neutral cant, for ME.

Jordan, much as I respect his accomplishments, was not the final word in gun carry. :)
Denis
 
Great post from DPris. I've read that book many times and there are things I agree with and do not agree with. He doesn't spend much time on the rake of the holster except to say that the back rake (muzzle back) tends to keep the butt of the gun off of the back of seat when in the patrol car. The back rake design also seems to give the longer muzzle some place to go when seated since there is more drop where the seat meets the back.

Bianchi in his book Bluesteel and Gunleather, spends a considerable amount of time talking about the rake. The general consensus is that the back rake aids in concealment and access if carried in a high ride position. The forward rake has the edge in speed if carried lower because of the natural positioning of the grip.
 
How the fashions change in holsters. History is of no help because if you can think of it, you can probably find a photo of a law officer wearing his sidearm like that.

I ran across a photo of two Texas Rangers in an old encyclopedia (I guess all encyclopias are old now). They were carrying their .45 autos cocked and locked but I'm afraid I don't remember the holster style just now, only it was worn higher than a Jordan rig.

Another photo from the 1950s showed a policeman wearing his Sam Browne belt (no shoulder strap) low, gunslinger style but I couldn't tell much about the holster. There are some interesting photos in "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting." Apparently cross-draw holsters had a following at one time and the first holster used with the Model 39 for police use was a cross-draw full-flap holster.

The Jordan style holster is still apparently somewhat popular, though usually fitted with a thumb-snap type retention device. I've had a couple of thumbsnap holsters that are very positive and fast "enough." I still think full-flap holsters are of value but they're anything but fast. I hate to admit it but low hanging holster, military style, are the most comfortable to wear, though not for driving. For driving or sitting, a cross-draw is appealing.

Most police holsters these days that I've noticed seem to sit higher than a Jordan holster, and invariably have a straight drop or neutral cant. Possibly this is to help clear the car seat but they usually do not hug the body that much. Probably the chief reason for that is to allow a jacket to be worn at the same time.

The Jordan style holster actually pre-dates Jordan but it had not previously been made with a steel insert. General Patton's holsters were pretty much Jordan style holsters except the Jordan style is more cut away around the trigger. He had other fast draw habits that would be frowned upon these days.
 
After many years of wearing uniform holsters, I did not like the muzzle rearward cant because it caused me to assume contortions similar to a monkey with a stomach ache to draw my gun.
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For my purpose, just for fun fast-draw, I can ignore all duty-related considerations (seated in car, gun grab, etc.), and just focus on speed. I also considered how the forward cant seemed to require that, "monkey with a stomach ache", throw-the-shoulder-and-elbow-forward, to get one's hand on the grip.

That is the reason I have been making experimental holsters with an extreme rear-ward cant and putting them in the appendix carry position when experimenting with fast-draw. However, in post #7 Deaf Smith brought up an interesting point in that Jordan used a "circular draw" which I took to mean that he put his hand on the gun and pulled it back and down and shot from the holster height instead of using the contortions required (in forward cant), to pull the gun forward and rotate it up into the firing posistion...if so, would be something to consider. I was hoping that the book, when it gets here would explain it clearly.

That is my purpose in this thread...to get input on the exact cant and exact path of the hand when fast-drawing. I have watched utube vidios of cowboy, single-action fast draw, but there does not seem to be anything comparable available on double-action fast-draw.
 
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Honestly, I can't think of doing it any other way, referring to the circular motion. Otherwise, as was done with the old walk-and-draw competitions in the 1950s, you would presumably be shooting literally from the waist. That is, unless you changed direction with your draw to get the gun out in front of you, if you follow what I'm getting at.

The single-action shooters then would cock their revolver on the draw for speed, so making a draw moving to the rear (If I'm understanding this correctly) would be a little more natural, after a fashion, but getting the gun out front would cancel out that advantage.
 
Blue Train, I remember Jordan holding a ping-pong ball on the back of his hand, drawing and shooting and the ball going into his holster. As I remember, for what it is worth, he was shooting from the hip, did not move the gun to his front. I noticed in the single-action fast-draw videos on utube, they drew and fired in a similar fashion. Their hand would snap back with thumb against the hammer, and tilt the gun back from the holster, firing from the hip. Although the appendix holster position with the extreme backward cant seems to my to offer the most ergonomic position as to wrist and arm, Jordan was so fast that I do not want to over-look his method. Although it seems counter-intuitive to me, it seems well worth investigating.
 
Based on an article in an old gun magazine, he did not fire the gun when he was doing that trick (ping pong ball in the holster). He stated that the hard part of that trick was getting the ping pong ball to actually go in the holster. Actually firing the gun while doing that would make it even harder.

However, he did another trick using a ping pong ball in which he would shoot the ball. In that case, if I'm remembering correctly, his hand was further out, palm up or down I don't remember, but he would shoot the ball before it hit the ground. In the photo illustrating the article, I believe he may have been crouching slightly and the gun was definately not at the hip exactly but pointed down at the ball, obviously, and his arm was almost straight. But that was trick shooting and fast draw was his speciality.

Ed McGivern, also a trick and demonstration shooter, tended to specialize in fast (very, very fast) and accurate target shooting, though he wrote at length on holsters in his book, just not so much on fast draw, fifties-style. He also wrote on unusual shooting positions.

I'd have to say they both experimented extensively with what they were trying to do, even though they didn't really start with a blank piece of paper, so to speak. There's no reason anyone couldn't do something similiar but you won't find many who support that position.

They were both physically gived in one way or another for what they were doing. Jordon was an unusually large man and had extra large hands, which probably made a fast draw with a K-frame revolver much easier.
 
They were both physically gifted in one way or another for what they were doing. Jordon was an unusually large man and had extra large hands, which probably made a fast draw with a K-frame revolver much easier.
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As I remember Ed McGivern was a short, portly man. If that be the case it would seem that I should be able to shoot like McGivern inasmuch as I am similarly "gifted".
 
There's no reason anyone couldn't do something similiar but you won't find many who support that position.
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You have to remember that I am doing it for fun, on my own range...It has no practical purpose intended.
 
The actual draw and how Bill Jordan did it(the book is on it's way). Not having his book yet, by "circular draw", I assume that you mean in a counter-clock wise motion as seen from the right side of the shooter? If so, I am beginning to see how a forward cant would work...that is exactly what I was looking for.
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You bring the hand down from the front, swing around just behind the holster, and 'scoop' up the revolver as your hand picks up speed coming upwards. Wrist will be bent. Just as the muzzle clears, rotate the handgun barrel toward the target.

Jordan would start pulling the trigger just as he STARTED the draw and finish pulling it (to fire) just as the barrel came into alignment with the target.

Now this can be DANGEROUS if, for some reason, your draw hangs up in mid-draw (and your trigger finger keeps pulling the trigger!)

Do this as your own risk! But, yes, it's the fastest way to fire the gun. It's also the fastest way to shoot yourself.

Mucho practice with an empty gun, and then later with wax bullets.

Deaf
 
Barrel slightly forward and holster in front of the hip. That's the way I learned to bust balloons.

Never got fast. Did have lots of fun.
 
Now this can be DANGEROUS if, for some reason, your draw hangs up in mid-draw (and your trigger finger keeps pulling the trigger!)
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I have been practicing with live ammunition. Albeit, as I posted, I have (up to this point), been using severely canted, butt to the rear holsters I have made, so the barrel has not been pointed at my appendages at any time. In contrast it is beginning to sound like Jordan's method may be more problematic.
 
No matter how many times I hear or read about Jordan starting the trigger pull as he was drawing the revolver I can't help but take a big deep breath. Guess that willingness to go out on the edge (albeit with practice and common sense) is one of the things that separates the ordinary folks from the extraordinary.

Of course in Jordan's case it also helps to have phenomenal reflexes.

The guy was incredible.
 
The magazine "Guns of the Old West" usually has stories and photos of quick-draw contests. I believe gripmaker Cary Chapman participates in these as well.

Note in most photos the holster is tied, or belted, to the thigh. the holster is canted rearward, and they draw with a back=bending motion and fire as the gun clears the holster.

Also, guns are as light as possible, with aluminum grip frames, ejector rod housings, and even barrels. Aluminum barrels are possible as they fire blanks.

Their entire set-up is built for sheer speed, not practicalbility, which sounds like what you're after.

Bob Wright
 
I do not know why there is so much discussion or confusion over this. The fastest guys in the world took combat shooting to the limit, and the gear for it, back about 40-50 years ago. Nothing has changed, except compromises over the holster's concealability, comfort, or cost. The style in this picture is THE fastest drawing holster type available.
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Don't they all look thin!

I found a few articles by or about Bill Jordan in some old "Guns" magazines (Shooting, Hunting, Adventure) from around 1960. The stunt in which he drops something, then draws and shoots it, was done using a coke bottle (they were smaller then) filled with something white. By the time he got off his shot, it looked like the bottle was about a foot from the ground, maybe less, but his right arm was straight and his legs were bent. For more horizontal shooting, I don't think he went into a crouch.

While known for his fast draw shooting with a revolver, not necessarily always with a Model 19 S&W, he was also an enthusiastic rifle shooter and even wrote articles on the subject.

Not surprisingly, the magazine was full of ads for Hollywood-style Western fast draw holsters but there were none of the combat shooting articles you find in magazines today or self-defense stories. If one carefully reads the letters, however, there were apparently serious concerns that we were soon going to be invaded or something. Lots of articles about the police, too. We were much more conservative and civic minded then than we are now.
 
I do not know why there is so much discussion or confusion over this. The fastest guys in the world took combat shooting to the limit, and the gear for it, back about 40-50 years ago. Nothing has changed, except compromises over the holster's concealability, comfort, or cost. The style in this picture is THE fastest drawing holster type available.
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Re: THE fastest drawing holster type available. However, the Border Patrol holster Jordan used canted the other way...forward. I would very much like a rationale for why/how the forward cant could be a positive factor on speed of draw. What was Jordan's rationale? Or, was it as others have posted, a concession for some other purpose (riding in a car, horse back, not as assessable for grabbing from behind, etc.)?
 
I'm sure the reason is speed. For a DA revolver, I'm certain it's faster if your shooting position is going to be with the gun somewhere out front, either high or low. I'm with the so-called circular motion on the draw. Otherwise, as I think I said already, you have to do a back and forth change of direction with the handgun. With the circular motion, you are merely rotating the pistol in the desired direction, as your hand is already going in the right direction, more or less.

With a holster that has a vertical drop and no tilt one way or the other, one can still manage a circular draw (if we can call it that) unless the holster is very ridgedly secured on the belt, the belt is equally rigid, the holster is stiff and you are only standing straight up. I find it difficult to avoid some degree of crouch (maybe it's a slouch!) when practicing a draw but I don't pretend to be dogmatic about the style.

I mentioned already that Jordan's holsters were modifications of earlier designs. There were even earlier designs suitable for fast draw, like the Tom Threeperson holster, which is still made by several companies. Most holster makers probably will make a holster with any kind of cant you care to have, provided the design lends itself to variation. Another thing about the Jordan holster (as he used it) was that, although his had a butt-forward cant, it did not otherwise jut out away from his hip. It was still carried vertically as seen from the front.
 
It has to do with the timeline of distinguished shooters, and when they developed their holsters and thoughts. Jordan preceded Cooper, Carl, and Weaver, and his holster design (muzzle to the rear) came about with patrol use in mind. It is a GREAT position for horseback or seated in a vehicle: you can still get your gun out (as opposed to muzzle forward, butt to the rear. I tried that more modern concept in a patrol car, and damned if I could get my gun out very fast! Butt was wedged right against the seat in most vehicles.) But the subject here is SPEED. Jordan was able to make his holster work, fast, because he had arms much longer than most people, and that gave him an edge. He even TOLD me that, at Camp Perry one year in the 1970's (he was a regular there, for the NRA, along with pistolsmith Jim Clark. They were buddies, and hung out together in Clark's shop spot at Perry, answering questions, and being just great down-to-earth guys. Jordan always felt he had an edge because he was so tall and lanky, and could reach, draw, and present a revolver so fast due to the shorter arc of his long arm in the draw.) Then later came the "other guys", who found that the muzzle forward travelled less distance from the holster to the target. Very simple physics, when you watch or experiment with it. The movement of the gun, and the locked wrist from almost start to finish on the draw and shoot make for less wrist and hand action. With the Jordan draw, you have to start with a "weak" wrist, and recover from that as you swing the gun forward. Starting with a locked wrist, almost in the position that you will be shooting from is faster.
 
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