Restraints (A FUDlike Question)

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At LFI-2 we did about 1 hour training in how to handcuff someone. It was only 1 hour because they only taught us how to handcuff someone who was not resisting. I think the main value of the exercise was to convince us that there's no way in heck I would try to handcuff someone. It would take a whole lot more training to handcuff someone who is resisting, and that's best done with more than one person.

If I have a handgun, a nice distance weapon, and some distance, there's absolutely no way I'm going to give up that distance, approach a bad guy, and possibly give him a weapon (one handcuff on his wrist is a pretty good weapon). No way.

I'm 40 years old and 160 lbs. Now way I want to get in a wrestling match with someone.

If I'm holding some badguy at gunpoint and he runs away, so be it. But I'm not going to risk my life trying to handcuff him. YMMV.

And yes, in some jurisdictions if you are carrying a set of handcuffs and aren't a LEO, they will believe that you were planning to kidnap someone. It may not be illegal to carry handcuffs in your jurisdiction, but the police may well take a dim view of it.

Jared
 
Gunslinger,
I was put in restraints once. I believe she was an Army Nurse and it wasn't quite duty-related! ;)

ON the job, I once was required to carry two pair of S&W handcuffs. I also carried a dog leash (braided, round, light and strong). I used ALL of them once, but I had some help from a real LEO (off-duty). As a Security Officer, I was NOT going to "play cop" and get hurt. I agree with the folks who've posted here....
 
As I stated in a previous post above I failed to take into consideration the fact that most people are not trained in the proper technique to place someone in cuffs. In retrospect I can see where many (most) would be unable to do so and/or unwilling to. However the topic has created some questions in mind about those that naively believe that they can either:
1) display a gun and the problem will some how immediately resolve.
2) there are no situations in which the threat will remain and a gun cannot be used.
3) if the BG continues to fight after a gun is displayed they are allowed to shoot them.
4) if the scenario does not go as they would like they will always have the option of simply fleeing.

In an ideal world once we (the good guy) draws his/her weapon the bad guy either surrenders, flees or the situation allows us to shoot. We, unfortunately, do not live in an ideal world. We all know how long it takes the police to arrive. Personally I feel better having cuffs on my person. I can understand that there are those that would be uncomfortable having them. I can just hope they do not find themselves in a situtaiton where their gun cannot be used but the problem doesn't just run away, allow them the option of running away or falls over in a dead faint.
In the real world things seldom, if ever, go as planned. Cuffs, for someone trained in their use, is just another tool to have at their disposal for those unexpected situations.

Dennis, now 'about that nurse......... :D
 
Wallet chain? Also, pretty much any article of clothing can be turned into a restraint device i.e. shirt tied around badguys hands or legs, and if he is bugging you, and yelling, sock gags, sure to be nice and moist from the struggle with the bad guy.
 
I am not a cop and HAVE been cuffe'd once by one- it was mistaken identity that was sorted out after I spent the night in the New Orleans pokey- big fun-
:thankfulforthememorybutneveragainsmileyface:
I yielded to the cop's authority as soon as I saw the blue. If it had been a smokey in disguise, I would have struggled.

Every cop show has one cop tenderising the bad guy with a knee in the back and forceful cuffing (when the BG is being naughty and trying to get away) the other bears are around with their 45's and 9's all pointing at the Hamburgler's head from three feet away. The guy is usually struggling and swearing and fighting. I do not think that Joe Citizen (me) is going to be able to put someone under restraint arrest and live.

<<Question>>
Aren't we legally obliged to retreat. If the BG has stopped his threat of you, someone else, property, don't us civilians have to go away unless there is some need (dead BG) that needs explaining?
 
Since road rage seems to currently be a favorite American pass time we will use this.

You're motoring along in your car with only 23 payments left before the bank gives you sole possession of the title when BANG! you're in an accident. Out jumps the bad guy from the other vehicle. But wait....he isn't your typical, planned for BG. He is a little feller weighing in at 145 lbs. soaking wet. (Don't ask how he got soaking wet.) You extit your vehicle (wondering what the insurance adjuster is going to say) and attempt to reason with the other driver. He, instead of being reasonable, is acting like a Capuchon monkey on a bad acid trip and far from resonable. You see immediately that reasoning with the induvidual is out of the question but there is a phone on the corner only a few feet away. You're going to have to call the police to report the accident any way and get a wrecker. But as you start to the phone monkey boy jumps on your back and begins striking you with his little monkey fist all the while shouting explantives about your mothers bedroom habits. You desperately look around for some assistance but no one else is about. You have your new plastic-wonder-pistol in your new state-of-the-art-holster concealed under your jacket along with your state approved CCW permit in your pocket. But, much as you would like to and with full knowledge you would be doing a service to society you can not shoot monkey boy because he is not armed. No problem you will retreat! That's it I will run away. But low and behold you discover that you can not get back in your vehicle and all attempts to escape monkey boy just follows. All the while still striking you about the head and shoulders with his little monkey fist (thank God, he stopped talking about your mother.....but why is he yelling "who's your daddy" now?) You know you can whip monkey boy like a little school girl. But much like Paul Newmans character in Cool Hand Luke he keeps getting back up even after you have whipped him like the character played by George Kennedy in the same movie. (Side note: Don't buy Paul Newman salad dressing because he does commercials for Cease Fire.) What are you going to do with monkey boy? Even if you drag him with you to the phone like an unsightly growth it would take a team of surgeons to remove you will still have to do something with him until the police arrive. If you try to hold him down you will tire much sooner than he will. He is driven by a force known only to people of his ilk inhabiting the world whom oft times believe themselves to be monkeys on acid, although most would be hard pressed to identify with a specific species of primate whom they relate to.
Not the scenario we have rehersed for? They seldom are.



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Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Inspired by a true story, 'slinger? :D

One minor quibble: monkey boy IS armed, if we agree that armed == posessing weapons. He's hitting you, right? Granted, he's probably not doing a whole helluva lot of damage, other than annoying you and raising your blood pressure, but hands *are* weapons. Does that mean I'll fling him off my back and commence the high-speed lead poisoning? No, as he's not a *deadly* threat, AFAIK. Spaz-kids like him are right in line with that Shakespearean thing about sound and fury.

I'd be more likely to plant a hand in his face and give him a push. No restraints necessary in this case.
 
Slinger,

When the retired state trooper and I used to teach CHL classes, we’d ask the class
who would they rather attack - him or me. They always laughed and picked me.

Then the trooper would laugh and say, “You’re wrong! Probably DEAD wrong!”

He’d explain that with his training and experience, he could handle most frays
hand-to-hand. Without such training, I’d have to resort rather quickly to deadly
force. Therefore, attacking a weak person may get you killed quicker than
attacking a strong person.

Additionally, I have a bad back. Further injury could put me in a wheelchair.
Therefore, I quickly fear the imminent danger of "serious bodily injury or death".
Monkey boy can get away from me or get shot and, in Texas, the law is on my side.

After all, I'm just a weak, gray-haired, decrepit ole EMT! I can’t play fisticuffs
anymore.
- If I can avoid the problem, I won’t be there.
- If I can escape, I’ll be gone quicker than a Clinton promise (well, amost!).
- Trap or attack me at your risk.

The nurse was a blond, as I recall. But not a real blond.... ;)
 
But once you have given him the push and he still comes back what are you going to do with him after the one hundreth time you have pushed him off and still have a twenty minute wait for the police?
And let's be fair here Coinneach. We really can't use you or I either one very well as the "victim" of the monkey boy in this case. :D

(Back to edit since Dennis answered as I was typing)
Dennis, I think you have identified the problem with my original thought in posting the topic. I was, erroneously thinking from the perspective of someone who is trained in the proper way to place a person in cuffs. I also understand others perspectives after havings seen police officers in real life situations on television attempting to cuff someone. Perhaps I had a better instructor. I have never not been able to cuff anyone by myslef if need be. Including those bigger and stronger than myself. As stated above in retrospect I can see where many would not want to carry cuffs.
Not a real blond? Why....how could you tell? :D

[This message has been edited by Gunslinger (edited August 29, 2000).]
 
what are you going to do with him after the one hundreth time you have pushed him off and still have a twenty minute wait for the police?

Sit on him, or maybe give him a dutch rub or Indian burn?

Yeah, I'd probably have a problem explaining how shrimp is the perp and I'm the victim. :D
 
"What do you do after you have pushed him off of you for the 100th time..."

Oh come now...

I, too, can make just about ANY scenario I want to support a point of view, such as...

What if he comes at you walking on his HANDS, and flailing at you with his feet? Are you entitled to shoot him, pull out ankle cuffs and restrain him, or can you only give him a pair of odor eaters.

In the hypothetical situation you've crafted, you may or may not be entitled to shoot the person, as you are undergoing a close-contact physical assault.

If you do not fear for your life, and it doesn't look like he's going to whip out a knife, you pull him off your back and you pepper spray him (I ALWAYS advocate carrying three things: 1. Gun, 2. Pepper Spray, 3. Cell Phone).

If you get him off, and he continues his assault, that's even greater justification for drawing your gun. In most states, all you have to show as justification for drawing a weapon or firing it is that you're in fear of your life.

You have NO idea whether this person does have a weapon, whether he has specialized skills, etc. My best friend Chuck is the person you've described, only about 20 pounds lighter. Yet Chuck wouldn't jump on your back -- he'd break your back in a heartbeat, probably before you even saw him move. His warm-up exercises generally include breaking 4x4s and double jump kicks to a target higher off the ground than he is tall, and a bunch of other stuff that makes my body ache every time he uses me as a sparring dummy. Yep, he's a 4th degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Me, I just carry a Smith & Wesson.

In your situation, though, since you apparently don't feel physically threatened by the person, you toss him off, get back in your car, lock the doors, and wait for police.

By doing that, you've just DEescalated the situation, which looks really good if you do later have to fire a shot. "I tried to get away from him, your honor. I got in the car and locked the doors...."

Finally, I think the only person here who is inferring that a gun will magically solve all encounters is you. I know I'm certainly not, just as I know you're not advocating cuffing every Tom, Dick & Harriet who spits on the sidewalk or kicks a cat.

If I'm not mistaken, cuffing someone is generally considered to be the most dangerous moment in an apprehension. That's why there is such specialized training and techniques used for this act.

I feel the same way about try to cuff someone
as I do about sweeping my own home for an intruder.

It's STUPID, and can make you DEAD.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.

[This message has been edited by Mike Irwin (edited August 29, 2000).]
 
What ever you say Mike. I'm sure you're right. :rolleyes:

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
Gunslinger, if cuffing the BG isn't a viable option for civilians, then what are we to do if we are faced with an unarmed but physically superior attacker and cannot run or get away? I suppose this boils down to the legal issue. No doubt you are correct that the presence of a gun will not stop every bad guy, so what are the options for the civilian?

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.
 
Gunslinger,
I just had to take a POST (police course ) to become recertified, more like recertifiable...weird, I am not an LEO, but my job says that I had powers of arrest so...the last time I took this course it was 23 years ago and I didn't have to learn to handcuff anyone. Now it is a one week course with one of the days dedicated to pat downs,takedowns, and putting restraints on a suspect.
I know one day is not enough, but let me tell you, if the other guy wasn't cooperating I wouldn't want to get that close to the BG, not without another person covering me. Trying to 'cuff someone brings you too close to being grabbed and going into a wrestling match where the BG might be able to get your gun. One of my worst nightmares is having your weapon taken away from you and then being executed with it.

When I just got to sunny California, I went to a local taco stand...didn't have any in Hawaii.
Bottom line, one man was bumped(#1) while he was standing in line. The one who bumped into him apologized but the bumpee decided that he'd pull a knife and get some of the bumper. The bumper pulled a gun. Bumpee #1 drops the shiv and puts his hands up. Bumper(#2) then puts gun away to make it a fair fight. Bumpee(#1) then beats the cr**p out of Bumper #2, takes no.#2's gun away, picks up his own knife, then stabs #1 anyway.
'Tis a mystery to me.
 
if you have the pepper spray you'll get asked why you shot him.. SINCE you had "another option" again leave that stuff for the cops, along with the cuffs. (told to me by CCW instructor)

And lets face it, road rage is a BAD example of a SD scenario. Everyone goes to jail in that scenario. Some 125 pound soaking wet irrational car crash victim might test your patience AND your skills. Maybe he's injured. You have no idea. Get back in your car and call the cops. If he starts bashing in your window with a tire iron you have recourse, like driving away OR if your car is undrivable, well it would probably be wise to shoot.
 
Monkeyleg, at some point it does become a legal issue. I think most schools of thought on this dictate that if you can say you were reasonalby in fear of your life or great bodily harm then you may use lethal force if escape is not an option. However, we all know that in practice this varies tremendously from one state or area to another. For example a person would have an easier time in say Texas than in California if lethal force were used.
I'm not saying that we should not or never have the right to use lethal force when necessary. I'm a simply saying that there are times when flight is not an option when we can not use lethal force without serious legal repercussions. In those instances where that is the case and the bad guy refuses to submit I like having the option/tools to affectively restrain the person. I am fully aware of the difficulty and dangers involved in cuffing a person. I had cuffed numeruos people without the benefit of back up. If someone else does not feel they are capable or would not like to employee that option that is their prerogative.
 
With my Jiu Jitsu knowledge, an unarmed attacked not at least three
times my weight will have a hard time. My brother is my sparring
partner, and he doesn't exactly look like some lean killer. However,
like me, he has several years of Jiu Jitsu under the belt and will not
hesitate to use it, as two would-be robbers found out to their outmost
dismay. And, oh, dogs are great replacements for cuffs. Have you ever
been pinned to the ground by a hungry and really, really angry Great
Dane?
 
Gunslinger-
Stop calling me monkey boy! :D

Anyway, regardless of my...um...vertically challenged state, I have trained for years, and am fairly fit. I move fast, and hit hard. I train in styles that utilize lots of grappling. I would be extremely reluctant to attempt to restrain anyone not unconscious, by myself. I would be reluctant to restrain anyone with less than two other, well-trained individuals.

I do understand what you are saying, Gunslinger. I happen to have a real-life case that seems applicable, though, regardless of whether I agree or not with your intent.

(Incidentally, Spartacus can give further details of this incident, as it happened to a friend.)

Citizen friendly is on his land, and confronts two late-teenage thugs who have driven onto his land. He sees the handgun the driver is holding, and as the driver attempts to exit the truck, Citizen Friendly slams the door on him. Mr. Friendly then vaults over the truck hood, in time to catch the armed passenger disembarking. A boot catches his door. To summarize, Citizen Friendly picked up and slammed thugs 1 and 2 on the ground, every time they tried to crawl away, while the cops were en route. The good citizen was convicted for not allowing the thugs to leave. (Incidentally, folk like Citizen Friendly are why I think God invented guns, and may I never cross his ilk. :-))
 
When I wrote the scenario I was attempting to interject some humor into what was inexplicably becoming a very heated topic. I was really not thinking of you at all when I used the moneky boy analogy Spectre.....but now that you mention it......... :D :D :D

------------------
Gunslinger

I was promised a Shortycicle and I want a Shortycicle!
 
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