Remind me why *** Someone*** would want an unfinished 80% Glock knock off...

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AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree. NRA Lifemember here. We are on the same side, trust me. Part of your last post, although far more definitive, refined and updated, is almost identical to a presentation I gave in a High School Civics class in the early 80's, much to the ire of the liberal teacher. Now that I have responded to your implication that I haven't read the Constitution or understand the 2nd Amendment and how more gun laws won't work, can we get back on topic?

When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate and closes one more opportunity for scumbags to get guns. Will it stop them from obtaining them from other sources... of course not. But like it or not, criminals and those of bad intentions ARE currently buying / obtaining, carrying and using these guns for nefarious purposes, as the aforementioned links and ATF sources depict.

As I previously stated, ANYONE can buy a 80% ghost gun kit online, unfettered, as easily as buying a pair of socks on Amazon. If that's not an issue for some of you, yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

"The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership,"AB.

Seriously? That's BS and you know it. :D Going through a background check to buy a 80% kit is "One more impediment"??? Like we don't already do this 15 minute procedure to buy a gun through an FFL. :rolleyes:
 
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The stats exist. The reason we don't know the stats at the moment is that the media would be utterly ashamed/embarrassed to report them to you. You would immediately come to the conclusion that "ghost guns" are not a problem, and that certain people just love controlling you.

The tip-off is that they have been used by criminals "in 38 states." That means 12 states where the number of criminal uses is zero. So we can reasonably estimate that that in the majority of states, the number is one criminal use or less.

If I am generally not afraid of the existence of handguns, and their inevitable use by criminals, I am definitely not going to be afraid of "ghost guns." I am much more afraid of a federal government that feels the need to track and "regulate" every aspect of my life.
 
shurshot said:
AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree. NRA Lifemember here. We are on the same side, trust me. Part of your last post, although far more definitive, refined and updated, is almost identical to a presentation I gave in a High School Civics class in the early 80's, much to the ire of the liberal teacher. Now that I have responded to your implication that I haven't read the Constitution or understand the 2nd Amendment and how more gun laws won't work, can we get back on topic?

When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate and closes one more opportunity for scumbags to get guns. Will it stop them from obtaining them from other sources... of course not. But like it or not, criminals and those of bad intentions ARE currently buying / obtaining, carrying and using these guns for nefarious purposes, as the aforementioned links and ATF sources depict.
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To the first point, a number of your comments as I pointed out earlier are practically word for word from gun control arguments in general. Being an NRA Life Member isn’t, in my experience, really an indication of anything. I’ve met many people that consider themselves pro-gun but then go on to list exceptions that I personally find head scratching. And frankly that’s fine. It’s been my experience that the views of gun owners vary wildly when it comes to what should or shouldn’t be allowed. My point is simply when you express views that some people might read as seemingly pro gun control don’t be surprised when they react as such, regardless of your membership in any political party or gun rights organization.

To the second point, what you’re describing is exactly what selling a serialized firearm entails. But that’s not what an 80% lower is. According to the ATF themselves it is not a firearm. Again going back to points I made above, people can and have 3D printed polymer lowers. Heck people can machine a steel lower or even make it themselves from a forging. So if we start serializing anything that could be made into a firearm receiver, where do we go from there? If chunks of polymer and steel should be serialized and require background checks, then certainly the barrel and slide you might buy online should be serialized, and likely the trigger components as well as those parts are much more complicated than a receiver and thus harder for someone with nefarious intent to create at home. Should anything firearm related be serialized and require a background check through an FFL? To me when I follow through what you’re suggesting it’s hard not to consider it a pretty big expansion of current gun control measures, which I think goes to my first point.


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shurshot said:
As I previously stated, ANYONE can buy a 80% ghost gun kit online, unfettered, as easily as buying a pair of socks on Amazon. If that's not an issue for some of you, yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree.
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I can buy any number of things on Amazon, and assemble them as a "kit" to make something extremely deadly. As easily as ordering socks.

You appear to have a basic problem with reality -- that people can assemble objects in the world and end up with something that isn't safe. You'd like a world where that is impossible?

having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate
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In other words, nothing in your life is legitimate unless some guy from the government creates a process of sufficiently elaborate hoops for you to jump through.

No, thank you.
 
Rat, yes, my personal perspective is slanted against scumbags easily obtaining guns and commiting crimes, killing cops and innocent victims. Over time, it's hard not to see the bigger picture and question where our society is headed. Our individual occupations and experiences are all different too. I have seen what people intent on obtaining guns and committing evil acts have done.
You Inferring that I am a gun control advocate in disguise as a NRA member is condescending at best. We are in a virtual culture war in this country and you are attacking your own team mate due to me having a different take on how easily available this 80% kits are? As our new President says; "C'mon Man"! :D.
I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night... I'm no Michael Moore. :D
You have your opinion and I have mine. I see these 80% kits as an emerging issue, many of you don't. You have your opinion, your conciousness to deal with, not mine. I don't consider making the purchase of these kits FFL / background check required as a gun control issue, but more of doing the right thing. Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous.
Unfortunately the Gun control advocates picked up this issue first and now any attempt to discuss it is looked at in the same light as gun registration, micro stamping, magazine bans, etc., another wacky Liberal infringement on our rights. Any attempt at Socratic dialectic pertaining to the matter ends up like this one, quickly dissolved & drowned out by emotions, finger pointing and fear.
I'm off the soap box.
 
I’m not inferring or attacking anyone. I’m interpreting the arguments that are being made as best I can. I’ve met a lot of people over the years that have said they are pro gun but their definition of pro gun doesn’t match mine. It is what it is. As for my conscience, I’m just fine with it. This isn’t the first time someone on the internet has disagreed with me and it’s not enough to make me question my own beliefs.


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Generally speaking, the creation of additional "victimless crimes" isn't going to make our lives any better.
 
Those of you who have their undies in a bundle do know that you can 3D print a Glock patterned frame and drop steel inserts in for the rails, right? eBay as the rails. We're not talking one of those single use one shot pistols, either. Want a AR receive - ditto. Want an AK, there are Youtubes that will teach you how to make the receiver from sheet metal. No 80% kits needed. Don't want a DIY? Get some Bitcoin, a Tor browser, and go nuts.

The genie is out. While 80% kits make putting a firearm together from scratch a little easier, it's still not faster than getting one off the streets. Trust me on this.

I had put together a couple of the Polymer80 kits because it was fun. I got to select all the custom parts. My Glock patterned pistols cost about twice what it would have cost at the LGS. For me it wasn't about saving money or flying under the radar 'cause I got plenty of toys. It was just plain fun.
 
shurshot said:
When it comes to these 80% kit "Ghost Guns", having them numbered and sold through dealers / FFL background checks completed, in my opinion, makes the guns and process 100% legitimate ...
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The process is currently 100% legitimate. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

shurshot said:
AB, you are preaching to the choir, trust me. I'm slightly to the right of Attila The Hun, politically speaking. More gun laws are pointless, I agree.
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And yet, here you are -- arguing vehemently for yet another gun law ...

If I'm preaching to the choir, you must have a different score than the one I'm reading from.

shurshot said:
"The good guys will have one more impediment to enjoying lawful firearms ownership,"AB.

Seriously? That's BS and you know it. Going through a background check to buy a 80% kit is "One more impediment"??? Like we don't already do this 15 minute procedure to buy a gun through an FFL.
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It's not BS to me. And whether it takes 15 minutes or involves a mandatory x-day wait, an impediment is still an impediment. And you didn't address the issue of the added cost of transfer fees.
 
TunnelRat said:
To the first point, a number of your comments as I pointed out earlier are practically word for word from gun control arguments in general. Being an NRA Life Member isn’t, in my experience, really an indication of anything.
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But it is an indication of something. It's a demonstration of one of the common logical fallacies: the appeal to authority. "I'm an NRA Life Member, so you have to pay attention to me."
 
wild cat mccane said:
When talking about CA as if 3 in 10 Americans isn’t from CA....
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More like 1 in 10.

The U.S. population is 330,561,121. The population of California is 39,937,500. That's 12.08%, not 30%.
 
Huh...I check in to Firing Line for the first time in a while, and am treated to a members fevered anti-gun tirade.
 
shurshot said:
I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night... I'm no Michael Moore.
You have your opinion and I have mine. I see these 80% kits as an emerging issue, many of you don't. You have your opinion, your conciousness to deal with, not mine. I don't consider making the purchase of these kits FFL / background check required as a gun control issue, but more of doing the right thing. Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous.
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Since you conceded a few posts up that you agree to disagree, why are you still pushing your argument when it should be obvious that nobody here agrees with you?

The weakness of your argument should be obvious by your repeated "appeals to authority." I cited one above. This portion of your subsequent post contains not one but two logical fallacies:

"I just had 300 rounds of 10mm delivered last night..." Another appeal to authority.

"Certainly not a further infringement on our rights as some of you have suggested, which is ridiculous." Appeal to ridicule (reductio ad absurdum)
 
TXAZ said:
A key reason I prefer to pay the price for high quality firearms from quality vendors. And as the OP, a key stimulus for the question.
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While I don’t disagree, I’ve sent a number of firearms back to the manufacturer for issues. I’ve still bought from those same manufacturers later. Is one example of a firearm failing then condemnation on all aftermarket parts? Idk. Confirmation bias is always hard to fight, myself included.


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I have some glass bottles, some rags, and a can of gasoline.
Which one gets the serial number, and how long does "approval to buy" take?
I also have a complete knifemaking shop. Does the blank steel that I buy need to be serialized, and do I need to get a knifemaker's license?
Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Ok, pure pragmatism follows. It has nothing to do with how things should be, only how they are.

80% receivers are perceived by many to be a loophole. I'm not saying they are because they aren't, but perception is a big deal.

I think it's clear that sooner or later--probably sooner now, given current events--something will be attempted to deal with the perceived loophole and when it does, the general public will probably go along with it.

The bad thing is that if/when the line is moved, it's hard to see where it would end up. Will they move it to 70% receivers? 60%? Will they just make homemade guns illegal entirely? Maybe they won't mess with 80% receivers or home manufacture at all, maybe they will just restrict the sale of other gun parts like slides, barrels, magazines, revolver cylinders, etc. to place the manufacture of working guns from 80% receivers beyond the skill of most people. I just don't know.

What I do know is that when people press the limits of a law to the point that many perceive that they are going beyond the intent of the law, the limits can be moved inward to eliminate the perceived problem. We've seen a couple of examples in recent history that pertain to firearms. It's rarely a happy thing for people who are concerned about freedom.
 
“What do I care if they outlaw bump stocks. It’s a silly, superfluous, endeavor which no serious and responsible gun owner would spend money for,” said the proud FUDD NRA lifer. Please:rolleyes:
 
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