Results of my Open Carry Wal-Mart complaint

[johnwilliamson062]

we had a lot more freedoms than we have now because the younger generations gave them away. Shame on them.

Where were you when this was happening? We lost almost all of these freedoms before i could read or write and we started getting them back about the same time I got my drivers license. Shame on you who stood by as these freedoms were given away. The "Greatest Generation" and the "Boomers" handed me a bankrupt country with a heavily eroded constitution, both of which happened on their watch.

Can you show just ONE case in which open carry among civillians led directly to public acceptance of firearm possession?

I already did.

Police officers on duty also carry a badge when they carry a weapon.

You can buy an almost identical badge at a flea market or a truly identical one here.

They have also been TRAINED in the use of their weapons.

From this statement I can assume you have almost no LEO friends. If you did they would tell you that about 10% of police officers have any idea what they are doing with a firearm. My Sheriff is down to shooting 36 rounds a year for state qualification. No rounds with their shotguns and def none with the M-16s DOD lent them. Of course, some of them are "shooters" and send thousands of rounds down range each year, go to training classes, etc, but most just like the pay and benefits.

But when they're off duty, I've never heard of ONE who carries a handgun openly.

Not at all irregular around me.

Never let someone know you have a gun. If it gets hairy the bad guys will pick you out FIRST.

If the bad guy is willing to continue with his plans even though there is someone openly armed around things are probably getting hairy anyways.

Open carry is fine if you live in a rural area, but if you live in a large
city you become a target, so be prepared for actual combat.

So what, gangs now have initiations where they go out and shoot an OCer? What a joke.

Believe me, the caller will enjoy watching you get a faceplant and handcuffed on the asphalt, even though you've done nothing wrong.

I will enjoy it also. I will be getting a big fat paycheck later on.

Have you ever took a real training Course??

I like how you seem to think a payed course from an NRA instructor or such is the only training out there. One on one with someone who has been in a gunfight a couple times probably doesn't count in your book.

...you are wrong a professional will always take out the first guy he sees with a firearm.

When are professionals in these shootings? Maybe in a bank robbery this could be an issue, but in almost no other situation. On the street they are going to look for an easier target even if they are a "professional" and active shooters almost always go to gun free zones for a reason. There aren't any fact to back your assertion up b/c criminals aren't stupid enough to attack someone who open carries when they can wait five minutes for an easier target.

When you get into a bad situation training and proper training is your only defense.

I know a guy who trains constantly. He has taken several classes although none at really high dollar places like thunder ranch. He practices drawing from a holster almost daily. He freezes. All the time. One of the worst I know. Saying training classes will get you through a bad situation is like saying riding coasters will get you through a dogfight. Your mind knows the tracks aren't there anymore. Of course, training does help.

 

[NavyLT]

TOM RENZO,

All I am asking for is for you to provide us a real life example of an open carrying citizen, not a uniformed guard or not a uniformed armed security person who has been shot first in a crime because they were carrying a firearm. That's all. How hard could that be to do? Maybe your inability to provide us with an example is because it doesn't happen in real life.

My professional training in armed combat teaches me to take out the opposing force which is deploying the greatest threat first. But we aren't talking about professional soldiers in combat (well maybe where you live, but not where I live). We are talking about a criminal whose first two priorities are not to get shot and not to get caught while committing a crime.

The common criminal knocking off the local convenience store is not going to do so in the presence of an armed individual. They are either going to wait two minutes for the armed person to leave, or walk down the street one block to the next store where the armed person is not present.

In the case of something like a bank robbery, where the criminals charge in, guns drawn - they are not going to stop and check out exactly which customers have guns or not. That's just foolish to think they are going to do that. They are going to take out those in uniform, order everyone else either to the ground or to a central location, and concentrate on getting as much money as possible in a few seconds and then haul a$$ out of there.

Do you REALLY think they are going to take the time to notice my gun so prominently displayed in my photo in post #82?

More than likely, what is going to happen, in most situations, is something like this:
http://www.examiner.com/x-5619-Atla...8-Open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-in-Kennesaw

 

[TOM RENZO]

LT if memory serves me. A guy shot the guard in the white house a fiew years ago. If memory serves me he was the first one shot. He had a gun on his side. Anyway i am not going to convince you so case closed . Thanks for the debate it was interisting. Remember never show your cards in a poker game!!!! In closing i have to take your words as written. You boasted that you can hit a paper target accurrately!!!! So it shows me you dont get this discussion. Any one that trains knows that accuracy is important but hits are what counts. Bullseye shooters normally dont do well in combat training. This has been proven time after time. So with that said Thanks. It was interesting at best. When training always go for hits and do not shoot lie a bulls eye shooter. If you do you will get shot!! Several times. Peace Tom


Remember
Shoot Safe Shoot Often And Share The Sport.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Well a guy shot the guard in the white house a fiew years ago

The guard wasn't going anywhere. If the guy wanted to attack the white house he HAD TO attack the armed guard. I am not standing guard somewhere. If I am in the way any criminal will wait for me to pay for my can of espresso coffee AND leave the store BEFORE they pull their gun. Do you know how terrifying a man with a GP100 and a cold 24 oz can of premium coffee is?

NavyLT, thanks for that story. One of the Waffle house Franchises in Ohio just posted their stores and I am just now trying to talk to them about it.

 

[TOM RENZO]

This is really getting to be a sereyously heated debate !!!!!

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 41% of Adults are at least somewhat concerned about their safety in the presence of those who have “concealed carry” gun permits. Fifty-eight percent (58%) don’t share that concern.

But 47% oppose so-called “open carry” laws that would allow citizens to openly wear their guns in public. Forty-one percent (41%) favor laws. Several states are currently wrestling with this issue.

 

[gearchecker]

Tom Renzo, you posted

Any one that trains knows that accuracy is important but hits are what counts. Bullseye shooters normally dont do well in combat training. This has been proven time after time.

Please read the sub-chapter "Practice" in chapter 15 in Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme". He dubunks that myth with his professional experience. Also, because of the forward thinking of the NRA, Shilouette targets are not allowed in any of their ranges. So the only thing most of us ever get to shoot at are Bullseye circles.

I know an aweful lot of hunters that never shot at anything in practice other than round bullseye targets. And somehow every year they get their Deer, Elk, or Moose.
Imagine that, even with the excitement of getting a shot at their buck or bull they manage to hit them, without that silly circle taped onto their sides.
Hunting is a huge adrenalin charge, ask any hunter how they felt when they pulled that animal into their sights. They weren't thinking about a bullseye, they were thinking solely about killing a living animal. And they succeed time & time again.

Of course they went after the guard, he's the closest and greatest threat. your answer still doesn't address NAVYLT's question. Can you find proof that an citizen open carrying a ahndgun was intentionally targeted as a first threat? and, if you can find it, please post a link, or cite the case.

Regards, Gearchecker

 

[MTS840]

You are both forgetting that police have the right to legally detain someone if they reasonably believe they are in danger. This is different from an arrest.

While each case is different depending on circumstances, physically handcuffing an armed subject while police sort out the facts at the scene is hardly unreasonable or grounds for a lawsuit!

However, I see the same kind of "in your face" attitude I mentioned a few posts back. This is the sad part and this is what damages gun owner's public perception, in my opinion.

I mentioned that the apparent attitude of some in the Open Carry crowd is to provoke a confrontation.

The posts of some in this thread tend to support this opinion.

You really "DARE" to be detained by police when they have a call about you? Really? Is that what this is about?

So police now have to worry about being drawn into a confrontation and potential lawsuit from those who claim to be on the side of law and order?! Great. That's all we need. Yeah buddy. You guys are great for changing public perception!

People have every right to call police if they see suspicious activity. These people have just as many rights as you do. They have just as much right to feel safe in public as you do. They can, and should call police whenever they feel threatened. I'm not going to call these people names because they should somehow know that you're a good guy.

This is the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread. The blatant indiscretion of some in the OC crowd puts them at odds with the general public, some in the Concealed Carry crowd, the police and it goes against the advice of any credible firearms trainer, instructor and most gunwriters.

Many have little, if any training and believe they are accountable to no one. No wonder the media and many in the general public paints your group as a bunch of reckless, untrained yahoos!

You've done nothing but reinforce that perception, and this gives us ALL a bad name!

Seriously, you guys should print out this thread and post it where everybody can read it, not just forum members and see which side seems to be the most rational in the minds of the public.

What the hell ever happened to the central issue of just carrying a gun for self defense and being at peace with everybody else?

 

[gearchecker]

So what makes me the bad guy?

For the record, I carry openly, and I’ve never been to an Open Carry Rally.
When I do carry, I'm not confronting or threatening anybody, ever.
Nobody seems to notice, even the children are unaware. I don’t understand what makes you feel that I’m doing anything wrong or against society.
It’s difficult hearing the statements that anybody that open carry's is either confronting somebody, or they’re pushing a personal agenda, especially coming from a group of gun owners.
The law in the state of Idaho allows me to openly carry, except where limited by federal law. I carry openly along with thousands of Idaho citizens, and I’ve NEVER BEEN STOPPED or confronted by anybody, in any store, or out in the open public spaces by anybody concerning the fact that I'm carrying my pistol.

IMHO, No law abiding gun owner has the right to confront me, or accuse me of getting in their face, confronting them, pushing my agenda or anything in that context. I’m simply choosing to do what the law allows me to do. If you don’t openly carry and it’s legal for you to do so, that’s your choice. Don’t confront me because I do.

The OP 6 pages back on post #1 felt his rights were attacked, he confronted the store and their national offices, and got an answer to his concerns.
I'm not going to cite 2A rights or anything in that context.
This is about somebody feeling threatened over another carrying a gun.

I’m in complete agreement with NAVYLT and the OP.
Seattle is much safer because of Open Carry there. I feel much safer walking the streets of Seattle than I do in my home town of Battle Creek, MI, because the citizens of Seattle have chosen to be allowed to openly carry their guns. It’s obvious that the citizens there are taking back the streets from the criminals there. It's not done by shooting up the streets in a rage, or shoving their guns in others faces.
It's being prevented just by having their gun with them. Like LT keeps trying to point out if it's in the open, it deters crime. It would help if you would listen and learn peacefully.
You can go to Seattle on any given day and be a tourist, watch and count how many people you see with guns in the open. It far exceeds the number of Police there (I saw 6 in the entire day).
I was downtown and over in the market area on April 1st. It was moderately windy so hiding a holster under a light jacket was impossible that day. On that day I saw way more than 50 people carrying (I quit counting). There were mom's pushing 3 wheeled strollers while jogging, guys on bikes, and businessmen walking down the street talking. They were all carrying and I felt safe. They were in the stores and the Aquarium, I was carrying too. I hope my choice made somebody else feel safe that day too.
If you are carrying and handle yourself like you should in public, nobody's even going to notice. Unless you're carrying something like a 44 Magnum with a 6" barrel, or another large frame handgun.
Consider this side of the issue for a while. It really makes sense.
Regards, Gearchecker

 

[johnwilliamson062]

I mentioned that the apparent attitude of some in the Open Carry crowd is to provoke a confrontation.

I have never had a confrontation. I don't ever expect to. No one notices. If they do they either don't care or assume I am a LEO. IDK which, but no one ever asks me about it or calls the police. If they do and some LEO tackles me from behind when I am walking down the street legally carrying, then yes there will be an issue. LEO can't just go around tackling people whenever someone cries wolf. That would be the same as someone calling the police b/c "what looks like a 12 year old" is driving down the highway and the police PIT the car. If they calmly approach me, even with their hand on their gun, then there won't be any issue at all.

I have never been to an open carry event either. There has never been one close to me that I know of. I would probably go if there was though.

 

[jhco50]

But 47% oppose so-called “open carry” laws that would allow citizens to openly wear their guns in public. Forty-one percent (41%) favor laws. Several states are currently wrestling with this issue.

That is still 53% that favor open carry.

 

[jhco50]

Where were you when this was happening? We lost almost all of these freedoms before i could read or write and we started getting them back about the same time I got my drivers license. Shame on you who stood by as these freedoms were given away. The "Greatest Generation" and the "Boomers" handed me a bankrupt country with a heavily eroded constitution, both of which happened on their watch.

Let's see....writing letters, fighting with the schools on the mis-information in their history books, writing articles in the local newspaper (we still had real ones then), and voting.

I actually got back replies on some of my letters. For instance, I raked Shumer over the coals for an anti-gun vote he made. He sent me a nice letter back explaining his boot camp legislation.

I wrote the governor of Texas ( a woman motorcycle rider and I can't remember her name) telling her to do her job and quit wasting taxpayer money traveling to Washington DC to get her picture taken with Clinton. She wrote me back and I responded if she kept up with her agenda, she would lose her job. She did lose to George Bush at the next election. I wonder if she thought of my letter when she handed over the governorship.

Yes, I was there fighting the good fight.

 

[Nnobby45]

How do you propose we expose non-shooters to firearms in a safe and responsible fashion?

Why do you need to "expose" anyone to firearms?

Last time I checked, there were approx. 42 States with shall issue concealed carry, and the number is growing. In no state that I'm aware of, has the general public mounted serious opposition. Anti-gun groups being the exception.

Seems like the "non-shooters" are exposed to the extent they need to be, since many have remained neutral, while knowing that many citizens are legally armed without them being startled at the sight of a gun being carried in public. They already know they have a a right to be armed if they so choose.

Interesting that making a point is more important to some than having the tactical advantage of being ccw.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[TOM RENZO]

Please read the sub-chapter "Practice" in chapter 15 in Massad Ayoob's book

Bullseye shooters dont do well in combat training in my experiance. I train with police officers all the time. When i offer coarses the bullseye guys think they will be the best. WRONG they are the worst. Any instructor will tell you that placed shots are what you are looking for not GROUPES. So when LT boasted his skills at group firing clearly he never took a course in defensive shooting. Because no instructor will instruct you on consentrating on Groupes. Now just me if you want to carry open God Bless its your right. But i will tell you now LT never took a combat training course. This is evident by his statement. And once again we are all shooters and i mean no disrespect. I have no proof that by open carry you will be first picked out. But if it was me at the other end this would be my first placed shot. Peace Tom

Remember

Shoot Safe Shoot Often And Share The Sport

 

[NavyLT]

TOM RENZO,

You are so full of you-know-what I can smell it over the internet. I have been through combat training in the US Army, I qualify expert Pistol and Rifle in the US Navy, I've been through ground combat school again with the Army prior to being deployed with ground troops in Iraq.

The first firearm I ever trained on was an M-16A1 rifle with an M203 grenade launcher. I've been through the M-16A2 and the M-4 rifle. I also started with the good old M1911 .45 and now I am stuck carrying the M-9. I was the unit armorer in the Army and cared for more than 200 M-16's, 25 M203s, 4-5 M60 .30 Cals and 4-5 M2 .50 Cals.

I never talked about shooting for close groups when I practice for self defense, did I? I am trained to draw and place two shots center mass within 4 seconds. What I said that I did when practicing was to put 30-50 rounds into a 1/4 size silhouette at 7 yards. I do that running through a magazine of 10 rounds in 5 to 10 seconds. Sometimes I reload from slidelock, and sometimes I practice counting rounds and tactical reload when round #10 is in the chamber.

So far, you have done nothing but give us your personal opinions on things, but have failed to provide us with any real world fact or examples to back up what you say. When you choose to join the world of reality, vice conjecture, come see us and we'll introduce you to the real world. You need to get out of your training facility and see what is really out here.

 

[MTS840]

As a former Marine and Desert Storm veteran, I say "Thank you for your service, LT."

We can disagree all day long about OC, but we are still brothers-in-arms.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

But when they're off duty, I've never heard of ONE who carries a handgun openly.

I know a bunch of cops from different departments. A lot don't carry off duty, but a lot do. Depending on local events and crime, I would say it ranges from 40/60 to 60/40 of officers who do or do not carry off duty.

Back in the old days, my pop was required to carry when off duty, but "carry" was generally accepted to be "accessible." The old days ended in the 1970s.

 

[NavyLT]

As a former Marine and Desert Storm veteran, I say "Thank you for your service, LT."

We can disagree all day long about OC, but we are still brothers-in-arms.

Yes, and thank you too for serving our country! Let's hope that we can continue, in the future, "to obey the orders of the President of the United States" and that we are not called upon to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States" against domestic enemies!

 

[oneounceload]

So we tie the bearing of arms to mandatory training?
Is that in the fine print of the Second Amendment?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

Some might think that well-regulated means EXACTLY that - trained

NO where does the 2A having any intent or meaning for you to carry, openly or concealed, for your self-protection from criminals. It does have everything to do with having citizens armed against a central totalitarian government that has gotten out of control.

 

[TOM RENZO]

Ok LT words that you speak can sometimes hurt. As a vietnam VET i respect you. And i respect your service but dont ever tell someone they are full of anything!!! Here is my HONOR and i earned it many years ago. Vietnam 1967-1969 In country spent many months in rehab . It hurts to stop bullits have you had the PLEASURE or the HONOR. Dont throw your bull around if you never walked the walk. So when do you want to expose me to the real world. I have been their. And believe me you cant introduce me to anything that i have never been through before. Sometimes it better to listen than to spout off about the GUNS OR equiptment you trained on. Ever had a weapon JAM on you in a FIRE FIGHT. Or for that matter ever been in a fire fight. I pray to the lord every day that i survived the TET offensive. Have you had the honor of combat. Its a whole different story when guys are shooting at you. BEEN THER DONE THAT. With that said i do respect your service as a BROTHER. And as an officer.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt88/tomrenzo/Kitties160.jpg

I wear this patch for the rest of my life. With pride and valor. Swift Silent Deadly. With that said i will bow out of this discussion. You really need some manners dont they teach that in the NAVY??? Semper FI

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Tom Renzo,
I find it incredible you would get so offended after Navy LT redirected almost the same assumptions to yourself that you sent to him. Maybe you should re-read your posts and see if you may have forgotten your manners at some point.
I, for one, am still waiting for your citation of a SINGLE event where an openly armed civilian was targeted first, as you claim to have provided.