Remorse

[green_MTman]

REMORSE !!!

last deer i took droped on the spot with but a 120 grain bullet

i would feel more remorse for the animals who supply our stores.
unlike deer they dont spend there lives running free,they live in prisons called cattle ranches and are then sent to slaughter houses where its a known fact these cows exibit profound fear.

the way pigs are raised,almost cruelty.

i am not trying to put down farmers and ranchers because they raise animals the only way you can and my mother inlaws boyfriend raises cows and pigs on a small farm in new hamshire.if cows ran free what cow would voluntarlaly check in to a slaughter house.and i know the way pigs and veal are raised is getting more humane.


the point is that hunting is far far far less cruel than the super market and dont forget predetors as well.a deer would rather a clean fast rifle kill than death by coyote,cougar,wolf,bobcat,lynx or bear

 

[huntinaz]

Originally posted by huntinaz:
In my opinion, remorse or empathy for the animal doesn't come into play naturally except in the modern human who is removed from how things have always been in nature.

Originally posted by Buck460XVR:Giving an animal respect and thanks after the kill is not something "new" created by modern hunters. Hunters since the beginning of time have worshiped the animals they hunted and paid them great respect before, during and after the hunt, even tho killing that animal meant food for them and their family, not just another set of horns on the wall. It is still common with the Indigenous Peoples in all parts of the world.

To clarify, my statement was about remorse, sympathy and empathy for the animal. I was not commenting on the thanks or appreciation or ritual expressed by humans since forever at the notion of getting and having meat to eat. Worrying about what the prey think about the deal is what I feel is quite modern.

 

[huntinaz]

People have worshiped the animals they have hunted for years. Native Americans had whole ceremonies attributed to it. I believe the "sacred cow" is proof that animal worship still exists.

Back to animal worship, I'm not debating the "respect" of the Native American but it's not exactly the white Christian's idea either, then or now. Common practice, as I understand it, was for men of various ages to mount a horse, find a herd of buffalo, shoot them full of arrows and chase them around until they died, all the while whooping and hollering and having a good time. Then the women would come and butcher and preserve the meat while the men started celebrating by singing and dancing and eating and storytelling of the event. They'd make weapons and tools out of the bones. They'd paint the scenes on stuff to remember it. They would name themselves after hunting sometimes (antelope woman, two elk etc). When the hunting party was for humans, they'd take scalps. Trophy taking was very much a part of their culture.

My point is that while they "respected" the fact that they were completely dependent on the buffalo for food and shelter (tipis/clothers), they also ejoyed the hell out of killing them and they whooped and hollered when they were successful. They sure as hell weren't sorry for it. Remorse was not at all one of their sentiments.

Back to my example, I was with my brother when I shot that buck. It's the biggest either of us have killed. We did some laughing, hollering, atta boys. You can see I'm smiling in the pictures we took. I should get the mount back end of this week. It's really not all that disimilar in priciple to what the plains indians were doing 200 years ago, no?

Well guess what? White Christians didn't like it back then either. They watched that melee I just described and thought it was a pretty "savage" bunch. They weren't exactly viewed or treated as equals.



***Notice also that modern ethics had no part in it. Hobbling an animal and running/bleeding it to death are not pretty. They didn't silently sneak up and shoot a perfectly placed arrow thru the vitals and wait a half hour for it to die peacefully. They mounted up and ran the sumbitch to death after they got some arrows in it. They were concerned about their bellies, their kids and wives bellies, their tribe eating a meal. Their actions suggest what the animal was "feeling" did not enter into their thinking. Enter Walt Disney.

 

[Buzzcook]

It's the whole circle of life thing. We recognize our own mortality in the life and death of the game we take.

A little introspection now and then is a good thing.

 

[Marty8613]

Almost

When the hunting party was for humans, they'd take scalps.

They did not do this, until taught it by the white settlers.

Yes they whooped and hollered a bit, but they did help. Also, horses did not exist here until the Spanish brought them. So much of what was stated here, was learned by the immigrants to the Americas. The Aztecs for sure had extreme brutality towards others, but the smaller tribes through out much of what is the modern USA, were a very peaceful people, with only a few exceptions. The things they did, were in response to the things done to them. BTW, thanks for the smallpox littered blankets.

Marty8613 - Yaqui tribe.

Edit - to the OP. There is nothing wrong having some feeling towards your prey. You are making use of what you kill. It is how life is. I wish more people understood, that eating meat, means killing something. You are being honest with your place in life.

 

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Brian Pleuger:

I'd be happy to via PM, if you'd like, but it's not really a topic for the forum.

The point is, they're not both right. If the creation (or material things of some sort) are to be worshiped, the creator is not. If the Creator is worshiped, He would be unhappy of the creation being worshiped.

If it's so off topic, why did you bring it up in the first place? Pm me if you want, but IMHO, PMs of that sort, are the cowards way out. If you have something to say and it has any value, say it in public so it so all can read. I never said modern Christians worshiped animal Gods or that it was right. You put those words in my mouth.

Originally posted by huntinaz:

To clarify, my statement was about remorse, sympathy and empathy for the animal.

No where did I say anything about remorse or sympathy, or that it was right or wrong. I feel that is completely up to the individual hunter. I only mentioned respect and giving thanks.

I am not criticizing anyone here for their actions and feelings, so I'm having a hard time understanding why you folks are so concerned with mine. Again, the OP asked for opinions and when I gave mine, and it does not match his exactly....I must be wrong or somehow an inferior hunter.....yeah, Okay.

The folks in the "Kodiak" episode are two of the most respected and sought after Brown Bear Guides in Alaska, and they gave thanks after the kill. Someone needs to tell them they're wrong and wimpy. I am indifferent towards Ted Nugent, but many here think he walks on water. He gives thanks and says a prayer after his kill. What an idiot, eh?


As for the driving around with Bambi on the bumper. This is the reason some hunters hunt....to attempt to show how manly they are to others by showing off dead animals.

Besides, hanging Bambi on a fender keeps deer ticks and blood off the carpet.

Maybe, but it's well known the wind and sun on Bambi is hide is makin' him sour. Better to put him in the shade inside. Also well known is that blood is hard on automotive paint. While there may be times when there's no other way to transport Bambi.......on the fender is far down on the list of preferred ones. At least to those that like to eat Bambi.

 

[Jay24bal]

As long as I make a quick, clean kill, I feel no remorse.

I know that the animal is not going to waste and that I will take bit of meat from it, and use the pelt as well.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

Let's leave the treatment of Indians out of the discussion, please. It's less than irrelevant to the topic.

 

[huntinaz]

Originally posted by Buck460XVR

If I wish to thank him for letting me enjoy a piece of his art, why should it be an issue to you?

It's not at all. There's been a ritual around hunting since forever, far as I can tell anyway. Every culture does it different. We're in kind of a unique spot in that we're free do do what we want. There's no "one ritual fits all" in current American society, especially not regarding hunting.

I think it's great, what you practice. It's just not what I do although I certainly have a strong appreciation for the species and the hunt. I love deer. There's nothing like watching a big bull elk drag his tired arse out of a herd to bugle his head off at another bull trying to hone in on his action. And when I'm successful and bringing one down, I am happy and I am not sad. Just trying to shed some light on why I don't think being happy about it is disrespectful to the animal.

 

[SVTCobra306]

You should consider yourself fortunate that you get to hunt a buck with a rifle. Here, there's considerable celebration after a day's hunt whenever we get our bucks, because, depending on the season, all we get to use are shotguns, pistols, or muzzleloaders. We did have a late doe season where we could use rifles in my part of the state, but it's likely to get nixed for the coming season.

On the flip side though, we have decent sized bucks and a large herd to choose from. Anything under about a 140 isn't likely to get shot at very much, unless it's an older buck who never got very big to begin with and needs weeded out.

My attitude towards wild game is a little off the beaten path, but I'm a farmer and a cattleman, and every deer we can get we will, the amount of damage they do in a year is incredible. Same for raccoons and turkeys, and coyotes. If we didn't have a single deer, raccoon, or turkey on the farm I could trade pickups every couple of years with the extra income.

 

[huntinaz]

Again, the OP asked for opinions and when I gave mine, and it does not match his exactly....I must be wrong or somehow an inferior hunter.....yeah, Okay.

Not at all what I was getting at Buck. Those aren't my words.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

If it's so off topic, why did you bring it up in the first place? Pm me if you want, but IMHO, PMs of that sort, are the cowards way out. If you have something to say and it has any value, say it in public so it so all can read. I never said modern Christians worshiped animal Gods or that it was right. You put those words in my mouth.

I put no words in anyone's mouth. My God, people are grumpy today.

How is this so unclear?

I never said that Christians worship animals. Never used the words christian or worship at all, speaking of putting words in people's mouths.

You mentioned that the Indians worshiped the animals and that others thank the creator. I said that those two things can't both be true/valid beliefs. You asked me which one is correct. It's off topic for the thread (and entire forum) so I said you can PM me if you'd like.

References to certain practices by any given religion or belief system, as they may relate tangentially to the discussion may or may not be valid. An entire redirect of the discussion as to the correctness of one religious/belief system over another is is not valid and is specifically against forum rules.

You (and everyone else) will drop the name calling and inferences.

 

[Pond James Pond]

The OP asks if members think he is a psychopath. Don't know. Doubt it!

All I can say is how I might feel.

I still hope to get my hunting licence, but if/when I do shoot an animal I expect I will feel pretty awful about it.

I was brought up not to harm. Animals, or people. I do not like causing suffering. One very good reason for learn to drop an animal in its tracks, and for why I respect those hunters who work hard to limit pain and pay tribute to their prey once the deed is done.

In addition I have been an avid watcher and enjoyer of nature so to then kill one of the things I have relished seeing so very much would leave me feeling quite bad.

Nonetheless, it is a skill I want to learn. Whether the feelings above dissipate over time, or are such that I never hunt again, only time will tell.

There it is.

 

[markj]

Depends on the animal, some are made for us to kill and eat, others not so much.

Any body watch the show "Kodiak" last night? What did they do when they finally put a big Bruin down? They showed respect and thanked the animal for giving it's life, while remembering the fact that only moments before the animal was alive.

Yes, I myself would not hunt the bear, he is a hunter as I am and I feel we are both related in some way. Deer amd elk? kill em and eat them. Cougars? only if it is harrassing my stuff.

 

[hooligan1]

I dont have remorse for my clean kills. And I do hive thanks to the Lord for lettin me even see one of his critters.....amen....and tasty...

 

[Mike1234]

I posted in others threads... it's not the sadness of killing for the food... nor the happiness of bringing home food for the family... nor the fun of the hunt. What bothers me is hunters who take such immense glee in the killing itself (rare as they may be). I've seen many of them laugh and giggle so hard after taking down an animal that they literally lose their breath. To me that's sick. If we kill to survive and feed our families then we should be far more reverent and respectful of the lives we took. I will never understand the elation some people experience in taking another life regardless of need.

 

[huntinaz]

I dont have remorse for my clean kills.

This has been mentioned a few times and I'm with y'all on that. I hate making a bad shot and have remorse when I do. I don't like to inflict pain and not be able to finish the job. That's where I feel empathy and sympathy should play a role and I certainly have it then. In other words, I can appreciate a gutshot deer is experiencing pain and I don't like causing undue suffering. That's a different situation than a successful hunt, and brings about different emotions. At least for me.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I think you should be a tad pensive when you take the life away from something. But, it is the way nature works.

 

[leadcounsel]

In my unlicensed psychologist viewpoint - it is sick and demented for anyone to take any real PLEASURE in killing a living creature. Even in war, or in self-defense, it is upsetting to kill. If one takes enjoyment in ending the life of a creature, that's a sign of a mental illness. Go tell 10 people on the street of all ages and genders that you enjoy killing living creatures and see their reaction. I bet 9 out of 10 will avoid you or think you are weird.

Now, there are a variety of reasons we humans (higher intellectual beings with rational thought, emotions, sense of right and wrong, etc.) kill.

Generally from most justifiable to least:

1. Self defense, self preservation, food and clothing, other necessity. Category 1 is IMO acceptable human behavior. It's not to be enjoyed. Enjoying the hunt, bonding with friends/family, nature in general, the skill of the hunt, is IMO acceptable. Enjoying the pain and suffering, even momentarily, that you cause at terminating life is an unfit reaction IMO. I don't feel elated about the death of the cow on my plate or the leather it provided for my clothing. I appreciate that cow, but I'm not happy it died. If I were attacked by a wild animal, stray dog, or rattle snake, I might take it's life. Again, not happy to kill it. It was necessary. If I came upon a wounded suffering animal, I would end it's suffering. I would take no pleasure in it. If attacked by a person, even an evil person wanting to kill me, I would act in self defense and may legally and justifiably kill that person. I would take no pleasure in it.

I eat meat and use animal products. I enjoy the products but take zero pleasure in the deaths. In a similar vein, I live in a nation where many people died, innocently, at the hands of greedy people. Native American, slaves, women, children, etc. I take no pleasure in their deaths, but I do appreciate them and the land.

These are facts of life.

I always try to buy free range animal products and non-animal tested products because I believe in the ethical treatment of animals. While I do agree that a bullet to the heart/lungs is better than what farm raised livestock get, it's still ending a life prematurely.

People can justify in their minds all they want (I'm saving this deer from a slow starvation death at some point in the future, or being eaten by a coyote, blah blah blah). The fact is that these arguments are invalid as it relates to say, for instance, killing a person. So they are equally fallible when killing a deer, coyote, whatever. (Yes I know the difference between the legalities of hunting people versus humans, let's not get sidetracked here.)

Question: Dear hunter can take only 1 deer. He sees a few deer in a field - large buck with big rack and some medium bucks and some does and medium and small deer, and a sickly old deer with missing fur. Which deer does the hunter take? It won't be putting this sickly old one out of misery or compassion. So that invalidates the humane argument from prior posts.

2. Accident. If I hit a deer with my car, I'm not happy that I killed it. If I negligently or accidently killed any animal, I would not be happy about it, or enjoy its suffering.

3. Amusement, humor, sadistic reasons. The sadists who dog fight, produce crush videos, cock fighting, lighting gasoline-covered animals on fire, electrocuting them, etc. In my mind, there is little different between the person who goes out and blasts 20 rats in the junkyard, coyotes in the forest, prarie dogs in the field, and the guy who abuses dogs in dog-fighting, or the people who make the crush videos.

Some hunters here either refuse to accept, or purposefully ignore, the almost daily glee that is posted on this forum from the entertainment killing that goes on. These sport kills should be beneath us, and they are detrimental to gun owners rights and perpetuate the dumb, unsympathetic, ignorant, hillbilly and redneck stereotypes.

I'm not anti-hunting and I love to eat game. That's not my message here.

Of course a lot of support for hunters is going to be generated on a pro-hunting and pro-gun website... Anyone here that enjoys the actual taking of any life, I challenge you to go into town and have a brief conversation with 10 actual strangers, and poll them or tell them that when you hunt, you enjoy taking life and watching it die. Report back with their response.

As enlightened responsible humans, and gun owners, it seems as though members here would be above taking actual pleasure in terminating life. Some of the attitudes on this forum, and others, is astoundingly ignorant. Relying on "this is how humans have always been" is a copout. Humans have evolved. We are an enlightened species. For example, human males USED to take women by force. We no longer do that. Granted, this is an extreme example, but it demonstrates the point that we no longer BEHAVE certain ways because we became enlightened and figured right versus wrong.

We now know that animals think, communicate, and feel pain and fear.

 

[SVTCobra306]

WOW that is reading way too deep into it. Sorry but there's no telling me that isn't an anti-hunting point of view. According to you, every one of us who has been happy to see a trophy buck fall must be a bloodthirsty sadistic killer with serious mental problems. Don't ever visit rural Iowa buddy, you'd be surrounded by bloodthirsty sadistic killers. They can be identified by Realtree or Mossy Oak camo clothing, and most of them drive pickup trucks LOL!

There's a really big difference between killing an animal and wanting to watch it suffer, believe me. And having been on both sides of the coin (see signature, I was a Cavalry Section Sergeant in the 82nd deployed from 07-08, our AO was Sadr City, I earned my Bronze Star), I shouldn't have to tell you personally it's a huge difference between squeezing a trigger on a human vs. squeezing one on an animal.