Revisiting 1986 shootout - Interesting to see people with GSWs continue to fight

I'd been in LE just a few years at the time of the '86 FBI incident.

Yes, it caused quite a review of tactics and equipment (including guns & ammo). As has already been mentioned, if one of the roving units armed with SMG's had been involved, it might have turned out quite differently.

If it had turned out differently, it might not have become one of those watershed moments in LE. We might not have seen the civilian introduction of the 147gr 9mm JHP, the LE use of 10mm or the development of the .40 S&W (which would also mean no use of the .40 S&W case to develop the .357SIG).

The CHP/Newhall incident in '70 and the North Hollywood Bank Robbery in '97 were also watershed moments in LE when it came to training, tactics, officer safety and re-evaluating equipment.

Unfortunately, there's no shortage of such tragic incidents. Look at the '09 murder of 4 Oakland PD officers by a convicted felon wanted on a no-bail warrant for a parole violation, and the murders of the 4 Lakewood PD officers in the same year.
 
Please note that I have adjusted the arm penetration estimate of 6" in my previous post to a calculated figure of 5" based on the scale provided in II-A. This is a conservative figure since there is some foreshortening (perspective distortion) in the photograph which would result in making a precise measurement underestimate the penetration slightly.
In regard to the illustrations, they're depictions of what may have happened.
...
The illustration of the bullet's path through Platt's upper arm (Figure II-3) is different in the 3rd printing than the bullet path depicted in in the Paladin Press version. It appears to have been changed as a result of this information:
I'm not talking about illustrations, I'm referring to an autopsy photograph (which I provided as a clickable link) with an included scale and showing an inserted probe.

Unless there's proof the photo is faked or doctored there's no way to explain how it would be different in different printings.
Figure II-2, which depicts Platt crawling out the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, shows the bullet striking his upper arm in the area of the triceps muscle, and is not accurate when one compares it to the autopsy photo...
That is correct. However, correcting the error so that the wound matches the autopsy photo doesn't substantially change the position of the arm--other than the illustration shows the armed turned inwards slightly more than it actually was. If anything, the error in the figure implies less penetration that the actual photograph shows.
If you press your upper arm against your chest then you'll see that what appears to be 6" of penetration through the arm (as it seems in autopsy photo Plate II-A) becomes about 3" inches.
The problem is that if the arm were pressed against the chest there would be no way the bullet could have taken the path that it did.

The autopsy photograph II-A (not an illustration--an actual photograph) demonstrates that the bullet entered the front of the arm just above (and inside) the bend of the elbow and exited about an inch or two below the armpit. For the bullet to have taken that path and continued into the chest, penetrating horizontally to the midline, the arm would have to be outstretched, at an angle only slightly lower than horizontal.

There are two figures (II-2, and II-3) (illustrations) in Anderson's book showing Platt's position when this bullet hit him and both of them show his right arm outstretched, just as I have described it. With good reason--that's the only position that is consistent with the bullet's established trajectory.

If his arm had been pressed against his chest, the bullet would have had to exit the arm travelling nearly parallel to the arm and then make a nearly 90 degree turn before entering the chest and penetrating at nearly right angles to the arm until it reached the body midline as shown in the autopsy X-Ray and autopsy diagrams. Clearly that doesn't make sense.

That explanation should suffice, but it's really not necessary because Plate II-B (photograph) eliminates any questions. For the wound channels to line up as shown by the inserted probe, the arm must be outstretched, leaving a gap of approximately 2.5" between the arm exit wound and the chest entry wound and eliminating any possibility that the arm was pressed against the chest when the shot struck Platt.

Plate II-B (autopsy photo of Platt's armpit) clearly shows how high up in the arm pit area the bullet was when it exited the arm and entered the chest.
What II-B (autopsy photograph with an inserted probe and provided scale) clearly shows is that with the probe inserted through the arm wound and into the chest wound (lining them up as they would have been at the time the wound was administered) that there has to be a gap between the arm exit wound and the chest entry wound of about 2.5" when the arm is positioned properly to line up the two wound paths.

<<<I'm not going to embed the picture since it's a little gory. Click here to see it.>>>
Cropped and re-annotated portion of Plate 11-B from p46 of Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight by W. French Anderson, M.D., Published by Paladin Press, 1996, 2006

There is no room for debate because there is no perspective distortion in the photograph and the provided scale in the photo is conveniently positioned so that it is aligned with the probe to facilitate determining the actual scale.

This clearly demonstrates that the arm exit wound was an unshored exit and that the arm could not have been pressed against the chest when the bullet hit Platt.

The photographs and X-Ray tell the story and leave no room for debate. Short of proving that the photos and X-Ray in Anderson's book are doctored/faked or that Platt's chest was remarkably small for a man his height and weight, it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate that an 8" total penetration figure could possibly be accurate. For what it's worth, there is no indication in the autopsy notes that Platt's chest was unusually small, nor do the crime scene photographs of Platt (see Plate IV-F on p 84 of Anderson's book) suggest such a thing.

The arm penetration is easily determined to be 5" from autopsy photograph II-A. That means that if 8" is actually the total penetration, it must have taken only 3" of penetration to penetrate from under Platt's right armpit to about an inch short of midline on his chest. That could only be realistic if Platt's chest measured 8" or less from side to side at his armpits--half of what would be normal for someone his size.

The 8" penetration figure makes sense if it ONLY takes the chest penetration into account, but not if it is supposed to be a total penetration figure. From what I can find on the web, a man who is about 5'9" tall (an inch shorter than Platt) would be expected to have a chest width of about 16". Based on the autopsy X-Ray, the bullet penetrated half of Platt's chest less about an inch. That would be about 7" of penetration which is close enough to the 8" figure you are quoting to be reasonable.
 

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Constantine said...
If they had modern JHP technology, it would have been a whole different ball game

markj replied...
With the body armour they were wearing?

Platt and Matix were not wearing body armor at all, markj.

DasGuy said...
I'm always amused when performance of the 9mm rounds used that day is brought up as to why things went the way they did. I've read multiple after action reports of cops getting into fights with a bad guy, putting 15-20 rounds into them (most center mass) before getting them to stop. And that's with the magical calibers .40 and .45 with modern JHP ammunition.

Yet you never hear ammunition's "lack of performance" questioned with those rounds.

Sure you do! This thread is a classic discussion of the "failure" of the .40 and .223...which didn't fail so much as "shot placement" failed.

What people in that analysis and in the Miami shootout have often forgotten when claiming lack of performance often forget that "shot placement" is nothing without penetration and trajectory. You must have all three. The bullet must enter the body at a given location with the correct trajectory such that if it has the ability to penetrate, that it will penetrate to the necessary vitals.

Many things can sidetrack proper trajectory and penetration, such as deflection. Look, people have been shot in the head with centerfire rifle calibers that didn't penetrate. It happens. That is a reality of terminal ballistics.

Peppering people repeatedly with non-fatal and non-immediately fatal wounds doesn't do a whole lot to shut them down biologically until you either accumulate so many wounds that the BP drops off or the non-immediately fatal wounds manage to finally become fatal.
 
Peppering people repeatedly with non-fatal and non-immediately fatal wounds doesn't do a whole lot to shut them down biologically until you either accumulate so many wounds that the BP drops off or the non-immediately fatal wounds manage to finally become fatal.
Exactly, can say it many ways and it still makes sense.

Brings up a point to make when inquiring as to why center mass is considered the go to point without alternatives built into practice. Some changes need to be made, though they have little to do with this thread from a history standpoint. So I will bow out gracefully and save that for a better day.

Sheriff made a statement to me one day: "The bad guys have the lucky bullets, the good guys have to make their own luck and those who don't believe in luck usually catch unlucky bullets."
 
I was 15 years old when this happened and not cognizant of the news of the day. I first learned of it by an extensive (at the time) magazine article written by Massad Ayoob maybe a year or two after it happened.

I have since seen it mentioned, referred to, and like in this thread - dissected a number of times in gun forums.

It is an interesting and historic event.
Seems the lesson learned would be
...this brings me to my point.

Here in gun forums, a tremendous "lesson" of this event rarely seems to bubble to the surface. Perhaps some would view it as a side-bar, but for most regular "gun guys" like all of us, a very big lesson that is rarely mentioned and usually missed is the where and how the bad guys got some of the weapons they used in this event, including the Mini-14.

Folks like ourselves should take THAT away from this event.
 
I say it does matter, especially to us.

They got some of those guns (the Mini-14 specifically) by murdering a recreational shooter who was out shooting somewhere in a secluded area enjoying himself.
 
but for most regular "gun guys" like all of us, a very big lesson that is rarely mentioned and usually missed is the where and how the bad guys got some of the weapons they used in this event, including the Mini-14.

I'd say that is about the least relevant of factors. And thinking that it is important would lead someone to draw very dangerous anti-gun 'Brady Bunch' conclusions... namely registration, confiscation, mandatory gun locks, keeping guns under lock and key at gun clubs, and ultimately total bans.

Bad guys will always get guns, drugs, etc. It's just a fact of life. These guys committed crimes to get them, and for instance, the criminals in the LA bank robbery used illegal guns - or modified them to fire full auto illegally.

As said above, once the shooting starts, the where and why is irrelevant. It's just you, them, training, equipment, and dumb luck.
 
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Sheeesh, the view of the forest seems to be blocked by all these trees. :rolleyes:

I'm merely trying to say that gun folks spend a lot of time dissecting this (which is fine) but a part of it that we can learn from is rarely mentioned: be safe, be aware, as always, but especially when you are out shooting somewhere. Perhaps more so when you think or believe you are out in the boonies by your lonesome.

These two murdered a recreational shooter (who was out shooting) to get some of these guns.

This is the kind of thing that could happen to any one of us.
Likely?! No.
Of course, it's unlikely that we'll be in the position to compare 9mm/.38/12ga/.223 wounds in a four-minute violent gun battle in a city landscape on a sunny afternoon also.
 
As said above, once the shooting starts, the where and why is irrelevant. It's just you, them, training, equipment, and dumb luck.

true enough, but there are things that matter, before the shooting starts. The bad guys in Miami murdered, or tried to, recreational shooters for their cars and guns, MORE THAN ONCE, and the FBI knew it.

They knew these guys were not just bank robbers, they were killers. Apparently, what they didn't know (or acted like they didn't know) was that these killers would just as happily kill LEOs as civilians.

I think the point is being brought up, not for its impact on the actions after the shooting started, but on the actions and decisions that led to the shooting, where, and when it did happen.

Also to warn readers not fully familiar with the incident. Not everyone who comes by, is friendly , talks guns & shooting with you when you are out plinking in a remote location turns out to be a friend.....
 
They knew these guys were not just bank robbers, they were killers. Apparently, what they didn't know (or acted like they didn't know) was that these killers would just as happily kill LEOs as civilians.

Thank you for backing up my point about the FBI training, tactics, and weapons. You can't control the actions of the other party, but the FBI could and should have wiped these guys clean had they used training and weapons available in 1986. Standoff with AR15s, Thompsons, MP5s, Shotgun slugs, Uzi's, etc. would have effectively ended this, likely with overwhelming numbers and weapons. Cover fire while the pinned agent(s) withdrew, then siege tactics or a coordinated flanking assault. These tactics go back centuries - and were likely known intimately by the agents with former military training or war experience.

Instead, rushing in with individual agents with 5 or 6 shot .38 revolvers was simply unacceptable, IMO, even for 1986, and particularly given the intelligence they had on these guys (hardened well-armed killers). Unnecessary, low success probability, and extremely high risk. These agents showed courage and resolve, but were also quite foolish.
 
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The problem is that if the arm were pressed against the chest there would be no way the bullet could have taken the path that it did.

The evidence that Platt's upper arm was against his chest is the exit wound on the inside of arm. The wound is a simple hole and is created by the bullet crushing the skin as it exits. If Platt's upper arm was not in contact with the side of his chest then the exit wound would be much larger and there would be radial tears.

The autopsy photo shows the arm extended however the small exit wound, which matches the diameter of the entrance wound to the side of his chest, is evidence that his his arm was retracted and against his chest when the bullet exited his arm and penetrated his chest as he crawled out the passenger side window of the wrecked Monte Carlo.
 
I only know what I do about this event reading the threads on this site when they come up so maybe what I am about to say has already been expressed.

Looking at the photo of the arm the bullet entered and traveled along the muscle. Probably not as much resistance to it's travel as crossways and maybe did not expand like it would have had it hit something more solid.

Even if the arm wasn't against the chest maybe the skin could have stretched enough to come into contact with the chest before the bullet penetrated the skin on the arm.

Xray shows an expanded bullet but maybe the bullet didn't expand much until it hit the muscle and cartilidge in the chest wall. Also the xray doesn't show any rib damage. Maybe there is some just outside of the xray view. If it went between the ribs that could also explain his ability to keep fighting for at least a few more minutes. A solid hit on a rib with the shock transferred to the spine might have stopped him right then.

I know, Lots of maybe's.

Have a great day!
James
 
I say it does matter, especially to us.

They got some of those guns (the Mini-14 specifically) by murdering a recreational shooter who was out shooting somewhere in a secluded area enjoying himself.

Okay, you think it matters, but in the grand scheme, it really doesn't. When the shooting starts, it doesn't matter if the gun was procured legally or not. They are just tools regardless of provenance.

Did P&M expand their armory by robbing and shooting recreational shooters? Yep. Does this happen with any notable frequency? Nope. Does it happen with any notable frequency that the guns are then used by Special Forces-trained former US military types to rob banks? Nope.

P&M could have purchased more guns had they been so inclined. At the time of the recreational shooters being shot, neither P or M were precluded from purchasing firearms and were not known to be wanted by the law. There would have been nothing to stop them from purchasing the guns brand new and they could have had the exact same guns for the shootout that were purchased at a sporting goods store.
 
Even if the arm wasn't against the chest maybe the skin could have stretched enough to come into contact with the chest before the bullet penetrated the skin on the arm.
A very apt observation.
The evidence that Platt's upper arm was against his chest is the exit wound on the inside of arm. The wound is a simple hole and is created by the bullet crushing the skin as it exits. If Platt's upper arm was not in contact with the side of his chest then the exit wound would be much larger and there would be radial tears.
The evidence that his arm was not against his chest is very clear and can not be dismissed. The inserted probe shows that there is a gap of 2.5" between the arm exit wound and the chest entrance wound and that the arm must be extended in order for the wound channels to line up.

So we have a contradiction? Not at all. Clearly his ARM was not in contact with his chest. But assuming your interpretation is correct, it does suggest that the SKIN of the upper arm did make contact with the chest before the bullet broke through.

Your interpretation of the wound appearance, in conjunction with the autopsy photograph showing the necessary gap, would mean that the bullet stretched the skin enough to bridge the gap and that the skin actually made contact with the chest before the bullet broke the skin. I'm about Platt's size and weight, and the skin on the inside of my upper arm will easily stretch 2.5".

That would make the exit sort of a cross between shored and unshored, I suppose. The bullet had to expend energy stretch the skin, but likely not as much as would have been required had the skin not come into contact with the chest before the bullet broke through.
...his his arm was retracted and against his chest when the bullet exited his arm and penetrated his chest as he crawled out the passenger side window of the wrecked Monte Carlo.
We know beyond a shadow of a doubt from the autopsy photograph that the arm wasn't against his chest because the autopsy photos clearly show that the arm must be extended for the wound channels to line up.

If Platt's arm had been against his chest, that would have required the bullet to travel nearly parallel with the arm for about 5" and then turn and travel into the chest at nearly right angles to the arm after exiting the arm. That's obviously nonsense.

The whole point of the autopsy photo with the probe inserted is to align the wound channels to demonstrate the position of the arm at the time the bullet struck.
 
Okay, you think it matters, but in the grand scheme, it really doesn't.
It baffles me how my point is repeatedly lost... and worse, some think that I have some mysterious hidden "gun ban" agenda. For cryin' out loud, I have a history on this site -- I'm pro2a and active in my state level organization.

The discussions often ask "what can we learn from this event?" and with great vigor we discuss which calibers & loads did what matter of damage to the combatants, what the immediate results were, what the eventual results were, etc etc.

All I'm saying is that if you really want to learn something useful from this (and in the event you don't happen to be either LE or a bloody murderer & bank robber) then something you might consider taking away from the event is that you too could be murdered in a field for only one reason, that reason you happened to be out in that field having yourself a happy little range day and it made you a specific target for a pair of killers who wanted guns.

That's not likely to happen to you...
But it's probably more likely to happen to you than the chance of getting in to a wild, historic, epic big-city shootout.

But if this is simply a discussion of what a 9mm slug will do to a psychopath when it tears through his arm and subsequently enters his torso... that's fine. It is a discussion forum, afterall.
 
The discussions often ask "what can we learn from this event?" and with great vigor we discuss which calibers & loads did what matter of damage to the combatants, what the immediate results were, what the eventual results were, etc etc.

Right, what can we learn from THE EVENT, and NOT what happened in the days or weeks BEFORE the event.
All I'm saying is that if you really want to learn something useful from this (and in the event you don't happen to be either LE or a bloody murderer & bank robber) then something you might consider taking away from the event is that you too could be murdered in a field for only one reason, that reason you happened to be out in that field having yourself a happy little range day and it made you a specific target for a pair of killers who wanted guns.

Not part of THE EVENT, but totally separate events not actually part of the shootout itself.

That is why your point keeps being lost.
 
In the end, it's mechanical, hydraulic or electrical:

Cut the muscles and tendons-
Remove BP and/or visceral pressure-
Cut off nerve impulses that control the attacking limbs or CNS-

You need to put something into the bad guy that will do one or all of those to impact them, and in a vital area if you want to stop a fight. I find it interesting that one that that could have changed THIS fight THIS time with THESE circumstances is that substituting one ball round for one hollow point might have put a hydraulic failure on one of the bad guys sooner.


Larry
 
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