Remington 700 ADL vs Howa 1500

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ircarr

Inactive
Hi I am right now in between the Remington 700 ADL and a Howa 1500 lighting.
I can get the Remington 700 for about $360.00 with the Remington scope on it or I can get a Howa 1500 lighting without a scope for about $400.00.
I have held the Remington and have even shot it and although it is not as smooth as a Tikka's bolt I like how the action operates. I haven't held the howa but I have held a Weatherby Vangard with a fluted bolt and I know the howa's bolt isn't fluted but does it feal as smooth? I have heard great things about the howa and I don't know if the action feals smoother than the Remington 700 ADL. I also like the tikka but it is out of my price range. If y'all have any other suggestions on rifles that have a smooth action close or right under the tikka's but about $150-$200 cheaper that would be appreciated. BTW I am probably going to get a .308 and I have a price range of $400.00 without a scope.
Thanks
 
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I've never handled a Howa but have heard they are very nice, I do however have a Rem 700, early 80's manufacture and it is a spectacular gun. The non-lawyer proof trigger is so crisp and light with no discernible movement whatsoever.
I am currently on a 'Buy American' thing whenever possible so, I say get the Remington.
 
Well I am sorry to step on another Jar-Head's toes (I am one also) but as a full time gunsmith with over 40 years of experience, I would say Howa hands down.
Sorry 77-81, but I have had to repair more M700s than all other bolt actions combined in my time as a gunsmith.
The 3 major complaints are:
#1 Breaking extractors.
#2 bolt handles coming off and needing to be re-soldered.
#3 trigger parts breaking and triggers coming Apart
 
Neither would be my 1st choice. I've owned a 700 since the mid 1970's and they CAN be a good rifle, they do tend to be above average accuracy wise. They also have some weak points as pointed out earlier. I wouldn't own ANY Remington bolt rifle with the factory trigger. The 1946-2006 guns have a flawed design that could allow them to discharge with no trigger pull. My rifle did it several times before I replaced the trigger. The 2007-present triggers are safe enough, but not very good.

Most people will never have a problem, but the issues are real. You pay your money and take your chances. Those who have never had an issue tend to love them.

The Howa is the better built rifle. No major design flaws and most are acceptably accurate. But they are very heavy, not what I'd want in a 308. I think they are better suited for a heavy kicking magnum rifle where the extra weight helps tame recoil.
 
I prefer the 700 for the simple reason that getting the barrel off a Howa is a royal pain in the rear.
Wyosmith, one reason you have had to work on so many 700's is the fact that there are so many of them are out there.;) Conservatively, I would bet I have seen 500 Reminton 700's to every 1 Howa I have seen. (not counting Weatherby Vangard)
 
Taking the barrel off the action of the Howa almost always involves putting the barreled action in the lathe and turning a relief cut in front of the action face.
 
"Does the howa have a smoother bolt?"

I think you're obsessing about a less than critical issue.
I'm very satisfied with the current and past production HOWA rifles I have with the exception of the hitchy trigger on the older ones. A decent trigger and accurate barrel are far more important than the "smoothness of the bolt" but that's just my opinion.

"The 1946-2006 guns have a flawed design that could allow them to discharge with no trigger pull. My rifle did it several times before I replaced the trigger."

The only Rem 700 trigger problems I've seen were related to improper adjustment or operator error. My experience is limited to 25 to 30 rifles owned personally or handled through my shop.
In fact, I've seen an equal number of Savages with trigger malfunctions as I have Rem 700's and those were from similar causes.
 
I haven't held the howa but I have held a Weatherby Vangard with a fluted bolt and I know the howa's bolt isn't fluted but does it feal as smooth?
Click to expand...

Bolt fluting doesn't necessarily make it "smoother" or "slicker" running. It's all about tolerances and surface finish. Fluting, IMO, is largely a gimmick, same as I view barrel fluting for mostapplications.

Fluting a bolt would be helpful in an environment where sand/debris is likely to get into the action, or where it's used in sub-freezing temps. The AIAW has a fluted bolt because it's less likely to freeze up because of less surface area contact between the bolt and receiver.

My question is- I didn't see where you specified the intended use of the rifle? Hunting? Target? Range?

And most importantly- do you ever see yourself "upgrading" the rifle in terms of the stock, match-grade barrel, etc.?

Howa 1500/Wby Vanguard has gotten more aftermarket support as of late, but by a huge margin the 700 is king as far as ease of "upgrades".
 
My main use will be for hunting here in Florida and going out to the range every now and then and shoot some steel. And on the upgrading part I might put a different stock or a bipod in the future.
 
Reynold357 makes an excellent point, but I do have a counter point.
Yes there are about 5 million M700/M721/M722 Remingtons made and sold, mostly in the USA.
The Howa imported by Weatherby, Legacy, Smith and Wesson and all others probably don’t come to 1 million. So the numerical likelihood of having a Remington break and need repairs is higher.
That is all 100% true.
But let’s look at the Mausers.
In my 48 years as a gunsmith take a guess how many 93, 94 95, 96 and 98 Mausers in every variant combined I have had to repair due to a factory part breaking.
Take a guess.
Up until this January, only about 6 weeks ago, that number was exactly 0
None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. 10 less than 10.
Well in the 1st week of January I finally saw it. A man brought me in a M98 custom rifle in 25-06 that had a broken ejector spring. So the perfect record I had told people about for Mauser reliability was destroyed for me just a few weeks ago.
If we look at the Mausers made in all models from the 79 to the 98, according to both DeHass and Speer that number comes to about 60 million. Many have been repaired due to damage in war, as well as rust but if we look at those needing repair because of factory design and defective parts the percentage is so low as to be hard to calculate. I can only speak for myself as one man but as a gunsmith with 48 years of work behind me, I can say the M98 system was the best bolt action ever made for reliability.

Now let’s look at the M91 Mosin Nagant and its variants. Sources say no less than 77 million were made and some men say it is as high as 107 million.
Not as common in the USA as in other nations, but there still are a lot of them around, even here.
I have had to replace 2 broken extractors on M/N rifles. I know a smith in Reno that had to make a flat spring on one that broke in the follower arm. Those are the only three I personally know of that had need of repair from a factory part being broken. I am sure there are others around, but I only speak from my own knowledge base.
Now in my records that I can look over right here in my shop I find 47 Remington M700 I have dome major repairs on in just the last 7 years. And I make muzzleloaders for the most part. I have no store front. I do the smithing for 4 gun stores in central Wyoming, but I am not out looking for work on hunters and shooters guns. When I worked in Nevada I did work for 9 gunshops and one of them (In California) was a Remington Service Center. Replacement of broken extractors, re-solders of bolt handles and repair of triggers was common.

I have had to repair more M700s than every other bolt action from every other maker combined.

That would include Winchester, Weatherby, Savage, Browning, Howa, Ruger, Mossberg, Marlin, Steyr, Tikka <---(Often can’t be repaired because Tikka will not sell parts) Sako, Interarms, Kimber, Walther, Krako, BSA, CZ, Husqvarna, and all military surplus bolt action rifles combined.

I do not have complete records going back to 1968 but when I look at what I do have, these are the facts. Facts are just that, and facts can be misunderstood. But truth must be deduced from facts.

In this list I am speaking ONLY of parts failure due to metal fatigue, wear or design flaw. I am not speaking of damage that is not the fault of the firearm at all, but of the owner.
If I look at the guns I have had to fix because the owner did something wrong, (or failed to do things right) then I can say I have worked on M700/721/722 about as often as any other.

So I speak from a base of knowledge, not hear-say. I have my own conclusions. Others may conclude something different.
Remington's 700 is my 2nd to the last choice for my own use. Only Tikka rates lower with me, and that is because they will not stand behind their rifles at all. At least Remington has some customer service and will sell parts or replace parts. Tikka won't.
 
Well I got to go out and handle a howa and I like it allot. How is the accuracy on them? could I get 1moa or at least 1.5 moa.
 
Most of the Howas I have seen in the last 15 years or so have been very accurate. 1 MOA is not exceptional, but fairly common with loads the rifle likes.
Now remember, the most accurate rifle on earth will shoot some loads better than others, so how accurate a rifle is can only be determined after some load work.
But 1.5 MOA is probably not going to be a challenge at all.
 
The Howa-Vanguard has a solid bolt, machined from a solid billet, handle and all. Almost every other rifle that I can think of has either a fused, braised, or multi-piece bolt.

I own a Vanguard, also based on the Sako L-61, and the bolt is not as smooth as the bolt on my Cooper, MDL 22, or MKV, but much smoother than the bolt on my last MDL 700.

Sako sold the rights to the L-61, which I think was marketed as the Finnbear, to Roy Weatherby, and in sort of a roundabout way came to Howa.

IMO the L-61 design is, with the exception of the MKV the best push design of them all. The Finnbear and MDL 70's and some others that were becoming too expensive to produce to make the profits they wanted. I think that they dropped the L-61 and thought up Tikka. Like the Rem 700, the Tikka's receiver is a piece of drilled bar stock, I wonder if the bolt is hollow, and the recoil lug is a washer.

Tikka's along with Mdl 700's have reputation for accuracy, and I'm sure that they are perfectly serviceable, but I can't think of a modern bolt action rifle with a reputation for poor accuracy.

The Vanguard that I bought is at least as accurate as my MKV, 340WBY, more accurate than the MDL 700 I sold in 1978. I believe that a great deal of accurate shooting is being comfortable with the rifle. If you like the feel of a Tikka than that is what you are probably going to shoot best. Could be kind of like a self fullfilling prophecy. The Vanguards come with a factory target. Mine is about .7". A 300WBY is a cannon and not that easy to shoot, but my son can do under 1" and I can do MOA on a good day for about 9 rounds.

IMO your really can't do any better for the money than the Howa/Vanguard.
 
Yes ,if that,s the one you handled.

I would prefer a #2 barrel over the thinner #1.

Did not find it listed on Howa,s website,but found specs on bud,s guns.

Hope the W in HWR63210+ doesn,t stand for Walmart.:D:D
 
Howas are excellent rifles with their only downfall being their weight, 7.8 lbs naked. That being said howas make great magnums and will be far more reliable than any remington especially in more recent times. Howas quality is getting better while remingtons getting worse. Also weatherby just came out with some cheaper guns so if you dont like the weight of a howa you can buy a weatherby its the same rifle just a different stock.
 
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