PAT -
Nice try, PAT. You responded to weakest arguments (and then, only half-way with a lot of your usual half-truths). You chose ignore the other arguments or else had no answer for them (most likely).
Revolvers misfire, bullets jump crimp cases get stuck under the extractor star. In my expierence revolvers of good quality are no more reliable that autos of good quality.
1. "Revolvers misfire." So do pistols. With the revolver, you pull the trigger again--one handed, automatic, instantaneous fix (you do not lose your sight picture, your grip or "change gears" in terms of focus and concentration. With a pistol, you remove your finger from the trigger/trigger guard, you remove your off-hand from its firing position, you rack the slide (try to doing that with cold, wet, slippery hand--or maybe after already catching a bullet, and strong recoil/hammer springs), you tap the magazine vigourously, you return your off-hand to its firing positon, you move your trigger finger back into the trigger guard and onto the trigger, your reaquire your sight picture (and hope like hell, the guy whose revolver misfired hasn't shot you five times while you were going through this exercise).
2. "Bullets jump crimp." Maybe. I've never had it happen, and never seen it happen. I don't shoot titanium/scandium revolvers (which are advertised as being prone to this phenomena). It will not happen with correct ammo for the weapon and for the mission. If it does happen, it would be "opertor error" of the same class as loading a magazine with wrong ammunition.
3. "Cases get stuck under the extractor star." Operator error pure and simple--tantamount to inserting a magazine backwards. Not a problem with moon clips. If you eject your empties correctly, they will not get stuck under the extractor. (Besides, there is only one old former black powder calibre is really prone to this.)
To be honest, I see no difference in substantive reliabilty between a revolver and good quality, well-maintained pistol--the operative word being "well-maintained." A pistol is maintenance intensive compared to a revolver. Both pistols and revolvers subject to operator errors that can be mistaken (as you have chosen to do) for reliability problems. Both are subject catastrophic mechanical failure more or less equally--mechanical equipment/parts does break. The pistols biggest
weakness in the reliability arena are its magazines and ammo sensitivity. Magazines are subject to damage by use and just by being carried. The damage can be hard to catch in a visual inspection (slightly bent magazine lips can cause feeding problems), and even if you checked them before shift, they are subject damage/abuse just during your day-to-day routine of in and out of the car, through doors in and out of buildings, struggles. You can never be a hundred percent sure that magazine you have been carrying on your belt will work (and when a magazine goes down, you effectlively lose all the ammo in the magazine). A revolver is much less sensitive to ammo variations (as an aside, giving much greater versatility), and it does not depend on ammunition to cycle the action. I would say it's a toss-up as to which causing the most reliability problems: operator or ammo, but the pistol is more sensitive to both. I think we can both agree the pistol has the more complicated manual of arms, and more complicated the procedure, the greater the chances of operator error.
yes an auto can be stopped by pushing the slide back slightly but a revolver can be stopped by simply grabbing the cylinder. If your that close its time for some grappling and martial art skills not gun play.
1. "A revolver can be stopped by simply grabbing its cylinder." That's not what we were talking about. If a bad guy(s) have you down and it's a hand-to-hand struggle, and you jam your weapon (primary or back-up) up against his body and pull the trigger your revolver will fire--a pistol will not (a Glock might fire, but the resulting small explosion--often referred to asa "kB!"--will probably hurt you more than the bady guy). Couple that with maybe being flat on your back, in an awkward position, or in very tight quarters (how about the floor of your patrol unit with the bad on top of you doing his best to kill you, you want something can fire repeatedly at any angle and with any grip (after all you may not be able to lock your wrist).
2. "A revolver can be stopped by simply grabbing its cylinder." It can be done but it's not quite that simple--you have to know (and remember) to do it, and it is really not that easy to do--it takes a good grip and lot of strength to stop a cylinder from rotating when there's a desparate person pulling the trigger struggling to get the weapon free--and remember the guy on the trigger has the leverage/grip advantage--(maybe a little simpler than a bad guy disassemblying your Beretta while you're holding him a gunpoint but the same principle).
3. "If your that close its time for some grappling and martial art skills not gun play. " Sure, the situation has gone totally to hell, the bad guy has got you down flat on between the curb (they have those in Bethel, don't they) and your patrol unit, beating the hell out of you and doing his level best to make sure someone collects your life insurance, and YOU are going to throw away your gun and scream, "Hi! Karate!" Sometimes, PAT, I don't know whether its from just being sheltered, a lack or experience, or just plain overconfidence, I wonder about you.
Depends on the design. Some autos are more sensitive than others. This is a training issue. I have no problems firing weak handed and no one will that has proper training. The revolver is difficult to fire for those of weak hand strength due to its DA pull. Also try reloading a auto one handed vs a revolver.
1. " Depends on the design. Some autos are more sensitive than others." It is an issue/potential with pistols. It does depend on the design--unfortunately, one of the more popular pistols in LE (which you regularly recommend to LEOs and private citizens) is perhaps the most prone of all current handguns designs to limp-wristing.
2. "This is a training issue." It is on the range. On the street, with adrenalin pumping and everything going wrong that can wrong, training can (usually) goes out the window--"plans are fine until the first bullet is fired." You can be forced to shoot in an awkward position. Your hands can be cold and wet and slippery (blood--which is very slick--on any other liquid). You can be wounded. You can be going into medical shock. On the street, you can limp wrist no matter how well-trained you are and no matter how good your intentions are.
3. "The revolver is difficult to fire for those of weak hand strength due to its DA pull. " It is difficult to rack the slide of pistol for those of weak hand strength. Generally, in dealing with those who have weak hands, you recommend a DA revolver because it is easier to pull the trigger (and you can always handcock if you are really struggling) than to rack a slide. Don't forget, it was SA Mireles wounded, one-handed and weak who put an end to the Great Miami Shoot-Out with a S&W Model 13 (revolver, PAT) loaded .38 Special LSWCHPs. Your grasping at straws, PAT.
4. " Also try reloading a auto one handed vs a revolver." Neither is particularly easy. Under ideal conditions (and if everything went right), it might be slightly easier with the pistol, but under combat conditions, it would be wash. It would be more complicated for the pistols if slide inadvertently dropped during the reloading process (relatively easy to do with the magazine out), and I would say you would be more likely to introduce debris/foreign objects into a pistol causing functioning during a one-handed reload under combat conditions. If I was really concerned this might be a signficant factor, I would opt for revolver with moon-clips--guaranteed one-handed faster reload than with any one-handed pistol reload.
I am not hung up on capacity. If I had the choice between a Glock 31 loaded with 6 rounds or a Smith 686 Plus with 7 I would take the glock.
PAT
I am glad to see you finally acknowledge capacity is a non-issue. Now, if you can refrain in the future from citing as issue in revolvers versus pistols threads, high capacity magazines threads, 357/.40/9 versus .45 ACP, I won't have to bookmark this thread so I come back here and quote you every time you bring it up.
For consistency's sake, you probably want to go back and remove all references you made to capacity in this thread alone otherwise some people might think you're either foolish or less than truthful.
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