Removing case lube

So the thousands of rounds I've fired with case lube residue left on have not destroyed my rifle after all . Thanks for the warm and fuzzy confirmation Slamfire.
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I am glad to help. What you have observed, is that your firearms have not been damaged, I am certain you have not observed excessive pressures, traceable to a coating of light lubricant alone. Nullius in verba is the motto of the Royal Society. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Society It means, on the word of no one. The Royal Society was established in 1660, in a time period when anyone claiming that the scientific writings of the ancient Greeks were in error, was likely to be fined or imprisoned, or burnt at the stake for heresy. Science was based on the authority of these Greeks. These guys had been dead for thousands of years, were doing the best they could at the time, but, in most things, they were wrong. The Royal Society took the position that observations in the real world take precedence over authority. This was just at the beginning of what we call science, which is based on observation and repeatability.

Hatcherism and Ackleyism are authority based systems, and because my observations in the real world do not support them, and they lack repeatability, they must be fallacious.
 
My point was that an engineer start out knowing where or at what point there future product will fail then dedign something that can withstand that failure point . The way i read your post was to say the enggineer starts out "assuming" a failure point and designs from there . I may have misread or misunderstood what you wtote .

The rest of what you posted seems to cofirm my point . The designs them selves will not work right with out oilers or lubed cases . Those are all military use first actions or designed in hopes of a military adopting them .

It may be me but i never see these mordern oiled firearms at the range . I guess I'll look a little closer from now on .
 
It may be me but i never see these mordern oiled firearms at the range . I guess I'll look a little closer from now on
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You can see an historical example in this video:

Type 92 Japanese Machine gun, oiler function minute 14

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/type-92-japanese-hmg-at-james-d-julia/



Unless you happen to see a historical example at the range, I very much doubt you will ever see a weapon system using greased or oiled cases. Chamber flutes sent them all to the ash heap of history.



HK 91 chamber



P7 9mm Pistol chamber flutes



It has been so long that the American shooting community has forgotten about weapon systems that used grease or had oilers. Chamber flutes break the friction between case and chamber, and there are companies using chamber flutes to improve the ejection of AR15 rifles.

XTRAN Technology:






They are very careful not to call what they are doing "case lubrication" because of all the hysteria they will hear from Hatcherites and Ackleyites, but if you read their literature, that is what they are doing.
 
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Anyone who is curious should take a look at the work of former Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories engineer, Varmint Al. He has finite element analysis done on fancy government software that shows no petroleum lubricant can produce a low enough coefficient of friction to stop the case from absorbing at least some of the bolt thrust. Not even when the chamber and brass are given a mirror finish. He also has practical determinations of coefficient of friction described at other places on his site. Also FEA's of barrel harmonics and the conclusion that these "vibrations" are not actually what determines initial muzzle deflection that affects POI. Give the animations time to load to watch what exaggerated deformation looks like. Pretty good stuff.
 
I use Imperial exclusively, and just wipe it off w/ a paper towel. But it doesn't matter if not all comes off, as it won't disturb anything. Just make sure you use it extremely sparingly as the package directions state. I use so little to FL resize everything that you can't see it.
 
Unless you happen to see a historical example at the range, I very much doubt you will ever see a weapon system using greased or oiled cases. Chamber flutes sent them all to the ash heap of history
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You keep making my point for me :eek: haha . Who cares if once upon a time oiled cases were the norm . They aren't any more so don't go lubing up cartridges that were never design for it , is all I'm saying . I did not want to imply I don't think oiled or greased cases were ever used . I know they were , only that there is a reason that modern guns don't use lube so why are we lubing cases if it's not needed ? :cool:

FWIW Slamfire I love your posts and have learned a lot from you over the years on multiple forums . I'm really half joking with this argument and having a little fun . I'm saying this so we don't end up in some sort of feud:D I like to play devils advocate sometimes ;)
 
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If wiping lube off of 300 cases is too much work. Then I suggest that you get rid of your semi-auto... and use a bolt action. Then you won't be shooting up the brass so fast and you will have plenty of time to wipe the cases down with a solvent rag. Get rid of the ARs.
 
I think the OP was just looking for an easy way of doing what he is already doing, weather it needed to be done or not. he/she was also looking for a way to speed up the trimming proses (refer to post 1). I didn't see that discussed at all.

It has been a good read, but I think we digress. In the information provided for the case of not removing the lube I see no reference to modern firearms. The machining and design proses has most definitely improved since the dated materials referenced in this matter. Also I might point out that using a dry tumbling media most certainly will not remove ALLof the sizing wax. I would think you would need a chemical wash of some sort to have 100% clinically pure clean brass after sizing or anything for that matter. Just touching it with an un-gloved hand would transfer some amount of human oil to the brass. It is silly to think that the picture of what I would assume is a 30-06 case with the gob bees wax on it is a field ready round. Would you put that in your coat pocket or in a tubular magazine, or even a box mag for that matter, I think not. For the bench or any other controlled environment sure. I do not disagree that oil and or wax on a cartridge may be necessary in the function of period machine guns and possibly some rifles. But I don't see the need for it in modern utilitarian rifles that are properly maintained especially when in the field where one might encounter adverse conditions, or where one might simply choose to unload the rifle and try again tomorrow.

Where is F-Guffey when you need him on the shoulder bump issue. Thought for sure he would chime in.

Again thanks for the read every one. This is a great forum to gain knowledge and understanding of the things I love.
 
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They aren't any more so don't go lubing up cartridges that were never design for it , is all I'm saying . I did not want to imply I don't think oiled or creased cases were ever used .
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The foremost reason I am firing lubed cases is to save money. Money is important to me, I do not have vast reserves of the stuff, and what I do have is not growing as fast as the rate of inflation. I have noticed that cartridges and brass are increasing at several times the rate of inflation. Has anyone priced the cost of 300 H&H Magnum cases or found cheap 257 Roberts brass? I waited for years, till this year, when I was able to buy new 257 Roberts brass at $2.00 a case! Ugh! I don't want to stretch the stuff so much that it develops case head separations on first firings. Only air heads are so rich to be profligate with their money.

If you don't know what a case head separation looks like, this is what it looks like:



On the way to earning my Distinguished Rifleman Badge with an M1a, I took a set of 100 LC 64 cases 23 reloads without a single case head separation. I rubbed Johnson paste wax on the outside of the cases and buffed the rapid fire rounds. Sometimes I left the case lube on the cases, but I did not like the greasy feel, and of course, no range I shot at has hot and cold running water, or a bathroom! I did have cases that developed neck splits or body splits. I sectioned those cases. R stands for the number of times reloaded. No case developed any case head necking. The usual advise for cases in M1's and M1a's is to load them five times and toss them, because these rifles are very bad about stretching cases. I saved a lot of money by not ruining good LC NM cases. I stopped using them when the primer pockets enlarged.



I have this Marlin 336 that has a huge chamber and the base to shoulder distance of the chamber is way out of spec. If I had not lubricated my 30-30 cases on the first firing, they probably would have been stretched so much that I would not have been able to use them again, or at most, a couple of times, before the case head detached. Instead, the case slid to the bolt face, the side walls were not stretched, and the shoulders folded out to produce a stress free perfect fit to the chamber. As it was, I lubed them before firing, and they shot well. I challenge anyone to shoot ten shot groups at 200 yards with their 30-30 lever action and keep all the shots in the seven inch ten ring.






 
I am glad to help. What you have observed, is that your firearms have not been damaged, I am certain you have not observed excessive pressures, traceable to a coating of light lubricant alone.
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I was more being facetious to those who would imply that a little residual lube left on the case would be detrimental to function. I knew this already and didn't need confirmation.

With that being said, however, keep on posting. I'm eating what you're serving sir, and learning that there may be applications to purposefully lube live rounds. Especially in instances of fire-forming brass. Good stuff.
 
Anyone who is curious should take a look at the work of former Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories engineer, Varmint Al. He has finite element analysis done on fancy government software that shows no petroleum lubricant can produce a low enough coefficient of friction to stop the case from absorbing at least some of the bolt thrust
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Some claim they want to rough up the chamber and case to get a better grip, I want a 100% contact between the case and chamber, 100% contact is better than the cross hatch pattern some believe is the best for grip.

I prefer a shiny/smooth surface on my chamber and case; same for my rotors and drums. When it comes to a smooth stop, and then? There are those conspiracy buffs. They do not have a clue; they can grease up one drum or rotor and then test drive. I can save them time, work and effort because the grease/fluid on the surface of the drum will cause the steering wheel to be jerked out of their hand, I say hand because I can not see them driving with both hands on the wheel.

Now tell me? If that fluid/grease allowed slide and glide what locked the wheel and caused the tire to slide. In the beginning there was a problem with bullets that streaked the barrel, removing the streaks required effort. So? They greased the bullet to reduce streaking. And then right up to the early '50s there were cautions about the bullet and removing the streaks.

I want my case to lock to the chamber, I find nothing about greasing my bullets that is entertaining, I want nothing between the case and chamber but air. I do not want a lot of air.

And then there is forming, if a reloader can not form cases to fit I guess they can grease their bullets, I have never been impressed with slide and glide shooting but some get all giggly with it. All of this about a bullet that streaked the barrel.

F. Guffey
 
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