Revolution Timing?
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johnwilliamson062
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It goes back and forth, but there is a general trend towards larger more controlling government.
Agreed. Our country is nowhere near the place where a revolution is necessary. I would like to see more conservative middle class working age people get involved in protests though. The upcoming 4/15 Tea Party and 2A march planed for next Spring are good signs. Lets face it, no one cares what a bunch of non-voting hippies and college kids say.
As long as I have the RKBA I have options. I am not cornered. When my RKBA is removed so are my options. THe others ARE more important, but it is very difficult to constrain them without first removing the RKBA. Of course I think it would be very hard to remove RKBA without first removing freedom of speech.
Aparently you have not spent much time around 18 year old males...
From what I have read and compiled, right now 55% of the US population relies on the US government for the majority of their income. When the US government owns 55% of the population, I am not so sure i am represented.
It was started as a Republic. It was meant to be a Republic. At this point it is much closer to a Democracy than the founders would have liked. If they had known people who did not pay taxes would end up voting I think they would have clarified that in the constitution.
One tenth of one percent of the United states is 300,000 people. THis is far far less than the number of active insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan combined. I believe the segment of the US population represented in the 1/10th of one percent would also be much better armed, supplied, and trained than those insurgents. Dealing with 5-10 Ruby Ridge/Waco situations at once would put major strains on Federal law enforcement. Are you all that sure when put in that perspective?
Who was the most powerful military power in 1776?
Our country is extremely soft. Both the attitudes of the people and our general structure. I am not saying the situation now calls for violent action, but anyone espousing the idea that it is impossible to succeed with this route b/c of new technologies needs to take another look.
Enough of this. It isn't time yet. Some people think it is and some people have already started to act, just read the news. John Brown was early too. THis might be a good time to skip a range trip and purchase a few books on small unit tactics, guerrilla tactics, and, most importantly, medical manuals. Che Guevarra was Castro's best resource b/c of his medical background. I don't think there was ever a time that wasn't good to read up on some of these things.
On the plus side I see a lot of people swinging away from the two party system and become more adamant supporters of reducing government size and expanding civil liberties. There just seems to be disagreement on which government programs and which civil liberties. Voinovich is not running in 2010 in part b/c many of his constituents are PO'd about how much wasteful pork he brought to the area. When people get PO'd about pork going to their own area things are looking up.
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A better question is whether or not it is murder at all. Are battlefield fatalities that occur in the course of a revolution murder? I say not. They are casualties of war. This is, of course, assuming that they are not the result of atrocities. Deliberate targeting of neutral non-combatants on either side IS murder.
So, do you consider the spilling of blood -- of tyrants and patriots -- during the course of justified revolution to be murder? You know, that blood that waters the tree of liberty that Thomas Jefferson spoke about? I, for one, do not. I consider it to be war and/or the carrying out of justice previously denied, which is something completely different than murder.
That people die in wars is a given. Combatants and noncombatants alike. It is part of the cost of war.
I ask you -- would you rather fight or be a slave? Would you resist or go to the gulag/death camps? Don't you realize that if/when the time for revolution/insurrection comes, the bodies will be in the ditches anyway? I, for one, will not go meekly to my death, nor will I meekly don the chains of slavery. There are worse things than war. Slavery and genocide, for instance. I'll fight, and I'll do so accepting the human cost because the cost of not fighting is so much worse. Your implication is that you feel that it is better to die quietly or live in chains than it is to resist tyranny as a free people.
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As a guy who spends about half my time in Africa(Kenya,Uganda, Liberia, DRC, CAR and Rawanda) I can tell you the last thing you want to see is a revolution. As WA said you will have to be prepared to commit murder and a lot of it. If there was an Armed revolution in the US it would be ugly and make the French revolution look like a Sunday school meeting.
Now as for a Voting revolution we better start one ASAP. The problem now is the Facebook/American Idol aspect of politics in this country and the Level of knowledge possessed by the majority of voters. I think there is going to be a lot of buyers remorse in the next few years and people are going to start wising up. If not this country is going to be like France with out a tower and an attitude. I was in Iraq when they had their 1st election in 04. They had to literally dodge bullets and bombs to vote. They could not even drive to town to vote(No cars allowed on the road). The voter turn out was 3 times higher than it is in America. That is sad and embarrassing. It just goes to show how complacent people have become.
For the guys that want an armed revolution here they need to get on a plane and do a nice little vacation to Liberia, Sierra Leon, Rawnda or maybe Cambodia. I think once you see what the after effects are you will cool down a little. Its not a pretty picture and it is not over in a few days or weeks. The after effects last for generations. I think it would be the Death Nell for this Republic as we know it and what would come after would be something none of us would want.
Chris B, I have used that method a time or two and you are right on, great Post! I think it would take at least a steak to lure me to the camps
But if it came down to going to a concentration camp or slavery I would not go meekly. If it came to me loosing my freedoms guaranteed by the constitution, I would not go meekly, but it would be a last resort because I know what my actions would cause. I have first hand knowledge of them.
Now as for a Voting revolution we better start one ASAP. The problem now is the Facebook/American Idol aspect of politics in this country and the Level of knowledge possessed by the majority of voters. I think there is going to be a lot of buyers remorse in the next few years and people are going to start wising up. If not this country is going to be like France with out a tower and an attitude. I was in Iraq when they had their 1st election in 04. They had to literally dodge bullets and bombs to vote. They could not even drive to town to vote(No cars allowed on the road). The voter turn out was 3 times higher than it is in America. That is sad and embarrassing. It just goes to show how complacent people have become.
For the guys that want an armed revolution here they need to get on a plane and do a nice little vacation to Liberia, Sierra Leon, Rawnda or maybe Cambodia. I think once you see what the after effects are you will cool down a little. Its not a pretty picture and it is not over in a few days or weeks. The after effects last for generations. I think it would be the Death Nell for this Republic as we know it and what would come after would be something none of us would want.
Chris B, I have used that method a time or two and you are right on, great Post! I think it would take at least a steak to lure me to the camps
But if it came down to going to a concentration camp or slavery I would not go meekly. If it came to me loosing my freedoms guaranteed by the constitution, I would not go meekly, but it would be a last resort because I know what my actions would cause. I have first hand knowledge of them.
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Not legal -- true, but immaterial. NO revolution has ever been "legal" because no tyranny will ever condone the fighting against it, it isn't a survival trait for tyrants. Not antebellum, anyway. Legality comes during or after the fight. That captured/defeated revolutionaries have been prosecuted and executed for murder/treason throughout the ages is, of course, undeniable. It is the norm. But that doesn't factor into whether a revolution can or should occur. Mostly, they happen because those revolting have no other options, they have nothing to lose by doing so. They would have been murdered/enslaved no matter what. The cost for doing so was no worse than the cost for not doing so, and in doing so they give themselves and the people hope where there was no hope.
Not winnable -- not true. You make the assumption that the military will cling to the tyrants en masse. That hasn't been historically the case. Many, if not most, revolutions happen alongside and supported by mass defections of the standing military to the revolutionaries' side. The soldiers are of the people, you know. Added, you have to ask whether a sizable portion of the military will engage in operations against their own people? What portion of the military at any one time is composed of patriots? The point is that the overwhelming nature of our own military does not mean that revolution against our government is doomed to fail. Doing so makes the assumption that:
> the military will fight against their own people.
> the military will not substantially defect to the side of the revolutionaries, bringing their weapons with them.
Remember what happened in our own fratricidal war in the 1860's (that it wasn't a real revolution is a matter for another discussion thread, and doesn't really matter to this one). Substantial portions of the antebellum military went to the side of the Confederacy. Don't be so sure that much, if not most, of our military wouldn't do likewise should a modern day revolt occur against a truly tyranical .gov. That would tip the scales in the revolutionaries favor.
Remember as well the numerous revolutions during the formative years of Great Britain. Many were quashed, it is true. But many weren't, and helped make the ideological foundations of our own republic. Remember, as well, the revolution in Texas in the mid 1830's. The colonists were completely outclassed by the Mexican government forces, and yet they revolted anyway, they had no other options as free men. Outclassed or not, even without defections from the Mexican Army, they (we) still prevailed.
The prudent man does not shout, "Molon Labe," while there are still many other avenues with which to work with.
On the question of murder, the answer is actually very easy.
If you win your revolution, then it was not murder.
If you lose... All bets are off and being charged with murder is going to be the least of your worries.
What happens during this hypothetical conflict, if you are captured by the "Tories?" You will be held as a terrorist, at the very least. Your family and many of your friends, who may not be involved in the fighting, will be rounded up and treated as terrorists themselves. The other end of that stick is that you will be tried in a military court as a traitor.
Washington, Madison, Jefferson and their like are only remembered as Patriots, because they won. If they had lost, they would merely be a footnote in the annals of history, as Traitors to the Crown.
So it would be for those who would support armed insurrection.
Revolutions are not clean little things. They are dirty, messy affairs and filled with more blood and death than most Americans can think of... Let alone stand.
Sam06 and kestak have nailed it. gb_in_ga has completely overlooked the carnage in favor of his screed.
On the question of murder, the answer is actually very easy.
If you win your revolution, then it was not murder.
If you lose... All bets are off and being charged with murder is going to be the least of your worries.
What happens during this hypothetical conflict, if you are captured by the "Tories?" You will be held as a terrorist, at the very least. Your family and many of your friends, who may not be involved in the fighting, will be rounded up and treated as terrorists themselves. The other end of that stick is that you will be tried in a military court as a traitor.
Washington, Madison, Jefferson and their like are only remembered as Patriots, because they won. If they had lost, they would merely be a footnote in the annals of history, as Traitors to the Crown.
So it would be for those who would support armed insurrection.
Revolutions are not clean little things. They are dirty, messy affairs and filled with more blood and death than most Americans can think of... Let alone stand.
Sam06 and kestak have nailed it. gb_in_ga has completely overlooked the carnage in favor of his screed.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Then your answer is "yes, I would man the firing squads"
I make no implication at all. All I want people to think about is whether they are willing to be part of the bloodshed.
Thomas Jeffersons words are very nice. I am sure that they were solace to White Russian soldiers thrown alive into rivers, or petit bourgeousie who mounted the scaffold over Liberte, Egalite, among others.
Remember...those who oppose the revolution are counterrevolutionaries
Wildalaska
Moderator
Until history judges you
WildofftoanotherdayofagonyAlaska TM
No, actually I haven't. I'm well aware that war is terrible, being a former soldier myself. Fratricidal war tends to be even worse. I'm well aware of that.
But the alternative to a JUSTIFIABLE fratricidal war is even worse yet. When the time comes, there will be no alternative and the carnage will happen one way or the other.
There are worse things than blood running in the streets. Genocide, kowtowing to tyrants and the extinguishing of the flame of liberty are among them.
There are things that are worth fighting for. There are things that are worth fighting, to the point of extinction, for.
If you don't understand that, then you just don't get it.
I go back to where I referred to post WWI Russia and '30s Germany. In the one case armed conflict happened where the wrong side won, and blood ran in the streets both during and after the conflict. Mass deaths happened even though people stood up to the tyrants, both in the streets as well as the gulags. We do know that the deaths would have occurred anyway. In the other, we have a massive bloody war that was MUCH worse than what would have happened had an internal revolution happened at the proper time. Genocide, slavery and massive battlefield casualties. The blood ran freely in the streets as well as in the death camps. Millions upon millions of needless deaths. All because the people did not stand up to a slick talking genocidal tyrant.
There is another element to this that has not been discussed; What is the rest of the world going to do while armed revolution is happening in America? NATO the UN, Canada, Mexico, Russia, China: what are they going to be doing while all this is going on? Not watching it on CNN I can guarantee that. I am not as smart as some on this forum but I cannot think of a single Armed Revolution that has not had some kind of outside intervention of some type(In the last 20 years).
So while we are all running around with our deer rifles, dressed like ninjas what is the rest of the world going to do while the most powerful country in the world self destructs? I will tell you they will dismantle it. Then you would have a 3 or 4 way gun fight going on and that = Anarchy. If we were lucky I could see the US looking like Somalia. That is not a very pleasant picture in my mind.
So while we are all running around with our deer rifles, dressed like ninjas what is the rest of the world going to do while the most powerful country in the world self destructs? I will tell you they will dismantle it. Then you would have a 3 or 4 way gun fight going on and that = Anarchy. If we were lucky I could see the US looking like Somalia. That is not a very pleasant picture in my mind.
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Greetings,
Wow...Very nice conversation. I am impressed.
One thing people must keep in mind: The Amerecan revolution war lasted from 1775 to 1783 and all along less than 10% of the population participated actively and NEVER the majority of the population would think it will work.
One other thing: France revolution was 2 revolutions in one. The first one against the Monarchy and the second one against the revolutioners. The guillotines severed the heads of those who sent the monarchs to the guillotine a few months later. Napoleon was saved at the last moment. Also, the French revolution was litterally the first socialist revolution. Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite is based on socialistic dogma.
Thank you
Thank you
Wow...Very nice conversation. I am impressed.
One thing people must keep in mind: The Amerecan revolution war lasted from 1775 to 1783 and all along less than 10% of the population participated actively and NEVER the majority of the population would think it will work.
One other thing: France revolution was 2 revolutions in one. The first one against the Monarchy and the second one against the revolutioners. The guillotines severed the heads of those who sent the monarchs to the guillotine a few months later. Napoleon was saved at the last moment. Also, the French revolution was litterally the first socialist revolution. Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite is based on socialistic dogma.
Thank you
Thank you
Nor in mine, and yes I realize that. The thing you don't get is that the picture in my mind of what happens if we DON'T do that at the appropriate time is just as bad if not worse.
I'd rather have war and anarchy in the pursuit of or the resurrection of freedom with the hope that something good may come of it in the end, than the certainty of living in chains and/or dieing quietly in the gulag/death camps.
Deer rifles? Yep, at first. That doesn't mean that I'd be fighting with such long term -- just long enough to obtain something more appropriate. Remember the rationale behind the FP-45 Liberator. The purpose wasn't to fight the war using a crappy pistol like that, the point was that it was good enough to shoot an enemy soldier and take his weapon. Historically, the peasants may have started their uprising with pitchforks but they picked up pikes and muskets as they went along.
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johnwilliamson062
Moderator
The really interesting thing is going to be what the reaction to this 4/15 Tea Party will be.
TO my knowledge this is really the first time a mass demonstration has occurred in the US involving primarily tax payers. For a government official that is very scary.
Of course I don't think it deserves to be called the "Tea Party" because the Boston Tea Party was obviously a little destructive and this is supposed to be quite calm and I expect it to turn out to be quite calm.
How about a bunch of guys dressed up like al quaida going to gas stations and running the pumps into the streets. Boy the EPA would love that. I hope the thread doesn't get locked over that. It was the least effective/most absurd example of a tax protest modeled after the Boston Tea Party I could come up with.
TO my knowledge this is really the first time a mass demonstration has occurred in the US involving primarily tax payers. For a government official that is very scary.
Of course I don't think it deserves to be called the "Tea Party" because the Boston Tea Party was obviously a little destructive and this is supposed to be quite calm and I expect it to turn out to be quite calm.
How about a bunch of guys dressed up like al quaida going to gas stations and running the pumps into the streets. Boy the EPA would love that. I hope the thread doesn't get locked over that. It was the least effective/most absurd example of a tax protest modeled after the Boston Tea Party I could come up with.
Mike Irwin
Staff
OK, this is starting to get just a little on the silly side with some of the comments that have been posted recently.
Ninjas?
Al Queda gas pump jockeys?
Sigh.
I'd like to thank everyone for keeping it on top, and within the boundaries I originally laid out, for as long as you did.
But, it's time for the thread to close.
Ninjas?
Al Queda gas pump jockeys?
Sigh.
I'd like to thank everyone for keeping it on top, and within the boundaries I originally laid out, for as long as you did.
But, it's time for the thread to close.
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