chadstrickland
New member
While I have never tried to simply remove one small patch of rust. At the gun shop we always sand blasted all the rust and paint and crap off a gun before we hot blued them 
Removing rust on blued surfaces--do NOT use oil!!!
- Thread starter JohnKSa
- Start date
Odds and ends:
The original Scotch-Brite was basically pads made of strands with sanding abrasive glued to them. You can buy it in all grades at industrial suppliers from coarse metal removal down to polishing grades, and in aluminum oxide, aluminum silicate (flint), and silicone carbide. More recently, though, the name brand has been applied to a wide range of products, including all natural fiber pads that aren't supposed to scratch at all.
The Lead Wipe cloths can remove rust, and they use roughly 400 grit aluminum oxide abrasive. It has a hard time damaging bluing, too. Rub it on aluminum, though, and you can see the scuff immediately. The aluminum oxide grains are less sharp than silicone carbide, which is why they don't scratch something hard so easily.
I'm not sure what to make of the dry steel wool idea. I thought the oil was mainly to help loosen the rust. Perhaps it causes larger pieces to get loose, increasing the size of scuffs. In that case, dry followed by wet might help get it all with less scuffing. The presence of oil will make the surface more transparent looking than a dry surface so you can see scuffs better, and that may be coming into play, too.
A good penetrating oil will let you wipe rust off with a rough brown paper towel. So will Gunzilla if you let it sit a little while.
The original Scotch-Brite was basically pads made of strands with sanding abrasive glued to them. You can buy it in all grades at industrial suppliers from coarse metal removal down to polishing grades, and in aluminum oxide, aluminum silicate (flint), and silicone carbide. More recently, though, the name brand has been applied to a wide range of products, including all natural fiber pads that aren't supposed to scratch at all.
The Lead Wipe cloths can remove rust, and they use roughly 400 grit aluminum oxide abrasive. It has a hard time damaging bluing, too. Rub it on aluminum, though, and you can see the scuff immediately. The aluminum oxide grains are less sharp than silicone carbide, which is why they don't scratch something hard so easily.
I'm not sure what to make of the dry steel wool idea. I thought the oil was mainly to help loosen the rust. Perhaps it causes larger pieces to get loose, increasing the size of scuffs. In that case, dry followed by wet might help get it all with less scuffing. The presence of oil will make the surface more transparent looking than a dry surface so you can see scuffs better, and that may be coming into play, too.
A good penetrating oil will let you wipe rust off with a rough brown paper towel. So will Gunzilla if you let it sit a little while.
It's kind of funny that this thread came back up. I was just reading an article yesterday on rust blueing techniques and the author (Reid Coffield) mentioned that he used a wire wheel (soft thin wire) to card the blueing between "coats".
If you can keep all the rust off the surface and out of the steel wool, and still use oil then you may be able to keep it from scratching.
The point is that while steel wool is, at best, a very mild abrasive, iron oxide is a fairly agressive abrasive.
Rubbing with dry steel wool is pretty benign. Rubbing with rust is not, and using some oil doesn't help much if there's a signficant amount of rust retained in the oil unless you're careful to keep the surface and the steel wool flushed out. I find it's MUCH easier to keep the rust out of the equation by using dry steel wool. Then the loosened rust comes off the surface and falls away and it's easy to dust out the steel wool frequently to keep any from building up.
I agree that 0000 steel wool and oil won't scratch blueing--in fact it takes some effort to scratch blueing even with unoiled 0000 steel wool. That's as expected given that carding/polishing with 0000 steel wool is part of some blueing processes.
On the other hand, I can demonstrate (and have seen many times) that 0000 steel wool and oil and rust will scratch blueing.
The bottom line is that I've done rust removal using 0000 steel wool with and without oil and find that it's much easier to keep the blue intact without oil--even when there's a significant amount of rust to be removed. I'm talking about light surface rust, not pitting.
I think that a lot of the disagreement comes from people who have tried it only one way and found ways to make it work. Sure, you can make it work with oil, but it's trickier to keep the finish intact if there's any significant amount of rust to remove as opposed to doing it without oil.
It's not like I have anything tied up in this. The only reason I pointed it out was because I have a good bit of experience trying both methods while it appeared to me that most people had always assumed that it should be done with oil and never tried it any other way.
I have no problem if people want to use oil, but I think if they try both ways they will almost certainly get the same results I did.
Oh, please. This is just playing with words. Seriously, do you really believe that the hundreds of guns I was referring to didn't have rust on them?
When you rub dry the rust doesn't magically disappear to rust heaven. It's on the gun, it's in the steel wool. If you want to delude yourself that dry rust is somehow less abrasive than rust suspended in oil, go ahead. But sorry, I'm not buying it.
I once tried to see if I could damage bluing on a scrap barrel by rubbing it with 0000 and oil. And, yes, it was rusty. I finally managed to get the bluing to fade slightly - after 10 minutes of white knuckle rubbing. If you can comprehend the phrase "gentle rubbing" you will not have a problem.
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To each his own !!
At the risk of turning this subject, into a spitting contest I will only state what I do and will continue to do. In that, there are no absolutes and would sound opinionated as oppose to having an opinion. .....
I use a variety of petrochemical products in combination with the 0000 wool, with no noticeable ill effects. Have always been taught that oil, primarily does two things; it cools by reducing friction and it cleans. I've noticed that application of these products alone and letting them sit, starts to desolve and float away some rust. Wipe away the oil and you will see rust on the rag, without the use of 0000. in short, the oil will desolve, clean and float the rust. It's even one of the most effective liquids that you can clean your hands with. .....
I've used petrochemical product for more years than I care to mention and will continue to do so. .....
Be Safe !!!
At the risk of turning this subject, into a spitting contest I will only state what I do and will continue to do. In that, there are no absolutes and would sound opinionated as oppose to having an opinion. .....
I use a variety of petrochemical products in combination with the 0000 wool, with no noticeable ill effects. Have always been taught that oil, primarily does two things; it cools by reducing friction and it cleans. I've noticed that application of these products alone and letting them sit, starts to desolve and float away some rust. Wipe away the oil and you will see rust on the rag, without the use of 0000. in short, the oil will desolve, clean and float the rust. It's even one of the most effective liquids that you can clean your hands with. .....
I've used petrochemical product for more years than I care to mention and will continue to do so. .....
Be Safe !!!
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The point is that they're both about the same in terms of abrasiveness. The difference is that the oil keeps the rust in place unless you make a concerted effort to flush the surface and the steel wool clean while if it's done without oil, the rust falls away and is easily dusted off rather than rubbed around on the surface.
That's pretty impressive and I can see how that would strengthen your opinion of the technique. I never had that much luck using oil. If I wasn't very careful it was pretty easy to get the finish to fade with even careful rubbing.
RaySendero
New member
Removing rust on blued surfaces
[Guys, I've had the best luck getting the rust off w/o scratching the bluing using 0000 steel wool and...
Hoppes #9 !!!
[Guys, I've had the best luck getting the rust off w/o scratching the bluing using 0000 steel wool and...
Hoppes #9 !!!
I disagree with both points - that oiled rust is as abrasive as dry rust and that dry rust magically vanishes.
What's impressed me more is the hundreds - literally hundreds - of guns I've removed rust from with 0000 steel wool and oil without damaging the bluing on a single one. Back in the 80's when you could still get a long gun cash and carry in California, I would buy a cheap beater almost every weekend and fix it up during the week. Since then I've worked for years in a gunshop and you wouldn't believe how rusty some of the gems people put on consignment are. I've removed enough rust off guns to build a small Fiat without once damaging the bluing on any of them.
So given that I disagree with the facts of your premise and since it runs counter to 25+ years of first hand experience, I hope you can appreciate my skepticism.
Peace.
Shane Tuttle
Staff
Skepticism? Yes. Your delivery? ....
All John was saying is his viewpoint and his own experience. Chest thumping about your experience and dismissing his isn't exactly the way to provide your viewpoint here. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Reminds me when I used to work at a car dealership. Two detailers thought each others' methods were completely ass-backwards and wrong. Yet both produced desireable results in the grand scheme of it all....
This isn't a "six of one, half a dozen of the other" difference of opinion about which technique gives a better shine, fresher breath or whiter whites. John started this thread warning us in dire tones that using oil to remove rust will damage bluing.
That's a pretty specific statement of fact, which IMO defies both logic and experience.
Let's leave it at that.
Except that I said neither.
I said they're "about" the same and they are. The abrasives in lapping compounds are still abrasive even though they're suspended in some sort of petroleum based product and while oil may provide some minimal protection against the abrasive action, it won't make an abrasive into a non-abrasive.
And I didn't say anything about anything "magically" vanishing. It's pretty easy to see that if you use oil that the dislodged rust particles are held in place by the oil and can't be easily dusted off as they can be if the removal is done dry. It's not magic at all, it's pretty straightforward logic that's easily verified for those who haven't already had a similar experience.
It doesn't defy logic at all, and I've taken pains to explain exactly why what I have said is logical. As far as defying experience, it clearly doesn't defy my experience although it's also clear that your experience and mine differ somewhat.
Rubbing rust on a blued finish will damage it because rust (iron oxide) is an abrasive and rubbing an abrasive on a blued finish will damage it. That said, is it possible to do it with only minimal, perhaps imperceptible damage? Clearly it is as your experience demonstrates. And before I tried it without oil, I was able to do a lot of rust removal using oil and 0000 steel wool without ruining guns although I did get some finish fading at times. However, after experimenting a little, I found that it was much easier to keep the finish intact if I didn't use oil during the actual rust removal process. Others I have mentioned this to have tried the method I suggested and achieved similar results.
Again, it's not like I have anything tied up in this. The only reason I pointed it out was because I have had a good bit of experience trying both methods while it appeared to me that most people had always assumed that it should be done with oil and never tried it any other way.
Again, I have no problem if people want to use oil (why would I?), but I think if they try both ways they will almost certainly get the same results I did.
Bill DeShivs
New member
The best of both methods is to liberally flush with WD 40-both the part and steel wool, and wipe the part down frequently. I have never used oil, as most oils are too thick and don't penetrate rust as easily as WD 40.
Edward429451
Moderator
I've always heard that you should not use steel wool on a gun because the steel particles will get into the pores of the metal and oxidize. One should use 0000 stainless steel wool.
Bill DeShivs said:
JohnKSa said:
Is this thread coming from the Twilight Zone? After arguing back and forth, someone else proposes precisely the method I've been advocating - keeping the steel wool wet and wiping the part down - and suddenly it makes sense.
You're right Bill, thin oils work best because they penetrate the rust better. WD-40 works just fine, although thicker oils will get the job done in a pinch.
You can rub enough steel into anything but highly polished stainless to then allow surface rust to occur if there is not enough oil present to protect the carbon steel.
I have seen it on brushed finished stainless guns, stainless knife blades, and even stainless kitchen sinks.
I remember shoeing a neighbor how to remove the rust on his kitchen sink from using SOS pads many years ago.
I customer had a stainless rifle that was not oiled well and brought in covered with light surface rust.
He regularly used steel wool to "even up" any minor scratches in the brushed finish, and was unaware that the gun needed at least some oil for protection.
Not just from tooling but cutting the steel atomic structure itself.
When you cut steel you end up with actual atoms of iron no longer protected by the structure of the steel.
Passivisation removes any exposed atoms of iron and leaves behind the alloying elements to form the protection layer.
I thought the protective chromium oxide layer was supposed to reform itself when you cut stainless, but that you had to have the right chromium percentage for that to work well. Also that the truly stainless stuff wasn't tough enough for gun barrels and knife edges, and so the stainless property was partly compromised in order to get other desirable characteristics for these applications. I haven't studied it carefully. I do know from experience that 318 stainless screws have to be passivated after you buy them, or you get rust stain bleed.