Revisiting 1986 shootout - Interesting to see people with GSWs continue to fight

I am surprised the 12 gauge didn't stop the fight.
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If luck had been with the agents that day, it would have.

As Leadcounsel has expressed in detail, this was first and foremost a failure of planning before the encounter and a failure of tactics during the encounter. Only secondarily can it be said that it was a failure of a bullet to penetrate far enough.

I still contend that if those agents had entered the fight all armed with modern 40 cal pistols, it still might have goon badly for them. If you unholster your pistol and lay it on the passenger seat, and then crash your car and loose the gun, it doesn't matter what kind of gun it was.

But if they had gone into the fight with better tactics, AR-15s, MP-5s, and shotguns, Platt and Matix would very likely have been defeated early. These weapons were available to the agents. Since they initiated the encounter, they should have controlled the circumstances a little better.

A shotgun with buckshot has some impressive advantages, but some important limitations as well. It is a short range weapon. 30 to 40 yards, and the closer the better. It does not penetrate barriers well. But on the plus side, it is the ideal weapon to engage a rapidly moving target. For a given point of aim, a clean miss with a rifle can be a good hit with a shotgun, If/when you do get a solid hit, the tissue damage is very severe and blood loss is very rapid. Get 4 or more pellets into the lungs, and blood loss is catastrophic. Ever see a deer hit in the chest with buckshot? They bleed out like a sponge.

Unfortunately, the only time the agents were able to use their shotguns was when the two badguys were still sheltered by automotive glass, and thus it was not very effective.
 
One of the most useful takeaways from that event is a reminder for us all to never underestimate our opponents. Unfortunately they do get a say-so.
 
Well, Sevens, I am with you on learning more from this chain of events then endless analysis if one bullet, which is interesting but limited given that modern bonded HP ammo is far more capable.

We had a couple of incidents in Oregon, one was a murder of a lone shooter at a USFS gravel pit and another was the shooting of s couple in a remote USFS campsite. The shooter stopped and chatted with them around the campfire and later in the night returned and shot them in their tent to get their guns.

I think about these situations when I go shooting at forest gravel pits. Situational awareness.

Since I don't shoot 9mm Silvertips I won't worry too much about penetration. But if I had those I would still think I was pretty well armed for 99% of self defense situations. Tactics were much more at fault than one bullet's performance. Like my old FB coach used to say, if you are blaming a loss on one play or one call then you did not play hard enough or smart enough.
 
Well, Sevens, I am with you on learning more from this chain of events then endless analysis if one bullet, which is interesting but limited given that modern bonded HP ammo is far more capable.

We had a couple of incidents in Oregon, one was a murder of a lone shooter at a USFS gravel pit and another was the shooting of s couple in a remote USFS campsite. The shooter stopped and chatted with them around the campfire and later in the night returned and shot them in their tent to get their guns.

I think about these situations when I go shooting at forest gravel pits. Situational awareness.

Since I don't shoot 9mm Silvertips I won't worry too much about penetration. But if I had those I would still think I was pretty well armed for 99% of self defense situations. Tactics were much more at fault than one bullet's performance. Like my old FB coach used to say, if you are blaming a loss on one play or one call then you did not play hard enough or smart enough.
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Great post, neighbor.
 
wait wait wait...

[sarcasm]

How does realizing that criminals might target and murder isolated recreational shooters for their guns lead to any revelations about training or tactics?

I thought Tactics and Training was about chest thumping and gear glamorizing.

I don't even see how I can nitpick the tactics or weapon selection by government agents at an event I wasn't at.

Next you'll be telling me that criminals move around so proper shot placement becomes difficult.

[/sarcasm]

Sevens, its a darn good point and one that the shooting community forgets or wants to forget. Guns help us to be more able to defend ourselves, but they can also attract the wrong type of attention. Be safe; bring a buddy when you can.
 
I think the most important thing to remember about the Miami shootout is that there were MANY contributing factors to the poor outcome. Human factors, equipment choices, tactical choices, mindset, situational awareness, all of these things created the context for this shootout.

One thing I consider a truism is that the actor who feels he has nothing to lose, expects to die, and is not afraid of dying, has a decided psychological advantage over the guy who just wants to go home alive at the end of the day. And that simply is something you cannot teach.
 
and maybe did not expand like it would have had it hit something more solid.
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Actually HP bullets generally expand fully within the first few inches in flesh so expansion was not inhibited by not hitting a solid object first.

Also if the HP does hit something solid it looses KE and decreases penetration substantially. Even worse the design of most HP are flawed when hitting bone in that the tip clogs and fails to expand. Though velocity still remains enough (most of the time) when a HP fails to expand to penetrate a good 8"+, the lack of expansion defeats the purpose of the HP and unless it hits Spine, heart, or brain it likely will have a fast acting stopping effect on criminals like these.
 
Csmss. Good point. The "this is just a job" guy versus the guy who is heck bent on going down in flames and taking every one with him. Very troubling
 
a lot of blame was put on the win sthp 115gr. 9mm for its lack of performance; when in fact the round performed as designed, it was simply misapplied.
 
This was not police work/tactics. This was FBI work/tactics. No matter what anyone may think, the FBI is not the police.

I was also a police officer when this happened. And the tactics were studied again and again. Outside the classroom we all asked.."what could they have been thinking?" The police probably would have done it differently. They also may have gotten the same results. It was what it was... I dont see any need to criticize the agents, or the agency. Whats important now is that everyone learn from it. Those agents should not have lost their lives in vain.

Contrary to what anyone may think... It's pretty hard to kill someone. Human beings are incredibly resiliant. The idea of a one shot stop in the torso is unlikely. A shot to the head may not result in a one shot stop. People have been shot multiple times and survived. Even those shot fatally take time to die.
 
Contrary to what anyone may think... It's pretty hard to kill someone. Human beings are incredibly resiliant.
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In the near term, yes- if the person is determined to fight.

If he is not, then he has already lost.

Modern human beings are generally pretty fragile creatures ......
 
a lot of blame was put on the win sthp 115gr. 9mm for its lack of performance; when in fact the round performed as designed, it was simply misapplied.
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Most 9mm today performs much better IMO and if it performed as designed then there was a design flaw?! In what way was it misapplied?

I hold the belief that the round had penetration problems.
As an example to penetration in some of todays 9mm ( 9mm Gold Dot 115 GRN HP) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2s82NCLKQI

Penetration depth 17.5".

Here Hornady XTP 115 GRN HP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SawaatDRXRo

Penetration depth 15"

Here is a Winchester 115 GRN STHP http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IM5xqukPo

Penetration depth 9"

Some believe 9" is enough while others don't. I don't. Too much bone to deplete energy if hit for one. However there were many problems that day that lead to the disaster even if the 9mm STHP was insufficient.
 
The event was the end result of a long chain of bad decisions and bad luck. Men died because of it.

I understand how stress and circumstances affect things, and I've read the FBI report and various synposes. I'm going to say this, not to cast aspersions on the agents, but to highlight something that looks more like an institutional problem than an individual one:

Their "shots fired" to "kills" ratio stank. It doesn't matter what your magazine capacity is if you're not hitting the target.

Afterward, the FBI revised their training procedures. Higher-capacity pistols were only part of that, but that's what the press seemed to concentrate on. Guys sitting in a classroom or standing at the firing line aren't nearly as interesting as shiny new toys.
 
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