Remington 1911 R1 - Who is right

So.......no-one knows anything and we are just shooting hypothesis here? Does that about sum it up?
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That seems about right.

May be slides and frames are bought only partly finished .Then Remington finish them in house.
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That would be my guess. That's why SA's NM Mil Specs don't have Imbel Brazil markings. Enough of the finish work is completed in the US to avoid triggering whatever import designation requires that.
 
The Remington Model 1911 R1 is manufactured with pride and precision, to the exacting standards you’ve come to expect from Remington. Right here in Ilion, New York.
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So says the Remington Website - so if you are "buy American" type of guy - you would feed off the above....
 
For the record, I have a R1 and several other Government Models of various makes and calibers. With the exception of my Gold Cups, I don't find the R1, as a shooter, to be any worst or better than the other GM's I own. It is, price wise, one of the lower end pistols I have bought. But, it's fit and finish is way better than the Norinco or the couple of Rock Islands in my small collection. I guess I'm being dense, I don't understand why everyone gets their man thong in a twist over the R1.
 
You'd have a VERY hard time finding an "american made" 1911 that doesnt use several parts vendors. Not to long ago there was a very interesting conversation at 1911forum in regard to where Dan Wesson receives the rough forgings for their frames. I'm the proud owner of a beautiful DW that is machined like a surgical instrument, but the word is that their frames are from Daewoo in korea. In the end, doesnt bother me at all when I'm making the 10 ring disappear from 25 yards away. As an aside, I have a Phillipino made "American classic 2" that cost a fraction of the DW and it will hold its own with the DW all day long!
 
You'd have a VERY hard time finding an "american made" 1911 that doesnt use several parts vendors. Not to long ago there was a very interesting conversation at 1911forum in regard to where Dan Wesson receives the rough forgings for their frames. I'm the proud owner of a beautiful DW that is machined like a surgical instrument, but the word is that their frames are from Daewoo in korea. In the end, doesnt bother me at all when I'm making the 10 ring disappear from 25 yards away. As an aside, I have a Phillipino made "American classic 2" that cost a fraction of the DW and it will hold its own with the DW all day long!
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I agree 100%. It does not matter to me where they are made as long as there is disclosure. We live in a global economy and to expect a company not to take advantage of that is unrealistic when we the consumer continually demand more for less.
 
"I don't understand why everyone gets their man thong in a twist over the R1""

We don't. The term intellectual exercise comes to mind. My favorite plinker is one of the Colt WWI Repro guns from the first batch, so I don't think I'll ever be getting an R1. But I'm still curious.

When we're not shooting or working we're here talking about gun stuff.
 
WVsig said:
I agree 100%. It does not matter to me where they are made as long as there is disclosure. We live in a global economy and to expect a company not to take advantage of that is unrealistic when we the consumer continually demand more for less.
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This. As with most things made in the USA, most of it isn't. There is a reason, it's called the bottom line.

Remington does need to clear the air though. Nothing worse then diverting answers, instead of direct ones.
 
Most of the RI parts do in fact come from US suppliers. It is my understanding that only barrels come from abroad[S Korea] and the primary reason they do is that many of them tested to a strandard of 1" @25 yards. It is also my understanding that as the platform expands [a target version is forthcoming] the intent is to bring barrel production to Ilion, NY. This is not rumor, it is not opinion.
 
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Most oif the RI parts do in fact come from US suppliers. It is my understanding that only barrels come from abroad[S Korea] and the primary reason they do is that many of them tested to a strandard of 1" @25 yards. It is also my understanding that as the platform expands [a target version is forthcoming] the intent is to bring barrel production to Ilion, NY. This is not rumor, it is not opinion.
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Proof please... or is it not opinion or rumor because you say so? :cool:
 
I find this discussion somewhat comical:

An IMBEL produced 1911A1 badged by Springfield will say that it was made in Brazil on it somewhere.

A "NM" Springfield 1911A1 badged by Springfield will only have the best rough spec raw forgings sent to the custom shop where all of the finish machine work is done in house. This gun can rightfully and lawfully be called "Made in the USA" because really, all of the value added to the final product was done here.

I have a Buck Vantage Pro that says "USA" on the left side of the blade. I know this knife was made in the USA because I have been to the Post Falls ID factory where they are produced.

On the right side of the blade is "13C26." Well dangit all but that number denotes a steel made by the Sandvik steel company at their plants in Sweden. Sandvik steel is widely noted to be a very good knife steel for its mid-range price point.

Is that Buck Knife not made in the USA for having used raw material from abroad?

Remington could not legally mark the R1 "Made in the USA" unless it meets the FTC standard that only a negligible amount of foreign parts are present in the final assembly. (The regulations for cars are different and much looser.)

So the Swedish steel in an American made Buck knife is not consequential. A rough Brazilian forging doesn't prevent the SA Custom Shop from stamping "Made in the USA" on the finished Professional Models. By that same token, a South Korean barrel in an otherwise American sourced Remington R1 is not at all fatal to calling it "American manufactured."

If, say the finished barrel, frame, & slide were all imported and only assembled here, that is possibly a case of deceptive advertising.
 
If, say the finished barrel, frame, & slide were all imported and only assembled here, that is possibly a case of deceptive advertising.
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Which is exactly what SA does will milspecs marked NM. They are doing just enough of the final finish work here IIRC 60% to call it "MADE IN THE US". So using your example is SA being deceptive? The NM marked gun was not made out of a "raw forging" it was made out of an almost finished frame, slide and barrel produced outside the US.

I really could careless where it comes from unless part of your marketing plan is to drape yourself in the US flag which both Remmington and SA do. :barf:
 
IowaJer said:
But then tonight I saw on that locked thread where a member here that works at a gun shop seems to know they're not made here.
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Like Bill Clinton's famous, "It depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" statement ... it depends on how you define "made."

VERY few of the 1911 makers who offer forged slides and frames do the actual forging. S&W, and Colt, in fact, may be the only ones. ALL the rest buy raw forgings and then do their own machining. And the overwhelming majority of all those 1911 forged slides and frames come from two companies in Korea.

When Remington says they "make" the slides and frame in their plant, what they mean is that they machine them there. I am 99.83 percent certain that Remington, like almost all the others, buys the raw forgings from Korea.

WVsig said:
We live in a global economy and to expect a company not to take advantage of that is unrealistic when we the consumer continually demand more for less.
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Exactly. I find it ironic that the same people who scream about wanting an all American-made product won't buy a Colt because they think it's over-priced, yet considering the quality and the fact that they ARE all American makes any Colt an absolute bargain.

But you can't get most people to understand that.
 
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After reading all the responses and various postings this has been really, really eye-opening to me. From the legality parts, to the global economy issues, to the marketing angle, comparisons and examples, etc.

And I admit that I lean to the "Buy America" side as much as I can, but also know that few things are "all" American. (I mean, I buy domestic branded cars & trucks, but I know they have foreign parts, etc)

So in my little mind when they went to some length to pronounce it as manufactured in Ilion, NY I just thought it was all done right there. So the discussions about what stages things are done in was real interesting and informative.

I've not gotten a reply from Remington so far, but it's only been four days so I'll keep checking back.

I'd think they could craft a standard response to this question that would address how they maybe receive in rough frames that are outsourced to their specs, and then do their thing to their own exacting tolerances, yada, yada. If nothing else but for people who bother to send a question to them. (In other words, I'm not suggesting that they change how it's marketed to the masses) But there's probably a reason they can't do that too.

Whether Remington actually responds or not, in the end I feel like I have got a better handle on what's probably happening from the responses here.

Thanks!!!

Jer
 
Remington historically has not nor IMHO will not respond to these questions. When you look at the tenor of much of threads like this, it boils down to a "lose lose" situation for them and like most folks everybody wants to buy American at a price point determined by anything other than the manufacturing realities of global economics as opposed to quality vs cost.

As far as who exactly supplies the barrels...don't know, haven't heard.

As far as proof.....please.
 
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...On the right side of the blade is "13C26." Well dangit all but that number denotes a steel made by the Sandvik steel company at their plants in Sweden. Sandvik steel is widely noted to be a very good knife steel for its mid-range price point....
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I cast knife blades for a customer from Sandvik 19C27. It is very similar to 440C (and I doubt it is any better but I guess knife aficionados think it is). I could cast his blades with the same exact chemistry as 19C27 and it would be perfectly legal. However, the customer would not be able to call it Sandvik 19C27. So instead I buy my casting alloy from from one of my suppliers in PA who is licensed by Sandvik to produce it.

Also, we produce one small exterior part for the R1, a part that could be easily made in another country. I have very little knowledge where the rest of the parts come from but if they buy the part I make here in the US I can't see why they would bother buying anything abroad.
 
Prices vary, but given Remington's pricing, why couldn't most if not all parts be made and assembled in the USA?

R1's are about $150 higher than the "lower priced" imported 1911's and about $150 cheaper than the most expensive, production 1911...Colt. And they use more cast parts(cheaper) than Colt, undoubtedly have lower production costs and they are making an initial marketing "splash".

Their enhanced model has a retail of $940. Maybe it will sell for $100 cheaper than a Kimber...don't know? Kimber is USA made and cheaper than Colt.

Colt doesn't run a foundry...they buy their forgings by the way.
 
I think that many are being swayed by the "buy American" boondoggle...

Unless something says "100 % made in America" you are buying a composite item made of a little bit of this and a little bit of that.
 
Just because it's made in America........

Doesn't mean the raw material came from America. Even if it did, the nickel, molybdenum, chrome, whatever in the steel probably didn't come from America. It's really just a matter of degrees.

The best you can really hope for is "machined in America". But then, chances are either the mill / lathe isn't American made or the cutting tools themselves.

All the Best,
D. White
 
he best you can really hope for is "machined in America". But then, chances are either the mill / lathe isn't American made or the cutting tools themselves.
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Made = Manufactured.

Buying imported metal isn't the same as buying a rough cut pistol frame.

Again - there are companies that indicate 100% made in America - Remington skirts the issue if I read here and what the website states about this 1911 in question. Accroding to what I think is the most realistic "made in America" website - Remington gets about a 95% grade....

Henry Arms gets 100%

Buck knives gets a 50% grade.

Case Knives gets 100%...etc.

The definition of Made in America at madehereinamerica.com seems to have the best definition to satisfy the purists.

My point is that you can easily mislead the buying public....

And many of the buying public are so hopped up on "buying American" - they are buying the "statement" and not the truth.
 
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