Resizing a complete cartridge

One good video, there are others, showing how the Hornady Headspace Gauge set works with your calipers. Very good tool and works with most all rifle calibers. Measure the shoulders on factory rounds, measure a case fired in your rifle, and adjust your sizing die to push shoulders back for a semi-auto at 3-4 thousandths and a bolt rifle up to 2 thousandths.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-UrMTyJ1_E
 
When I first started loading for my AR, I loaded up a thousand rounds using CCI small rifle primers. Being new to AR's I had never heard of a slam fire, and got worried that I had used the wrong primers. So I got a Hornady collet bullet puller and went to town. Didn't take very long at all and had them all pulled down. Then I picked up some Tula primers for AR's and after depriming all the brass I reloaded them no problem. I wound up reusing the CCI small rifle primers in my .357 mag and not a single misfire. Of course since then have talked to several people who have used the CCI small rifle primers in thousands of rounds without a single slam fire. Oh well, I got 12000 of the Tula's from a friend for $150.00 so not too bad after all.
 
I personally would not resize a loaded round. Not even in a body die.

Just shoot 'em up in the rifle they fit and get a small base die for next time around.
 
I have resized loaded ammo in a couple of different cartridges by using a Redding Body die. It’s the only die I use for all my cartridges, besides a Lee Collet neck die.

Here’s the thing. It *should* be perfectly safe. The only reason that round should go off is if something hits the primer, and pretty damn hard. Squishing the case in a die will have no effect on the primer whatsoever.

However, and it’s a big however, you have to realize that if that round DOES go BOOM! while it’s up in that die, what you essentially have is a very short barreled rifle that’s going to fire that bullet into whatever is above your press and likely blow that die into pieces of shrapnel. I could be wrong about blowing up the die. Pressure will be (relatively) limited and the press is also there to help hold it together, but... still...

Is there any reason that should happen? No.
Have I ever heard of it happening? No.
Does it stop me from resizing ammo? No.
But damn, that would suck.

Your choice.
 
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Brian- My thoughts exactly. If your press is in the basement, make sure there are no people, animals or gas lines upwards in the line of fire.

No manufacturer of anything is going to say it is ok. OP, so forget that route. Should something happen? no. Could it happen? Possibly. I understand the reluctance in tossing the whole batch, but safety first.
 
Here’s the thing. It *should* be perfectly safe. The only reason that round should go off is if something hits the primer, and pretty damn hard. Squishing the case in a die will have no effect on the primer whatsoever.
Click to expand...

One more time, we are not talking about a RCBS 30/06 die sizing a loaded 30/06 round, as T. O'Heir said there is no room for the bullet, there is no room for the neck after a bullet has been seated. There are other dies with larger openings in the top of the die like Herter dies, It is possible to use 338/06 die, with the big opening and no forcing cone factors that aid in building pressire will not exist.

One more time, I have a custom 1911 build that likes new, over the counter factory ammo, it doe not like my reloads. So (there is always a so moment), after that comes; and then. I compared new factory over the counter with my reloads and found a difference, the difference was the bullet line, new factory over the counter ammo did not have bullets lins so I sized my 45 ACP ammo with a RCBS carbide die down to the bullet line. After removing the bullet line my pistol never hesitated with my reloads.

A very disciplined reloaders suggested I did not know how to load for the 45 ACP (SO?) I made arrangements to shoot his 45 ACP reloaded ammo, his ammo worked like my ammo with bullet lines, he offered ammo to every shooter at the range, good stuff, his ammo flew through there pistols like new ammo. I do not live that far from the range so I left, sized his ammo and then return. I fired his sized ammo in my pistol as though it was factory ammo.

I know, there is a fix but I like the accuracy of the pistol with ammo that fits, so I have applied the leaver policy, meaning I am going to leaver the way I it is.

Anyhow my reloades looked like a snake that had swallowed something.

F. Guffey
 
Just to say it, for those of you that don't have or have not seen a Redding Body Die or a Redding Type S FL sizing Die (with the guts removed), there's nothing to touch the bullet or neck of a loaded round. And there's nothing to touch the primer. Either die will size the body of the case and bump the shoulder back if set up to do so. What you can't do is take the guts out of a standard FL sizing Die and size a loaded round. That won't work,

The first round I resized did make me a touch nervous, so I went real slow and examined the process and what what was touching what. Once I confirmed that nothing was going to press on the primer, I went ahead and sized it (with lube...don't forget the lube).

So, if you have 10 loaded rounds, you can pull the bullets or use the Body Die. But if you have 300 rounds, you might consider the Body Die.
 
OK, one more time...

When you reload for more than one rifle, you MUST return the case to as close to SAAMI specification as possible.

To do this, you MUST own a case gauge (about $20).
LE Wilson gauges are my favorite because they have 'Quick Reference's grooves cut into both ends.
These are 'Go/NoGo' tolerance limits, if your cases are between the high/low tolerance standards the rounds will run in common chambers.

You use the gauge to tell if you are beating the brass back within tolerance,
AND, You use the gauge to tell if loaded rounds are going to fit into the chamber.

Your case can come out of the resizing die just fine, but seating the bullet or crimping can bend the shoulder, roll the mouth lip, etc.
The case gauge will catch these issues (flared shoulders, folded or bent mouth lips) in a flash simply because it won't fit into the gauge properly.

In machinists terms, this is a 'Last Word' gauge, final quality control check.
 
Well, maybe I was answering a question that wasn't asked. My point was that you can resize the body of a loaded round. But, if the question is how to size for multiple rifles of the same caliber, I'd just resize them to factory spec. You may or may not need a small base die to do that.

As for a Wilson Case Gauge, I only have one 223 and I load to fit the chamber. I have a Wilson Case Gauge, but consider it of no use for my purposes. I think I mentioned recently, on this forum, that my 223 had a tight match chamber when I had it rebarreled. Reloaded ammo fit the Case Gauge fine, but would not chamber if I used Lapua brass. Drove me crazy for a while. Turned out that the Case neck walls were too thick (for my rifle chamber) and with a seated bullet, the rounds wouldn't fit. I lost all confidence that my Case Gauge would give me useful information.

Forget the Case Gauge and size with a standard Fl Die. If that doesn't work, get a small base Die.
 
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When you reload for more than one rifle, you MUST return the case to as close to SAAMI specification as possible.
Click to expand...

JH , I have to disagree and this in not to sound snarky . I load for multiple rifles of the same caliber in both 308 and 223/5.56 and I don't even consider loading to SAAMI specs . I use the Hornady headspace gauge/comparator and size my cases to bump the shoulder back .002 to .003 to fit the smallest chamber which results in the cartridges fitting in all the rifles .

SAAMI specs don't mean much to me in this regard . This is not to say my cases aren't at or close to SAAMI minimum . Heck in theory they could be smaller . I couldn't even tell you what SAAMI specs are for the 308 or 223 off the top of my head . I just know I size some cases to fit multiple rifles of the same caliber and any SAAMI measurements are not even considered , only what the actual chamber sizes are is what matters to me . I've not yet ran into a situation where there was a large enough difference in chamber sizes to where I thought one firearm would have to much head clearance . Although my new RPR is by far the tightest chamber I have to date and is right on the edge of being to small compared to my Ruger American rifle . I'm talking almost .004 difference when measuring there respective fire formed cases .

That said I do size my long term storage SHTF ammo to the length of a GO gauge . This is because I don't know what firearm I may have in the future and want any stored ammo to chamber in any firearm it needs to feed .
 
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You use the gauge to tell if you are beating the brass back within tolerance,
AND, You use the gauge to tell if loaded rounds are going to fit into the chamber.

Your case can come out of the resizing die just fine, but seating the bullet or crimping can bend the shoulder, roll the mouth lip, etc.
The case gauge will catch these issues (flared shoulders, folded or bent mouth lips) in a flash simply because it won't fit into the gauge properly.

In machinists terms, this is a 'Last Word' gauge, final quality control check.
Click to expand...
Wrong. Not so. The Wilson Bushing gauge IS NOT for checking loaded ammo as in a "plunk test" It does not represent a minimum SAAMI chamber..
(Fancy terms,a "plunk gauge " must insure a clearance fit representation of a chamber at "Maximum Material Condition" and of ammo at "Maximum Material Condition" The bushing gauge,used to measure shoulder setback,must first accept fired,unsized cases...the diameters of the gauge must be at least SAAMI Least Material Condition for a chamber.)

It is incredible to me how many folks completely do not understand the purpose of a bushing gauge.
Each and every one who believes a Wilson Bushing Case length gauge or similar bushing gauge can be used as a substitute chamber for "plunk" testing does not understand the gauge.
Its NOT for measuring diameters. Period. All of the diameters are oversize,for clearance,by design. The very largest SAAMI diameters MUST be a free,fall in clearance fit in a bushing die.
Any diametrical interference between the brass and the bushing die would make the bushing die useless for its intended purpose,measuring LENGTH.

What the bushing die is for: It provides a simulated datum circle representing the location on the shoulder that the SAAMI shoulder to case head measurement is taken from.
On the open end of the gauge is a step. Between the full length of the bushing and the step is theSAAMI tolerance for the cartridge case head to shoulder length.
Those two steps correspond to the cartridge case version of the "Go" and "No Go" headspace gauges for the chamber. They are all about measuring from the bolt face/cartridge head to the shoulder datum.

As a bonus,they throw in the function of a case overall length gauge to see if your brass needs trimming.

That's it. It does not have a darn thing to do with neck diameters or small base dies,or any other diameter measurement.It has nothing to do with testing ammo for "good to go"

It is for checking shoulder setback. You may use it for SAAMI high-low limit. You may also use it as a convenient simulated datum with measuring tools to come up with repeatable die settings.
You may use it with calipers to a similar purpose as the Hornady cartridge length gauge or RCBS Precision mic by measuring over the bushing to the case head of the brass.

End of that topic.New topic:
While it is not the ONLY reason .223-5.56 loaded ammo gets stuck in the chamber,the most common reason is related to the crimp function of the seater die putting too much end load on the cartridge. The shoulder collapses and bulges.
In the extreme,this comes from screwing the seater down on the shellholder.
It can be intermittent due to brass of varying lengths.
Overcrimp or try to crimp where there is no cannelure and shoulder collapse becomes a problem.
Measure for a bulge at the shoulder vs just behind the shoulder before you wonder about small base dies.
Measure your brass where you think you need a smallbase die,like,at the base...then compare it to a factory load.If you don't mic a problem...where is the problem? Only a little expansion and the primers get loose.
If you have very old dies or if you size gritty,abrasive brass,your dies may be worn out. Then you may need new standard dies .
They make small base dies for a reason...I think it is mostly Remington pump and semi-auto 740/760 series rifles.
 
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HiBC said:
While it is not the ONLY reason .223-5.56 loaded ammo gets stuck in the chamber,
the most common reason is related to the crimp function of the seater die putting
too much end load on the cartridge. The shoulder collapses and bulges.
Click to expand...
+1
See Post #9, the question which (IIRC) has never been answered
 
MG, this is a novice that wanted to stick LOADED ROUNDS into a die to reshape the case!
A reasonably tight tolerance case gauge IS going to be a simple, effective quality control check that will get his rounds running in 90% of same chambered rifles.

A case gauge used as a last word gauge finds flared shoulders by simply dropping them in, with flared shoulders being a large cause of beginners making rounds that don't fit.
It's usually because they don't understand how the roll/taper crimp works in the cheap seating/crimping dies.

It's a nearly screw up proof way for beginners to learn basics, diagnose problems with their setups, and QC loaded ammo...
Plus, when combined with a caliper or micrometer, it gives you a reading to ZERO from to produce repeatable results, saving time setting up dies, which all newbies do WAY too often, along with a zero point reading so you can gauge your changes.

Everyone pulls the 'Ultra Tight' or 'Match Chamber' (OFF SPECIFICATION!) out of their butts when the subject comes up, the simple fact is...
Tons of YouTube videos on simple, and complex use of a case gauge, so learning is easy, the gauge is cheap ($20), and helps produce SAFE rounds.

They ALWAYS leave out (or probably don't know) an off spec chamber SHOULD have a custom cut sizing die & case gauge made identical to the off spec chamber,
OR, they have ZERO idea what the baseline should be for that off spec chamber...
Which leads to the current crop of 'Small Base' dies, all kinds of silly comparators, tons of general purpose chamber tools, etc. Trying to beat case into some semblance of fitting that off spec chamber...

When I hear some armchair expert spout off about 'Match' chambers, and I'm in the mood to point out the obvious, I ask what specification they changed... They always say 'Its Tigter', tighter where? How much? What measurement reading?
That's where they get mad because they have NO IDEA!
Someone talked them into some magical barrel or rechamber, and they have ZERO idea if the work was even done, or what changes were made, don't have a die that exactly matches the chamber, ect...

I have drawers full of ogive adapters, Datum point adapters, case profile gauges, ways to check/measure every aspect of chamber & cartridge. The simple truth is none are as easy as the commercial case gauge, simple is good when starting out!
I have to find what someone else screwed up, or time & wear has done to chambers... That's the reason for all the equipment to find out exactly what I'm working with to diagnose any issues. Any other reason is just fluff & bragging rights!

I'll point someone towards safe & simple every time over complicated and questionable... No room for error means screw up proof, and that is a big step towards safe ammo...
Safe first, then CONSISTENT so you have a chance at better accuracy.

And no offense taken! I get your point, but we are talking skill level here... He's like 90% of 'Reloaders', he bought basic equipment, had minimal (if any) education, banged out a working round in ONE firearm...
Now he's overshot his skill level, ignored all safety procedures, and was looking for someone to validate his 'Short Cut'...
I won't do that...

"You'll shoot your eye out kid" comes to mind, only this isn't a spring powered BB gun...
 
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Jeephammer, as you said, the OP is a novice. He has 1000's of rounds of loaded 223 that need to be slightly resized. He doesn't need a Case Gauge, if only for the reason that you said few folks know how to use them. For the loaded rounds, he needs that Redding Body Die to touch up the loaded cases, or maybe a small base Body Die if they make one. It's fast, simple, and to my mind it isn't dangerous. For new loads, I think he got a small based Die and it works. All is good.

As for folks whining about their tight match chambers, some of us actually have/had those. The gunsmith I used for the 223 apologized for the tight chamber he put in mine - which I didn't ask for. He opened the neck up a bit and all is well. I won't use him again, since he paid little attention to what I needed him to do.
 
Jeephammer,You said a lot of correct things in your post,but...

I'm not talking about match chambers.I'm not talking about special tools .

I'm telling you a bushing gauge is not,never has been a tool to QC loaded ammo. Its the wrong dimensions. It will not assure that ammo is SAAMI spec and it will not assure the ammo will fit in a standard SAAMI chamber.

The fact that you can use it to sort out grossly out of spec ammo is irrelevant.

I understand the OP is learning new things and does not have a base of knowledge and experience to sort out wrong,misleading,and confusing information.
That is why I am calling you on it. You are wrong.


A bushing die MUST be oversize on all diameters except the simulated shoulder datum circle in order for a bushing case length gauge to function. It cannot measure the case length based on the shoulder datum if any diameter interferes.
Therefore,it is unsuitable to be the "Last word" gauge for checking ammo.It will pass diametrically oversize ammo.

I will agree any ammo that fails to enter a bushing gauge is reject.It is grossly wrong.

But you are absolutely wrong that entering the bushing gauge qualifies ammo as good. Bad ammo that is not SAAMI spec,bad ammo that will stick in the chamber may still enter a bushing gauge.
You might as well use your seater die body.Its a hole that really bad ammo won't fit in. But its not a "last word" gauge.

The worst part of misinformation like yours is that people who buy a bushing gauge come to believe its a worthless crap plunk gauge they cant trust. They throw it in a drawer and tell other people bushing gauges are a waste of time.

They never learn just how useful the bushing gauge is because some wrong person told them its a plunk gauge.

Then they leave the bushing in the drawer and go buy a Hornady clamp on attachment for their calipers to measure shoulder bump. Why? A calipers and bushing die does the same thing better.
You can tailor a specific head clearance of .002 or .004 with a bushing gauge and a caliper. You can set up SAAMI spec ammo by just using the hi-lo step.
If the neck sticks out the end,trim it.

But it not a chamber plunk gauge.

I won't argue with the Redfield bushing siizing die,if the OP is going to rework them.
I'm not saying anything good or bad about re-work sizing them. It has to do with risk assessment and personal choices.I cannot call it "recommended practice". A loaded round in a reloading die is no different than a loaded round in a firearm chamber. You might very well be able to cycle 1000 rounds through a rifle in your living room without incident.If something odd manages to go wrong somehow,someone may get killed. I'm not recommending anything.
A Redding bushing die is $
Once in a while I find a Gold Nugget in one of Mr Guffey's posts. He pointed out that a sizing die for a necked up .223 cartridge family would provide clearance around the neck. That's true.
I believe the TCU series cartridges are necked up.223,correct? So a 6mm or 7mm TCU should work? (verify no shoulder mods) How much is a Lee sizer die? only?
 
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From LE Wilson them selves

Hope this clears things up for anyone still not understanding what these gauges are for and how to use them to there fullest potential .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuJYpm-qplQ

FWIW I do have the Redding body dies as well as Redding type s Bushing dies and did test if you can bump a shoulder back a couple thou on a loaded cartridge . I was able to do it with both the body only die and the Bushing die with "ALL" internals removed . I did that test a few years ago when a similar thread was going .

Do I recommend it , no I felt a little uneasy when doing it but in theory with some caution it should be safe .
 
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if the base was too large in diameter, could you just take a Lee sizer die for cast in a 375HH and slide the ammo through? it would only touch/squeeze the base, and the tool ram is large enough that if the primers are properly seated, there is no risk. One could dremel out at hollow in the middle of it to protect the primer.

also, could someone post a link to the different dies folks are referring to?
I kinda get the feeling some are using two different terms to describe the same thing.
This would really help me understand some comments.
 
See the link in MG's post above. It clearly describes the bushing gauge used for measuring ,for lack of a better term,"case headspace" Good video!
Note it is called a "bushing GAUGE"

Redding,and perhaps others,makes a Bushing case resizing DIE (as opposed to GAUGE) that allows the handloader to change bushings that resize the neck portion of the case.This gives the handloader control of neck tension and sizing after neck turning for example,,relying less on the expander plug or eliminating it,etc.or minimizing the working of the brass.

Generally a die alters or forms the part in question,and a gauge measures it.

With no bushing in the die,it may be that the die could size the case body without touching the neck.

I'm guessing its hard to follow the difference between a bushing type resizing die and a bushing type measuring gauge. Completely different tool doing a completely different job.

And a "plunk gauge" is another tool in its own right.
The way a standard set of tolerances,like SAAMI works,the largest SAAMI ammo will fit the tightest SAAMI chamber. A handloader who is custom making ammo for one chamber does not care. The ammo is tailored to the gun.

But if the loads are for multiple guns,or commercial reloads,the biggest,longest,fattest cartridge you make has to fit the tightest in-spec SAAMI chamber stamped on the barrel.
The "plunk gauge" simulates that tight chamber.

As far as your suggested remedy to the problem....there is more than one way to skin a cat.
 
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The original post asked:
Before anyone throws rocks at me, let me explain. I reloaded a bunch (1000's) ..223 for a non-colt AR. Having acquired a couple new Colt AR's i am having a few issues with them getting stuck in the chamber. Did my research and discovered the need for a small base die. Works great and no more issues.
Click to expand...

If he has determined that a small base die will fix the issue, let us take him at his word. I'll probably catch flack for this suggestion, but why not try something like this:

Go to Ebay and pick up a small base die such as: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-RCBS-Sm...558168?hash=item284376e8d8:g:HN4AAOSw2tRZdBZO.

Screw the die into the press until contact with raised ram with shell holder and mark the top of the die where it is flush with the top of the press screw in hole plus 1/4 turn.

Remove die and cut off everything above the mark. Cutting the top of the die off may prove difficult -- I've never tried it but I do have the tools to do it. A diamond tile cut wheel or an angle grinder cut off wheel comes to mind.

Once the top of the small base die was cut off so the top of the die was flush with the top of the press should allow the base only to be resized. With lube of course.

In the very unlikely case that the loaded cartridge did go off, there would be no "barrel" above the bullet as most of the cartridge would be above the top of the cut off die where confined pressure (as in a die/barrel) could not develop. I'd still wear safety glasses while I did this!

Just an idea, but if the OP has several thousand cartridges that need the base reduced, it may be worth a try.
 
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