Revolver Competitions?

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I think what he was trying to say is that with revolvers the "typical" LEO would empty a cylinder score two hits and send three/four wild shots down range. Now with high-caps, the same "typical" LEO empties a magazine scores three/four hits and sends twelve/thirteen wild shots down range (and he thinks it better). It doesn't seem like a very equitable trade-off to me.
 
One point PAT has missed is that in my experience, with the right grips, most revolvers have a far better "natural pointing feel" than a slidegun. And if a particular revolver's feel is screwball, I can swap grips and radically change it's feel as needed.

This is impossible with most autos.

With most revolvers, I can align my forearm bones in my strong arm with the line of the barrel, *behind* the barrel (in a Weaver hold). This is the hold that gives maximum recoil control on major loads. I can't do it with a 1911 type, or a Gluck19 or similar.

So for me, I can bring a wheelgun to bear faster and more accurately than I can a slidegun.

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On another subject:

We all know some revolvers are capable of big power. What would happen if the IPSC or similar game rules were tweaked such that a "double major" caliber level was available, in which you could nail a target fewer times yet score the same because you were shooting energy levels at least double the current "major" spec?

In other words, a guy shooting six 454Casulls would be presumed to have delivered as much power on target as a guy that shot 12 .45ACPs? So the .45ACP shooter might need to double-tap some targets that a handcannon wheelgunner might have to nail only once?

At that point, a Vaquero shooting 325grain 1300+ fps .45LC could go up against guys with .45ACP raceguns :D. Wouldn't THAT be an interesting race?
 
Funny thing, how many people here are defending revolvers... when I know well that they carry auto pistols.

And you can add my name to the pile.

I'm all for training. Training is a Good Thing. Doing it the right way is to be approved of. But there is contengincy planning to think of. If you are presented with special circumstances, by all means try to take advantage of those tools that may best be used under those circumstances. In the case of a lady who might be presented with somewhat threatening, but not altogether immediately threatening, circumstance, she might well wish to place her hand on a weapon while keeping it hidden away in her purse.

Training, of course, tells us that it's best to clear our weapon before engaging it. Practical circumstance may not agree with training. What are we to do? Well how about equipping ourselves in a way best to deal with the impractical, less desirable possibility, while planning on employing the preferable method if possible?

It's a good idea to consider that there are many ways in the world-- not just our own.

L.P.
 
LP,

I am also guilty of carrying an automatic rather than a revolver and will gladly admit it (as you have). Does that imply hypocrisy? :p

My preferred carry arm is a 1911 clone (there goes any capacity argument), although I sometimes carry a P226 9mm if I sense my destination may require I engage multiple targets (e.g.; gang presence) in a confrontation.

Sure, for most of us, the likelihood of being confronted with a violent assailant probably does not warrant we carry much more than a revolver of some type. For example, I would not feel outgunned, if I had only, say, my Colt Trooper MK III. Having carried a .357 as a defensive piece for more years than I have automatics, I can say I've walked the walk. Still, it would be dishonest for me not to admit that capacity is an issue for me at times. At least for what I see as specific circumstances as described above.

I just don't see the switch to an automatic as being the panacea for everybody that Pat continually claims it is. His blanket "sound byte" snippets fail to encompass many simple realities as witnessed by the excellent points made by fellow members in this thread and others.

For example, I have been working with my female companion for several months attempting to get her to make the transition from her .357 revolver to a 9mm semi-automatic.

I see this as more of an ammunition commonality issue than anything else. There are also the cost and effectivity issues (she shoots .38+P @1,000 fps in her .357 at present) versus 9mm defensive ammunition, with 9mm costing less and generally being considered more effective.

The capacity issue is a much smaller consideration, in fact, as it appears she will end up with a single stack 9mm before it is all said and done (small hands). So, until she can demonstrate the skills and proficiency in operating a semi-automatic such as loading, unloading, safety controls, clearance drills, etc; is it not the better choice to arm her with an "obsolete" revolver during the interim? I am positive Pat would not advocate arming an officer with a firearm they could not demonstrate proficiency with either.

I'd prefer she carry a commander or compact 1911 clone, but where weight is not the issue, recoil or reliability would rear its ugly head. I also don't want the additional logistical requirement and cost of having to procure 185 grain defensive loads, which, in my experience, have proven harder to find and are more expensive than the multitude of 230 grain offerings out there.

It does make sense for LEO to carry automatics, given that they receive proper training and are required to demonstrate proficiency periodically. I would go so far as to say, with criminals opting for semi-automatics, that their profession demands it.

But it isn't the "pat" answer for everybody.

I think Pat pulls from a pool of knowledge and experience much like we all do. Much of what he says is concrete in its foundations. But his "one-size fits all" comments regarding semi-automatics versus revolvers ring of the confines and constraints of his requirements in his chosen profession.

I know he isn't claiming that we should toss all the revolvers in the ocean and only offer semi-automatics to everybody, but you can see where a person might derive that from his many statements.

Each of us evolves in our pursuit for whatever firearm(s) we think will fulfill the scenarios that we sense we may encounter in a self-defense situation.

Anyone that says that any category of common arms (like revolvers) be completely discounted from the pool of selections for self-defense is bound to draw much criticism, and rightly so.

Especially on a revolver dedicated portion of any forum.:D

I had a Nissan once that was a nightmare to operate, when it would run. You don't see me going down to the local dealership or Nissan fan club and telling them what they sell is junk and of no use to anybody.

Only a fool would do that and believe they were going to accomplish anything. :)
 
Jager1 -

I agree largely with what you said about pistols. In a different place and a different life, I too would occassionally reach for a 1911 if I was going into certain neighborhoods at certain times of the day. That's basically what I said way back in my first post that: they each have their advantages and their disadvantages.

I do believe for most people in most places the revolver's advantages outweigh the pistol's advantages (even for many LEOs I know--largely due to its tolerance for abuse and simpler manual arms--i.e., it's less prone to operator error).

I think you may have been a little generous in your understanding of PAT. Did you catch this jewel is posted earlier in this thread (since it is very germaine to what you just said, and certainly doesn't sound like a cop talking from a cop's point of view):
I am not hung up on capacity. If I had the choice between a Glock 31 loaded with 6 rounds or a Smith 686 Plus with 7 I would take the glock.
PAT
 
Both pistols and revolvers work. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Pick what works for you.

When are we going to learn that Pat's response to a given issue regarding revolvers is ALWAYS going to be the same? In the year I've been hanging out on this board, Pat has yet to come up with new arguments. By responding and allowing him to dominate the discussion, we give him exactly what he wants.

I'm all for open discussion, but frankly, this rant trying to convince Pat that he's wrong or him trying to convince me that I am is more than a little tiresome. JMHO

Bob
 
An interesting point...

...regarding the capacity issue.

Many moons ago, before IDPA, we had "practical" competitions at a local range that were designed for carry guns.

One stage required leaning around a barricade and shooting two or three IPSC targets at three yards, left hand only, ducking behind the barricade and reloading, then leaning to the other side to engage three poppers at 15, 25, and 50 yards. The first set of targets was engaged with only three rounds in the gun, but you could load a full magazine for the poppers.

Well, "gaming" the stage a little, I used my factory SIG P-228 13-rounder for the cardboard and my 15-round "cheater" Mec-Gar for the poppers. My score was in the top 5 going into the stage, and I felt pretty confident about a top-three finish. *POP!POP!POP!*; three A-zone hits on the sillhouettes, duck behind the barricade, reload and drop the slide, and lean out to the right. *CLANG!*, down goes the first popper. *CLANG!*, popper number two takes a dirtnap. Line up the sights on the third popper and *ting!*; it wobbles, but stays upright. Dammit! I can hear the clock ticking in my head as my score starts to go to hell. Line up and squeeze again; missed! Everything was unravelling; I mentally saw my name sliding off the leader board. In frustration, I think to myself "I have thirteen rounds left; something's bound to hit!" and go into full Mel Gibson bullet hose mode. BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM! Brass flies, dust puffs rise all over the place downrange. As the slide locks back, the popper has... not budged; it stood there laughing at me. Confidence frazzled, I choked left and right for the rest of the match and finished near the bottom. The winner? A local LEO. Shooting a 2.5" 686.

The next match, I showed up with my .44 Spl Bulldog Pug. Off to a good start, I reached the same barricade stage. This time, concentration focussed by the fact that I must make each of my five rounds count, the poppers went down 1-2-3 with neat COM hits. I finished third that day. I used the Bulldog for the next couple matches before going back to a self-shucker, so as to thoroughly rid myself of any "mag-capacity-as-crutch-for-bad-shooting" tendencies. After going back to the auto, I even won a match; the deputy with the 686 was out of town for a National Guard weekend. ;)
 
quote from 355sigfan to Jager 1....

"Also why the name calling (so called expert) if you disagree with me fine but try to be a bit more professional".
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Okay, so....

Name calling = unacceptable
Trashing others peoples' preferences
and stirring up trouble = acceptable

Really....is one any more professional than the other?

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Concerning my previous statement:
"As far as revolvers being 'handicapped'....I invite you to run your happy ass downrange and I'll show you how handicapped they are--not".

Apparently you chose to take this literally---I should have known. Allow me to clarify it for you: It is a manner of speaking to express my belief that a revolver is no less capable than an auto. Furthermore, I would never use violence of any sort to prove a point.
 
NO advantages to a revolver. NONE.

Zip, zero, zilch, that's what Pat asserted.


If only Pat had the maturity to say, "Touche', you got me on that one. There's obviously some things I haven't considered, or scenarios I haven't thought up. Mea Culpa.". Alas, he continues to grasp at straws in attempts to refute the points that have been so clearly made.:rolleyes:
 
This is a training issue." It is on the range. On the street, with adrenalin pumping and everything going wrong that can wrong, training can (usually) goes out the window--"
END

False you will revert to training understress. If you did not train properly then your screwed. A case in point is one California LEO agency used to teach its recruits to put the empty brass from their revolvers in their pockets so the range would not get dirty. Later they had a shooting with dead cops with empty brass in their pockets.

The capacity issue is a issue its not the biggest issue but it is one none the less. Having more bullets is better than having fewer. Again there is no reason in this day and age to carry a revolver over an auto except for hunting or as a back up gun. (only the new titanium revovlers justify that) Juliet you stated I was full of half truths where the reality is you are. Fortunatly most of the world LEO's and Civilian CCW's understand that and carry auto's
PAT
 
Pat, you made a statement that, "Police hit ratio has stayed at a fairly level 25% before and after revovlers. Round count has gone up but percentages are the same overall." I want to know where you got this information, as I wonder how it was spun to get this outcome. Fred
 
PAT -

You have refused to respond to the points raised by me and others. Why don't you try again to respond to substantively to the many points raised instead of glossing over them.

As to the training issue, I think it is not quite as clear-cut as you would like it to be. It depends a lot on the level and quality of training, and the amount and frequency of practice (refresher training) so that it becomes second nature. It really has little or nothing to do with most of your unsupported (unsupportable) statements concerning the viability of the revolver as a weapon (even though you did try to pass some training issues off as reliability issues).

Unfortunately, many (too be honest, probably most) LEOs and practically no civilians in this country are not trained to that level. I used to live in large town (100, 000 plus) located in a county approaching a million population, its LEO received firearms training in the Academy (they ran their own) then fired 100 rounds per year to qualify thereafter whether they needed it or not. Want to bet how many of them would respond like they were trained to in the Academy five years and 500 rounds ago? (By the way, they had more training/qualification requirements than either the county or the other municipalities.) I'd go so far as to say the majority of LEOs are miserably undertrained and underpracticed (as well as overworked and underpaid). For this very reason, the revolver with its simpler manual of arms and less prone to operator error would be a good choice. The same would hold more than true for the average private citizen.

I've seen more than one dash video showing officers (some that I know were trained differently, pointing their gun--instinctively, not aimed fire for instance), not taking cover and emptying their weapon (and then looking down range, saying a dirty word without reloading or taking cover--the very basics). I can point severa; fairly recent incidents in at least three large east coast cities where the response of various (sometimes whole groups) of LEOs bely your point. It happens, PAT, and I am not even talking about private citizens but trained LEOs.

So, I will concede to you that many well-trained and practiced individuals will usually revert to training under stress (and even then a lot of their response depends on being mentally prepared at the time of the encounter--keeping their head, situational awareness etc.). I would go so far as to say that even YOU do not know for sure how you will respond when it all falls apart until you have been there, and that, even if you survive, you will have made some mistakes, and it will change your outlook.

You should to realize that "well-trained and practiced" (even without throwing in "mentally prepared") identifies a very, very small proportion of the population--both LEO and private citizen.
Fortunatly most of the world LEO's and Civilian CCW's understand that and carry auto's
PAT
Unfortunately, PAT, it is not a popularity contest (influenced by a number issues including marketing and "herd mentality" besides which is best for the job). People carry different weapons for a number of different reasons (including what they see in the movies). By no means does this meaningless platitude support any of your various ill-thought out positions, unsubstantiated positions you have taken in this thread. Just because "everybody else is doing it" doesn't it make it right. (I wonder how many times I had to my children that before they learned.)

Now, PAT, if you would please, some substanstive answers to the points raised. (Or is it time for you to cut and run again?)
 
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In the late '70s....

Law Enforcement agencies of all stripe started changing over to autopistols. The official reasoning for this was to give lawmen (both genders included) firepower parity with the evil doers carrying all manner of semi-automatic and fully-automatic weapons.
If this was a real threat is hard to say. There was an upsurge in lawmen getting killed; I have doubts it was due to weaponry.

Sadly, most agencies response to the perceived threat was to issue larger capacity weapons and ignore the training part of the equation. You see, paying for new guns is cheap compared to taking the troops off the street, line, station or whatever for training.
This is still true. I work for a national agency and get a total of 24 hours per year of firearms training, including qualification time and lunch on range day.

But I can make the requisite number of holes in the correct portion of a paper target, so I'm "qualified" and the agency can avoid some degree of liablilty.

There is some failure clearing drills and some reloading drills and some "tactical" excercises. It is reasonably well intentioned, but minimal.

The fact is, agencies have relied on gimmicks rather than competence. Look at holsters. How many agencies have gone to some "snatch-proof" holster with more buttons than the control room of the Enterprize rather than teach gun retention?

There is truth in the saw that in a panic, one reverts to training. If one is half trained, one "half acts". If one has not been trained, one does what one has been trained to do: nothing.

There is a difference between training and brain-washing. Training occurs when one learns to use one's equipment to the fullest extent.
Brainwashing occurs when one is convinced his massive load of rounds will defend him against all evil, and everyone else is out of luck.
 
355sigfan has...

...actually skimmed across a good point in one of his posts, although he gave it less attention than it warranted, as I believe it's his strongest leg to stand on. (Yes, I'm one of those folks that usually carries an auto; other than the 296 that resides in my purse, my daily belt carry is most usually a self-shucker.)

See, the shorter a trigger is, the easier it is to score hits with minimal training. This is why, f'rinstance, a 1911 can make even a newbie feel like a marksman. Good DA/SA autos autos are probably next, discounting that many folks will just toss the first, DA shot. Next in the heirarchy would probably be the various "semi-DA" types like Glocks and Kahrs. Most difficult to score rapid, precise hits with are probably the long-trigger-pull DAO autos and double-action wheelguns.

I started out on revolvers for CCW, but could never get the same results with them that the old guys who were my mentors did. Naturally, with my young mind stuffed full of the wisdom of the gunzines, I sought a hardware solution to a software problem and traded my Model 13 for a 659. My scores improved, since the single-action trigger of the auto was easier for my young, unpracticed self to master. Convinced I had stumbled across Universal Truth, I shunned revolvers for many years; my beliefs that you couldn't hit a barn from the inside with the door closed with a double action trigger were reinforced by a brief and unsuccessful association with a KP-91DAO.

Ironically, it was a Glock that led me back to reality. A series of G23's that I spent serious time practicing with forced me to concede that, with some practice, accurate hits could be made rapidly with something other than a short hair trigger. Then I bought a 625-4 because it looked cool. Hours upon hours of dry practice shooting badguys on TV with that gun taught me that a smooth, rapid pull on a DA trigger wouldn't throw your sights off target if you knew what you were doing.

I began to love DA triggers. I began to find that if you've mastered your trigger control on a DA trigger, then all your pistol shooting becomes easier. I started to really groove on the zen-like *cla-click-snap!* of the revolver's trigger and lockwork and cylinder all working in harmony. I stopped thumb-cocking my wheelguns.

I have a Model 13 again, this time a Performance Center gun, and I'd bet my life on it as readily as any handgun I own. I haven't thumbed the hammer back on any of my DA wheelguns in as long as I can remember, now. Matter of fact, the PC-13 doesn't even have a single-action notch on the hammer to mess up its' beautiful, silky trigger pull. I like DA pulls so much that my G23C has been stood down as my bedside gun in favor of a Beretta 96D "slickslide". Why? Because it's like a 12-shot .40 cal revolver, that's why; of all DAO autos, the Beretta's is the trigger that feels most like a super-slick PPC wheelgun's.

For this reason I feel that while the revolver's simplicity and safety make it an ideal newbie's gun, the mastery of the DA trigger is the sign of a serious handgun shooter; no yanking or jerking, just a smooth and steady pull. It shows that you've put effort into mastering your weapon. The revolver; "a more elegant weapon from a more civilized time. Not so clumsy or random as a blaster..." ...and a worthy sidearm for a Jedi. ;)
 
Now, PAT, if you would please, some substanstive answers to the points raised. (Or is it time for you to cut and run again?)

END
I did you just chose not to accept it.

Archie snatch resistant holsters are a great tool for weapon retention not a replacment for teaching weapon retention. In the 70's about 25% of cops were killed with thier own pistol its now down to 12% why. Well its because of snatch resistant holsters and better training. Cops are getting better training today than they ever have in the past. Self loaders are tools that reflect that greater training as now we can use better tools that the revolvers of the past.
PAT
 
mr. 355,

you mentioned a case in CA where an agency taught their officers to place their brass in their pockets during shooting exercises to keep their range clean. and then you said as a result of this type of training, dead cops were found with brass in their pockets. are you referring to the so called "chp newhall incident?" if so, i have been researching the "newhall" case for over a 20 year period. in spite of your common misconception, i have never been able to locate one shred of evidence that brass was found in any dead officer's pocket. i have taken statements from the prosecutor and the first responding officer along with reading the police report and the coroner's report where personal property found on the dead officers was listed. as you see, only one of the four officers involved was able to reload his weapon during this incident. and he certainly did not place his spent brass into his pocket. your posting on this brass issue leads me to believe that your opinions on the revolver are just this-misconceptions.

ed
 
Now, PAT, if you would please, some substanstive answers to the points raised. (Or is it time for you to cut and run again?)

END
I did you just chose not to accept it.
No, PAT, you did not. You responded to a single issue involving training that holds equally true for revolvers and pistols (and failed to acknowledge the reality that most cops and practically all civilian are miserably undertrained which should effect weapon selection). I believe if you go back and read Archie's post that you so blithely dismissed, you would find out that he is a LEO, and that he largely agreed with my assessment of the training issue.

You totally failed to offer any substanstive response to the numerous advantages of revolvers posted by me and many others. (By the way, nobody has stated revolvers are superior to pistols in all cases merely that most weapon systems have their advantages and disadvantages.) To insist revolvers are obsolete, or that somehow carrying a pistol gives a person a substantial advantage over a person carrying revolver is: (1) ignorance, pure and simple (or willful), or an out and out lie--which is it in your case, PAT?

So again, PAT, you have followed your usual pattern: post a bunch of humus and meaningless platitudes without any support. Then, when pushed to support the points rasied you either pretend your insulted and run-off with your tail between your legs, or you tell everybody that you have supported your arguments (which you have not), and that they "chose not to accept it." PAT, you said NOTHING in response to the points raised for us to accept (or reject).

In light of your failure to respond substanstively to the points raise concerning advantages revolvers have pertaining to pistols, we must conclude that (1) they exist and are very real: and (2) you understand these advantages, you refuse to acknowledge them and either refuse or cannot comment on them.

PAT, we're not talking about what you believe. I think most people could readily accept your saying pistols have certain advantages over revolvers and you prefer them for your own use--probably a half a dozen other, me included, have said the same thing in this thread. It would be a good thing is someone asked you why you prefer pistols you tell them--they do have some advantages (and you can do it without "slamming" another weapon system that has advantages of its own). Again, if you do not like revolvers for defense so say--it's your personal and choice and nobody cares--just don't insist that your views are the only right and correct views for everybody else. People do object to blanket negative statements that trash everything but your own choice and offer no good support--I think, PAT, the operative words here are "blanket," "negative."

Do you ever wonder why, as a certain comedian would say, you "get no respect" here, on Glock Talk, or on Tactical Forums? When you first started posting seriously on these forums, I thought you were just kid who needed to grow-up a little bit, and develp some wisdom and maturity--I've since been convinced you're immune to both wisdom and maturity. Then I thought you were just an "agent provacateur" who just like to stir up stuff and set back and laugh--but then I begin understand you really believe all that tripe you post. I am no longer so generous in my assessment of you and your "knowledge" and your almost total and complete lack of wisdom and maturity (and honesty).
 
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