Remington 700 rifle

See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.
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Watch or re-watch the video posted in post #2 from the 10:00 to 13:00 minute marks.
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The video show testimony that no debris was found on a specific set of rifle(s) in one particular case. That doesn't disprove the debris theory, it just wasn't the cause on those particular rifle(s). In addition to debris, there are other to get the rifle to fire:

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf

Yes, Remington's testing showed that only a very small percentage could be fired inadvertently. But 1% of a million rifles is 10,000 rifles, and Remington has made several million Model 700s with the trigger in question. That's 40 or 50 thousand defective rifles, which isn't a whole lot - unless one of them is yours.
 
natman said:
The video show testimony that no debris was found on a specific set of rifle(s) in one particular case. That doesn't disprove the debris theory, it just wasn't the cause on those particular rifle(s). In addition to debris, there are other to get the rifle to fire:

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/docs/Remington-79-80-Memo.pdf

Yes, Remington's testing showed that only a very small percentage could be fired inadvertently. But 1% of a million rifles is 10,000 rifles, and Remington has made several million Model 700s with the trigger in question. That's 40 or 50 thousand defective rifles, which isn't a whole lot - unless one of them is yours.
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I just look at that Remington Memo and it looks like that blows the "Remington (and it's experts) could "NEVER" replicate an accidental discharge, unless the trigger had been tampered with" excuse out of the water. (but they would say that wouldnt they).
 
I just look at that Remington Memo and it looks like that blows the "Remington (and it's experts) could "NEVER" replicate an accidental discharge, unless the trigger had been tampered with" excuse out of the water. (but they would say that wouldnt they).
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Actually, they didn't say that. They said than of the guns that they got sued for, neither Remington, nor the plaintiff lawyers were able to replicate what the person who shot their friend/kid/wife claimed happened.

Subtle difference.

Watch the Remington video in post 2, the Ambulance-chaser expert who came up with the dirt-in-the-connector theory states he has never been able to test it, and wouldn't because it would be essentially impossible to replicate.

I have two Remington 700s, both of which I have adjusted the trigger. If you make the trigger too light, or the sear engagement too small, you can make the rifle unsafe.

This whole thing is a BS smear job by CNBC to try and get ratings. Nothing more.
 
@bacardisteve I believe these cases go back to the seventies or even the sixties.
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They go back even further. The same trigger mechanism was used on the Remington M721.

One Greybeard I know told me of two hardware store new M721's that discharged through the floorboard of cars when their safeties were taken off. The owners were unloading their rifles while standing beside the vehicles.

I found this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307130

Did you notice in the first thread where the guy's M721 discharged when the safety was taken off.

This thread lead me to the Remington factory recall


http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls 4.htm

REMINGTON
MODEL 700,CENTER FIRE RIFLES MFG BEFORE 1982
MODEL 600, 660, 721, 722 40-X RIFLES MFG BEFORE MARCH 1982
MODEL XP-100 TARGET PISTOL MFG BEFORE FEBRUARY 1975

RECALL: Remington Arms Company, Inc. is offering a safety modification program for certain bolt-action centerfire firearms manufactured prior to 1982, including the Model 700, Model 600, 660, 721, 722, 40-X bolt-action rifles (made before March 1982) and Model XP-100 target pistols made before February 1975.

These firearms have a feature known as a bolt-lock that requires the safety to be placed in the “off” position in order to unload the gun. If you participated in this program, your firearm will be modified to eliminate the bolt-lock feature. The operation of your gun will not be otherwise affected.

http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/a/aacbsnewsrem700_2.htm

I have read a number of threads on the M700 trigger. One thread, a poster reported a death that occurred in El Paso when an owner was unloading his M700 in the drive way of his house. It discharged in the air, but a lady, perhaps mowing the lawn, was killed when the bullet hit her.

The Remington over ride trigger and its sear blocking safety have reinforced in me a distrust of over ride triggers in general, and sear blocking safeties in particular. I believe a proper rifle safety holds the firing pin back, like a M98 or M70. The only mechanisms with military two stage triggers are military rifles, those triggers are just about impossible to jar "off", but the market likes over ride triggers and their tiny sear engagement surfaces. So that is what we have.
 
both me and my older brother grew up with 700s both in 243. I was always taught that any gun can fail and a safety does not guarantee safety so I was always taught not to engage the safety but instead carry with the bolt lifted so it is physically impossible to fire. when you are ready to fire drop the bolt and now you "safety" is off. that's how I've always used bolt guns and have never had an accidental discharge.
 
I just bought a new 700 SPS Buckmasters .270 with the X-Mark Pro adjustable trigger. It comes at 3-1/2 lbs. (mine did) and adjusts down to 3 lbs. which is what they say it does. Mine did exactly as they said it does. Why anyone would want a lighter trigger pull on a HUNTING rifle is beyond me. I don't care how long a range you're shooting.

People tinkering with the old triggers no doubt causes 99.9% of all the Remington trigger issues IMHO.

Remington has also muddled up the trigger adjusting issue with a owner's manual saying not to adjust it or your warranty is void and then puts a video on their website or YouTube(?) showing you how to adjust the X-Mark Pro trigger. ***?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOpzbe-BzDo

??????????????? :confused:
 
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I'm not going to argue the point of defective. My assessment of the trigger is that it is inherently safe design. I'm not really wanting to go into that. If remington did admit fault and recall, it would destroy the company. Period. Finished. There is nothing at all they can do in this situation but go out of business.

I'm really embarrassed for most of the people that I have heard these stories from. Especially one, a woman carrying an 8 mm magnum who dropped her safety while aimed at a trailer, and blew a hole through her son. This may not be a totally accurate report, but the base facts are there.

If we utilize logic from other controversial issues, let's see what we get.

The 30-30 has dropped millions of deer in the century sicne it was created. Nothing wrong with a 30 30, even though they have no safety system, just a notch on the hammer.

millions of critters have been done in by the 700. nothing wrong with it.

It has to be considered; when the bolt is put down and the safety engaged, THAT TRIGGER HAS TO BE PULLED BEFORE IT CAN FIRE WHEN THE SAFETY DISENGAGES.

Almost any firearm is vulnerable to striker/sear failure. My brother had a 1911 that he had tweaked, and it would slam fire and go full auto because his sear engagement was barely a hairs width.

I'm not going to support any sort of crusade against a firearm company because there were issues like this that can't happen unless there was some external force that caused it.

When somebody shows me a rifle that fires as the bolt is engaged, then, I'll feel a little different.
 
The 30-30 has dropped millions of deer in the century sicne it was created. Nothing wrong with a 30 30, even though they have no safety system, just a notch on the hammer.
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A young man I met borrowed a 30-30 carbine. He was familiar with H&R Topper shotguns, a mechanism that has a transfer bar. You carry the Topper with the hammer down.

Going to his hunting location he had the carbine chambered with the hammer down. It was slung on his back, along with his back pack. He dropped his colored tape, leaned over to pick it up, the back pack swung over and hit the hammer. The rifle discharged next to his head, leaving powder burns and leading to a loss of hearing in that ear. If the barrel had been just a couple inches over, I would never have met the gent.

While that is an example of unfamiliarity with a firearm, there are accounts of people lowering that hammer to the half cock notch and losing control. You have to hold the trigger back to lower the hammer, lose control and it goes all the way.

If you notice, Marlin 30-30’s now have a side safety that blocks the hammer. That is a better system than a half cock.

I suppose everyone knows how the term “going off half cocked” originated?

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/half-cocked.html
 
I took several rifles to the range Saturday, all but the M94 Winchester were old military rifles. I had with me a 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser, 7mm Chilean Mauser, M-17 Enfield, SMLE III, and a Russian SKS. ALL of these rifles (with the exception of the M94) had the bolts removed unless I was on the firing line.

The SKS had the worst trigger of them all. I've seen gate latches that were smoother. There was a noticable "first stage" that almost made a click it was so bad. After that you had to take up even more to get it to break. Truly horrible as triggers go. Will I "tinker" with it to smooth it up? No way!

Are there defective designs? Yes. Are there defective parts or part failures? Yes. Are there unsafe firearms handling practices? Yes, probably more than the other two combined. The most important safety rides around between your ears all day. While it is tragic that folks were injured or killed, had proper safety practices been followed I doubt that anyone would have had more than a bad scare...

The first three rules my dad taught me long ago:

ALWAYS treat any gun as if it were loaded.
ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.
NEVER trust a safety.
 
This whole thing is a BS smear job by CNBC to try and get ratings. Nothing more.
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This issue has been around much longer than CNBC has existed. Rifles have been going off for 50 years. It was well documented as far back as the early 1970's. There were TV news programs reporting this back in the 70's and again in the 90's. CNBC broke no new ground and gave an accurate report of the problem.

You need to watch Remingtons response to CNBCs "under fire" report at Remington700.tv it explains everything
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You need to read between the lines. Carefully crafted lawyer speak BS.

By Remingtons own records there have been over 10,000 reports to them of rifles firing with no trigger pull. Remington admits to this, but claims that they were all either because someone altered the trigger, or actually pulled the trigger and just don't remember. If you believe that many folks managed to do this with Remingtons, you have to conclude that Remington owners are the worlds dumbest gun owners. A trigger that has been modified improperly can and probably did lead to some of these, but not 10,000 times. Folks adjust the triggers on Winchesters, Rugers, Weatherby's and any other brand of gun too. No one is claiming those guns are firing on their own.



“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”
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Very few of us have ever been struck by lightening, or ever seen anyone else be struck by lightning. That does not prove it doesn't happen.


When somebody shows me a rifle that fires as the bolt is engaged, then, I'll feel a little different.
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I own one that has done it. The trigger has never been touched since leaving the factory. On several occasions it has dropped the firing pin when the safety was moved to the fire position. Luckily it did it when it was not loaded. I thought at first I MUST have pulled the trigger. I spent about an hour opening and closing the bolt and disengaging the safety with the gun unloaded. It repeated it 3-4 more times out of 100 or more tries. The gun has since been retired.

I'm not out to destroy Remington. Hope they do well. The issues here were started years ago and none of the folks responsible for this problem work there any more. Current management is just trying to do damage control. But to bury your heads in the sand and pretend the problem does not exist is the wrong approach. I compare it to older single action revolvers. Almost everyone knows they are dangerous to load a round under the hammer. That is because Colt, Ruger, and anyone else who ever made one went out of their way to educate people. I've known about this issue for 40 years, actually own one that will fire on its own and still own Remingtons and would buy another.
 
emcon5 said:
Actually, they didn't say that. They said than of the guns that they got sued for, neither Remington, nor the plaintiff lawyers were able to replicate what the person who shot their friend/kid/wife claimed happened.

Subtle difference.
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But if you go back and watch it they say that the 700 Trigger/Saftey doesn't have a problem/defect.

With the Remington's Response, does anyone know who (what TV company) made that or was it made by Remington?
 
Remington has also muddled up the trigger adjusting issue with a owner's manual saying not to adjust it or your warranty is void and then puts a video on their website or YouTube(?) showing you how to adjust the X-Mark Pro trigger. ***?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOpzbe-BzDo
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I just recently bought a R700 with the X-mark trigger - So i've been following this thread just to see the outcome and read more information about the issue. I know the X-mark is not affected by the issues, but figured i'd chime in on this one.

My new Remington book (R700 less than 3 months old) on page 9 says that adjustment to the non-adjustable X-mark triggers will void warranty. This is understandable because this trigger system is not designed by them to be adjustable by the user. It does tell you in the book that making adjustments to the mechanism other than those defined in this book will void the warranty.

The Video shows a rifle with the X-mark pro which is designed to be adjustable by the user. It does not void your warranty to adjust this trigger, only the X-mark (non-pro). The directions for doing the X-mark pro are also listed in the book so making these adjustments should not void the warranty.
 
I own one that has done it. The trigger has never been touched since leaving the factory. On several occasions it has dropped the firing pin when the safety was moved to the fire position. Luckily it did it when it was not loaded. I thought at first I MUST have pulled the trigger. I spent about an hour opening and closing the bolt and disengaging the safety with the gun unloaded. It repeated it 3-4 more times out of 100 or more tries. The gun has since been retired.
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What did Remington say when you contacted them?
 
Going to his hunting location he had the carbine chambered with the hammer down. It was slung on his back, along with his back pack. He dropped his colored tape, leaned over to pick it up, the back pack swung over and hit the hammer. The rifle discharged
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Why was the gun loaded and on his back?


If it has to be so ready to go that a round is in the chamber, it needs to be in his hands, ready to go.

I hate the hammer block on the modern Marlins- Half cock does just fine...... hammer all the way down on a live round is just stupid.
 
This 700 trigger topic always gets so emotional. It's almost like there's hatred toward Remington in some of the posts. Accidents happen. It's our job to make sure we are all safe, which includes everyone around us.

Remington are not the bad guys. Brand loyalty is fine but all the big brands need each other to keep our sport alive and well.

If you've had an accident or witnessed one, and want to subsequently avoid the brand in you hand at the time that's your prerogative. But be honest with yourself, could you have prevented it? If your answer is "no" then please stay at home and our fields and deserts and forests will be safer.

-SS-
 
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