Wow! Watched the TV show tonight on the Remington 700 and I cannot understand how Remington is still in business! I had read about the trigger problem on some of these rifles and according to the show, there are 50,000 of these defective rifles in the hands of the public! If you believe the information, the entire trigger assembly and safety system needs to be replaced. Remington refuses to admit there is a problem! Lots of customers have had their rifles fire without pulling the trigger.
Remington 700 rifle
- Thread starter KBP75
- Start date
Sweet Shooter
New member
Romeo 33 Delta
New member
My wife and I watched this last year. We took a copy of it to our gunsmith for him to watch as well.
We are of the opinion that there's a lot of information we don't have about all of this ... but there are certainly some SERIOUS issues of INSANELY CAVALIER MISHANDLING OF FIREARMS in virtually EVERY ONE OF THESE SHOOTINGS.
NEVER been out shooting and then brought a LOADED firearm into my home.
NEVER been out shooting and then put a LOADED firearm into my trunk.
NEVER pointed a firearm at an UNINTENDED target.
NEVER put my finger into the trigger guard until ready to shoot.
I learned these rules at my father's knee when I was about 8 years old. I'm 66 now and have been around guns for most of my life. I've been a combat infantryman in my youth and an avid shooter for decades (still am).
There might be some other situations on that program I have forgotten, and I'm sorry for the injury and loss of life ... but I'm NOT convinced that the rifle is at fault. I've had used rifles that have been so badly "gunsmithed" that they would discharge when the action was closed. I know for a fact that these rifles DID NOT leave the factory in that condition. No, some shooter needed a more sensitive trigger and messed with it.
Could it be the Model #700 is potentially defective? Possible, unlikely. Could it be that someone improperly adjusted the trigger or caused some associated problems? Highly probable. Could it be that the rifle hadn't been properly cleaned for years? Highly probable. Could it be just instances of lack of proper handling and/or lack of diligence? Extremely probable. I own #700's and I have not stopped shooting them. I don't treat them as any more dangerous that any of my other rifles, commercial or military.
PS (I also spent my life around power wood working tools and can still count to 10 using ONLY my fingers and thumbs, all of which are still their original length.)
We are of the opinion that there's a lot of information we don't have about all of this ... but there are certainly some SERIOUS issues of INSANELY CAVALIER MISHANDLING OF FIREARMS in virtually EVERY ONE OF THESE SHOOTINGS.
NEVER been out shooting and then brought a LOADED firearm into my home.
NEVER been out shooting and then put a LOADED firearm into my trunk.
NEVER pointed a firearm at an UNINTENDED target.
NEVER put my finger into the trigger guard until ready to shoot.
I learned these rules at my father's knee when I was about 8 years old. I'm 66 now and have been around guns for most of my life. I've been a combat infantryman in my youth and an avid shooter for decades (still am).
There might be some other situations on that program I have forgotten, and I'm sorry for the injury and loss of life ... but I'm NOT convinced that the rifle is at fault. I've had used rifles that have been so badly "gunsmithed" that they would discharge when the action was closed. I know for a fact that these rifles DID NOT leave the factory in that condition. No, some shooter needed a more sensitive trigger and messed with it.
Could it be the Model #700 is potentially defective? Possible, unlikely. Could it be that someone improperly adjusted the trigger or caused some associated problems? Highly probable. Could it be that the rifle hadn't been properly cleaned for years? Highly probable. Could it be just instances of lack of proper handling and/or lack of diligence? Extremely probable. I own #700's and I have not stopped shooting them. I don't treat them as any more dangerous that any of my other rifles, commercial or military.
PS (I also spent my life around power wood working tools and can still count to 10 using ONLY my fingers and thumbs, all of which are still their original length.)
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I have a 700BDL that I purchased new back in 1964. It has an absolutely super trigger, always has, from out of the box. 2 1/2 lb pull, no creep at all, crisp clean break,,,just super, could not ask for a better trigger, and the weapon has NEVER unintentionally fired, ever, and I have shot it a lot.
Now, that said. Crisp, and no creep, and 2 1/2 lbs??? do you think it takes much to get it to fire?...no not at all....So, I would expect that if someone has problems with a 700 trigger, it's their fault, not the rifles. They just can't learn to keep the gun unloaded when it should be unloaded, and then keep their fingers out of the trigger guard.....
Now, that said. Crisp, and no creep, and 2 1/2 lbs??? do you think it takes much to get it to fire?...no not at all....So, I would expect that if someone has problems with a 700 trigger, it's their fault, not the rifles. They just can't learn to keep the gun unloaded when it should be unloaded, and then keep their fingers out of the trigger guard.....
bacardisteve
New member
The last gun show i was at i inspected 3 diffrent rem700 from the same vendor. He allowed me to drop test them by placing them on safe and beating the butt on the floor. One of them failed and he immediatley took it off display. This was a used rifle but looked almost unfired so i guess it could have been tamperd with.I truly belive since remington was bought out the product has declined.
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Sweet Shooter
New member
@bacardisteve I believe these cases go back to the seventies or even the sixties. They just get raked over and over. It has nothing to do with a buyout or quality control. You can't turn this issue into quality control just because you found a gun that would fire when dropped...
-SS-
-SS-
bacardisteve
New member
I didnt realize the problem went back that far. Said gun was a 700sps so it couldnt have been but a few years old.
oldandslow
New member
KBP, 10/17/11
This supposed issue has been out for a long while and rehashed over and over in most of the firearms forums. First, of course, never believe anything you see on TV. Second, do some research on a number of forums and then make an informed decision as to whether or not this is a real issue or one manufactured for TV and lawsuits. I know that my 43 year old Rem. 700 in .270 Winchester has never had any issues in over seven hundred rounds of being dragged, dropped and water soaked over and over. As with all weapons you must practice safe handling.
best wishes- oldandslow
This supposed issue has been out for a long while and rehashed over and over in most of the firearms forums. First, of course, never believe anything you see on TV. Second, do some research on a number of forums and then make an informed decision as to whether or not this is a real issue or one manufactured for TV and lawsuits. I know that my 43 year old Rem. 700 in .270 Winchester has never had any issues in over seven hundred rounds of being dragged, dropped and water soaked over and over. As with all weapons you must practice safe handling.
best wishes- oldandslow
The woman pointed her gun down toward the ground in the direction of a stock trailer. The gun fired when the safety was moved to the fire position without touching the trigger. ( A trait that has been know to happen with Remingtons since the 60's). The bullet hit the trailer, deflected and changed directions at least once inside the trailer before exiting and striking her son, who she thought was behind her. Once the bullet hit a metal stock trailer there is no way to predict where it will go. It could have just as easily come straight back striking her or the son if he had been behind her.
This is no hoax, no TV show with an agenda. The Remington problem is REAL. I've seen it happen and own a gun that has done it. More than once. The engineer who designed the gun discovered that it was possible shortly after the gun went into production and proposed a design change, but since it would have cost Remington $.05 more per gun they decided a nickle was worth more than a safe gun.
That said it is very, very rare. By Remingtons own estimates less than 1% of all 700's made have the potential to do it. Most of those never will and most of the time when it happens no one will be injured. That is what Remingotn is counting on. The bean counters have figured it is cheaper to pay off in a few lawsuits than correct the problem.
Remington now has no choice but to lie and coverup the problem. To recall and fix all 7,000,000 rifles in use @ around $100 each would bankrupt the company. Since changing the safety in the 1980's to allow the gun to be unloaded while the safety is still in the "SAFE" position the problem has all but gone away, but it is still possible. Remingtons redesigned trigger that came out in 2007 has finally cured the problem.
I've seen their response and read the transcript. It is a very carefully worded lawer prepared script that does not tell the truth, without outright lying.
This is no hoax, no TV show with an agenda. The Remington problem is REAL. I've seen it happen and own a gun that has done it. More than once. The engineer who designed the gun discovered that it was possible shortly after the gun went into production and proposed a design change, but since it would have cost Remington $.05 more per gun they decided a nickle was worth more than a safe gun.
That said it is very, very rare. By Remingtons own estimates less than 1% of all 700's made have the potential to do it. Most of those never will and most of the time when it happens no one will be injured. That is what Remingotn is counting on. The bean counters have figured it is cheaper to pay off in a few lawsuits than correct the problem.
Remington now has no choice but to lie and coverup the problem. To recall and fix all 7,000,000 rifles in use @ around $100 each would bankrupt the company. Since changing the safety in the 1980's to allow the gun to be unloaded while the safety is still in the "SAFE" position the problem has all but gone away, but it is still possible. Remingtons redesigned trigger that came out in 2007 has finally cured the problem.
I've seen their response and read the transcript. It is a very carefully worded lawer prepared script that does not tell the truth, without outright lying.
Although unsafe gun handling was done, it does not change the fact that the trigger was defective. I have watched the videos and in my mind there is no doubt that the triggers were defective. Even the designer said as much if I remember correctly.
Unsafe gun handling will cause deaths, but it does not excuse defective triggers.
Jerry
Unsafe gun handling will cause deaths, but it does not excuse defective triggers.
Jerry
She didn't know that her son was behind the trailer. If you watch it again I believe the father said that their son was at the end of the trailer in full sight (sitting on a horse i think) when they started to put their gear away. Apparently he climbed down and walked behind the trailer before anyone noticed.
But, having said that...I know we like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I do think that she accidentally pulled the trigger and is either in complete denial, or just didn't realize that she did.
I have to side with Remington on this issue. When that CNBC report first aired, a whole bunch of us were talking about it at the gun shop and at the gun club. A few of these guys are professional gunsmiths by trade and all said the same thing. The only Remington 700s they've ever seen that could fire without pulling the trigger, were rifles in which the trigger had been tampered with.
Let’s take a look at some of the objections:
"It’s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."
Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn’t necessarily mean that the core issue isn’t true.
"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."
No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don’t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.
So let's take a look at what it is:
Here's the Remington 700 trigger cocked:
The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.
When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:
For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.
See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.
With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:
“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”
Good for you. This problem doesn’t happen very often, simply because it’s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it’s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven’t had a problem, it’s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.
Yet.
"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."
This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.
"Nobody would have been hurt if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."
True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.
"It’s an anti-gun conspiracy / CNBC is biased."
Yes, CNBC is biased, and their story contains slanted perspectives and misleading information. What did you expect? However, just because the presentation is biased doesn’t necessarily mean that the core issue isn’t true.
"It must be caused by people fiddling with their trigger adjustments."
No doubt some of the problems are indeed due to improper adjustments. However there are lots of rifles that have adjustable triggers that don’t have anywhere near as many complaints. Something else is going on.
So let's take a look at what it is:
Here's the Remington 700 trigger cocked:
The Remington 700 trigger is a bit unusual in that it uses an extra piece, the trigger connector, to refine the trigger pull. The tiny red area is the engagement between the connector and the sear.
When the trigger is pulled, the connector goes forward and returns to this position:
For this trigger to operate safely it is essential that when the rifle is cocked the trigger connector return 100% to the proper position, pushed there by only the light weight trigger spring.
See the red area between the trigger shoe and the trigger connector when the rifle is uncocked? That's the problem area. Any tiny speck of dirt, rust, ice or other material that gets in there will prevent the connector from engaging the sear properly. This can result in the safety keeping the sear from falling instead of the trigger connector. When the safety is released, the gun fires.
With all this in mind, let's take a look at a couple more objections:
“I’ve owned a Remington 700 for forty years and fired thousands of rounds and never had a problem.”
Good for you. This problem doesn’t happen very often, simply because it’s fairly difficult for stuff to work its way into the proper area of the trigger. But this is not a question of a few defective guns; it’s a design weakness that could affect any of the millions of guns with this trigger. If you haven’t had a problem, it’s because nothing has worked its way into your trigger.
Yet.
"This only happens on dirty or neglected guns."
This is more likely to happen on a dirty or neglected gun. However, a grass seed or a bit of pine needle could make this happen on an otherwise pristine gun.
"Nobody would have been hurt if they followed The Rules of Gun Safety."
True enough. You should always treat your gun as though it could go off at any moment. That doesn't excuse making a rifle that actually does it.
I owned a Remington 700 22-250 from 1982 - 1986. It was probably manufactured in the late '70's. It was a very rugged, reliable, accurate and durable rifle. I can't say enough good things about it. The only reason I sold it was because it was too expensive to shoot and I had no real use, other than long range target shooting for it.
I've also own a Ruger Mark II pistol - if enough dirt accumulates on the trigger components, it will malfunction too - i.e. it will only fire intermittently when you depress the trigger, sometimes if fires sometimes it doesn't. All guns need to be cleaned, including their trigger mechanisms.
This report sounds "hinkey" to me.
I've also own a Ruger Mark II pistol - if enough dirt accumulates on the trigger components, it will malfunction too - i.e. it will only fire intermittently when you depress the trigger, sometimes if fires sometimes it doesn't. All guns need to be cleaned, including their trigger mechanisms.
This report sounds "hinkey" to me.
Clifford L. Hughes
New member
KBP:
I sold guns for over twenty years and I sold a lot of Remington 700s. I'm not aware of faulty triggers. However, a customer brought in two with his own trigger jobs that were so bad that slamming the bolt closed or bouncing the recoil pad on the floor would release the striker. We refused to take them on trade.
Semper Fi
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
I sold guns for over twenty years and I sold a lot of Remington 700s. I'm not aware of faulty triggers. However, a customer brought in two with his own trigger jobs that were so bad that slamming the bolt closed or bouncing the recoil pad on the floor would release the striker. We refused to take them on trade.
Semper Fi
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
I dont own a 700 that doesnt have an aftermarket trigger (IMHO first thing to change on a 700). Just a heads up to Winchester Model 70 owners that ajusting the trigger under 2lbs can also make them fire unexpectedly (pushing the safety from safe to fire and closing the bolt).
Some facts gentlemen. First CNBC is not exactly the last bastion of editorial truth, [ that chain smoking expert, for instance, never worked at the plant where 700's are made]second that Walker interview was largly edited, and third with all that history does'nt it seem odd that there's never been a plaintifs attourney able to have that replicated in a courtroom?
ligonierbill
New member
Personal experience: My father bought an older used 700 BDL in 7 mm Mag some years ago for an elk hunt. A few years later he gave it to me, and I used it successfully, but very carefully! Because...approaching my first downed elk, I released the safety to unload. Bang! Now I wrote it off to heavy gloves (and of course the muzzle was in a safe direction), until I told the story to a guy who finished it for me. Hmmm. I became especially aware of muzzle direction, but it didn't happen again. Remington had a recall that replaced the safety to eliminate the need to release it prior to opening the bolt, which I had done at a Remington authorized gunsmith. However, on this rifle at least, if you pull the trigger with the safety on, as you might if you forgot to release it or brushed it with a glove or just about anything, the next time you release the safety it is likely to fire. I have tried this with an empty chamber. This gun is well cared for, but it is possible that the original owner fooled with the trigger. My plan is to get it to a gunsmith to replace the trigger (would not sell this to an unsuspecting shooter!). Now, I recently purchased a newer 700 VS 22-250. Before I bought it, I tried the trigger. It does not have the problem that BDL has. The Remington 700 is a good rifle, and they are not all defective, but some certainly are. If you have one or are looking at one, try the trigger against the safety, then release the safety. It should never drop the firing pin! If it does, look elsewhere, or get it to a good smith.