'Reloading' For Shooting Vs. 'Re-Manufactured' Cases & Ammo

JeepHammer, a member had a picture of a winch that had been installed of a 6X6, I was thinking it was you. I have one I am going to sell. do you know anyone that is interested.

And one day a truck rolled off of a hill in a residential neighborhood; the 18 wheel type truck hit a parked car and a house. It seemed they were blaming everybody and everything. I did not want to get involved but did talk to the driver. I started with "Now tell me etc.". I told him to start the story and I would finish it. For them it was not easy to consider bad habits had anything to do with the accident.

F. Guffey
 
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I get it Mr. Guffy,
I have a REALLY difficult time with our new hires, I simply can not drill into their heads how & why we use the equipment we do to ensure QC...
Its like it takes 2 years working with the stuff every day, all day long before it sinks in, and I can't do much with them until they catch on... Some never do...

There is a blueprint/drawing for a reason, there are jigs for a reason, and there is $250,000 worth of measuring & QC stuff for a reason,
"About THAT MUCH" don't cut it, we are design/QC, it has to be 'RIGHT'...
(Blank Stare...)

If its an old PTO driven military winch, wouldn't be interested...
 
If its an old PTO driven military winch, wouldn't be interested...
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I also have a shuffle horn, it looks a little like a creature from Mars. The PTO is not a problem because it is operated with poles while walking around it. Most people are not interested because they have nothing to attach it to. It is about that time I try to sell them a ship type anchor. I have a 310 with a short piece of chain. I hope you did not mind me asking.

The winch for the 6X6 is rated at 10,000 pounds.

F. Guffey
 
Keep it up, guys.

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I don't know if this has been mentioned, my eyes kind of glazed over after a while.

SAAMI as was said is simply voluntary set of standards that most companies follow to standardize their products.

If you buy a set of dies, it should match pretty much every other set, and after using those dies, you should be within a few thousandths of factory brass dimensions, and those brass cases can be then loaded to proper saami dimensions, then fired without any issues in any chamber that is bored out to the SAAMI specs, as long as the ammo is not in some way off in dimensions because of longer bullet shanks, unusual loading practices, etc. Full length resizing is, in according to the principles of the standards written up by the group, going to return the brass to factory specs and after that it's up to you.

To keep things simple, buy standard commercial brass, reload with standard commercial bullets, and load them to standard depths. It will turn your ammunition into what could be called "remanufactured." it was returned to correct specifications.
 
You KNOW for a fact that seating at 0.010" off your lands gives you better performance...
Now, my point is and has been, without gauging the chamber you wouldn't have known you are 0.010" off the lands.
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I do Know now but that's after I tried everything else to see what that particular barrel liked.

You don't really need gauges or even measuring tools, although they can make it easier.

A sharpie and witnesses marks caused by the rifling will tell you when your at "zero" and most dies are 7/8-14tpi.

So you can figure them out mathematically.
1/8th turn-.0089"
1/4 turn-.0178"
1/2 turn-.0357"
1 full turn .0714"

Where the tools become much more helpful is to nail down the finished product that "works" so you can reproduce it down the road vs working everything back up.
 
'Briandg',
I pretty much agree, to a point...
If you can bend it back to fit one paticular firearm, you are off to the races with minimal fuss & equipment.

It's when you have a problem or questions about doing 'More' than just bending it back enough to fit in one particular chamber...
That's when you need to start getting an advanced education and some gauges to figure out where you are, and where you need to go.

Mr. Morris,
I'm puzzled now, you origionally said 0.010", no tolerance give/take,
Now are you saying that it's 'About' 0.010", more or less?

Not that it works any better or worse for you, just clairifying.

I guess I'm what they call 'Old School',
So I can reproduce a working load, I note EVERYTHING in a load book,
To do that, I have to use a 'Standard' starting point,
And be able to gauge changes from that common standard,
That requires some basic, but precision measuring tools.

My 'Standard' is deviation from SAAMI.
Its the one basic standard that everyone can work from since it's in most of the better loading books.

Arguing to use a different 'Standard' than SAAMI doesn't make sense, simply because most of us have load books with the SAAMI specs in it,
And its the same 'Standard' the firearms manufacturers & ammunition manufacturers use as a base line.
Apples to apples kind of thing.

The hardest thing I had to learn was restoring to SAAMI specs,
Since a lot of the shaping dies weren't SAAMI back then,
And no common die I've ever seen resizes the bottom of the case.

Between the funnel shaped bottom in the die, and the shell holder covering bottom web and up, you simply can't get that brass restored to SAAMI...

SO! The learning curve gets steep FAST!
Case roller to get the bottom of that case sized back to SAAMI, comparable to brand new brass.
A case roller also restores minor imperfections in the extraction groove/rim.

Most cases get SHORTER when fired (which makes case trimmers funny for most die stamped resized brass),
Rolling the case, then sizing gets the case back to SAAMI/Factory New cases.

Just learning case spring back (memory) and how to control it was a steel learning curve...

When I started producing brass from scratch, another steel learning curve in heat treating, annealing, not just the pressure required to form brass, but the application of that pressure!
My first attempts were complete disasters, but when I started with the .22LR production, I pretty much had everything worked out.
That's why opted for a mechanical scroll press rather than hydraulics, easier to control.

The entire time I was looking for a SAAMI 'Perfect' case, and got very close,
As close as the better quality .22LR brass/rounds were.
I know why the big factory stuff has the +/- tolerance it does,
Its virtually impossible to remove any more variance...

Right now, the .458 SOCOM brass production is very close to happening.
There is only a very few brass a guy can make on small scale and still make a reasonable profit.
This will be my first attempt at production levels of brass, and to be quite frank, SOCOM brass is easier to produce than bottle neck cases.
This might allow me to go after bottle neck cases next,
Or it might be a one time thing.

I've got the heat treating/annealing down, I can match Rockwell numbers precisely, and the first run reloads well, no problems with case splitting like the 'China' manufacture does...
Right now, cutting the extraction groove really quickly is my big hold up.
I just don't have CNC/robot to move cases to/from cutting tools fast enough yet.
 
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There is always a tolerance with anything assembled from components that also have tolerances. They can also stack for or against you as well. Why some sort rounds after manufacture, no matter what process was used.

If we could make everything identical we wouldn't have to average group sizes or velocities for that matter.

Even if you sort a group of cases and projectiles to the tenth of a grain (there is still a tolerance to the hundredth) and powder charges to the kernel and shoot them in a tunnel from the same firearm, you still won't get identical results.

Do the differences matter? Well, that is why we test.

That said there are a bunch of rifles and many more people that won't be able to tell, on target, charge weights that vary .02 grains (or more) or even projectile run out by .005".

I have also seen projectiles that had even more runout, then chamber them and eject without firing and they have less runout that they did out of the press. That adds even more variables to sort through.

There are many other variables, some even out of our control, we just try to minimize variation, going after accuracy.

In the end the "what works for you" part is really the end of the line for the individual. No reason to waste time if your happy.

This is why, if your shooting a pistol at 15 yards, what matters to you will be a lot different than a precision rifle shooter shooting at 1500 yards.
 
JeepHammer:
I'm only a member of three reloading forums, one of which I've never posted on because of the way they act.
I also don't have several different user names on the forums, or several user accounts on the same forum...

The only reason I can think of for having a different user name is to conceal what Im doing,
The only reason to have several accounts on the same forum is to use an alter-ego to back up/second opinion your own first post to create the illusion of support for some idiotic idea or comment.

So go ahead and continue with a personal attack,

And continue to deflect/refute doing things in an accepted, safe manner,
Preventing a discussion on said same accepted, accredited practices, procedures & equipment to accomplish a repeatable desired result...

That's exactly why I asked about it being tolerated in the first place.
You are proving my point...

I stand by using proper measuring equipment,
Using common, accepted standards as a base line,
Giving proper information to less experenced folks so they don't unknowingly create a dangerous situation,
And sharing information, ideas, ect. so the knowledgable can expand the knowledge base.
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There's been no "attack".
I simply stated some facts and showed some evidence.

You're still insisting your way is the only "correct" way, but you're still incorrect. There are many ways to reach the same end results.

Like I said, I've seen all this before on different sites, and none of it is new.
It's just you being you.

When you're not a reloading/firearms expert, you moonlight as an "automotive engineer" ;)

Pretty busy for a "trucker"
 
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Jmorris:
You don't really need gauges or even measuring tools, although they can make it easier.
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Exactly.

Your gun is the only "gauge" that's needed when working up loads and fitting brass.

Returning everything to SAMMI specs is counterproductive unless you want to use the rounds in multiple firearms.
 
You KNOW for a fact that seating at 0.010" off your lands gives you better performance...
Now, my point is and has been, without gauging the chamber you wouldn't have known you are 0.010" off the lands.
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That depends, some talk it to death and then there are others :rolleyes: that just do it. There is one that is the fan of the running start, he want the bullet to have 'that jump'. He does not tell those long and boring stories about .005" or .010 off the lands and to him there is nothing entertaining about sticking the bullet into the lands. He wants his bullets past the lands before the bullet realizes they are there.

I am the fan of transfers and standards, and then there is verifying.

F. Guffey
 
Its 'Bending' metal, there will be tolerances,
When you have spent time polishing dies with newspaper to get them 'Just Right', its a different ball game entirely.
This is completely different world than the cut-bend-weld I'm used to.

Its real good of my boss to pay for the inspection equipment!
I haven't talked him into moving all his stuff out so I can move my stuff in and use the shop full time! ;)

'Snyper',
A machinest is a machinest, building things, not talking about things that have already been built...
Engineering comes with the territory.
You can't build what you don't understand...
When you conceive, design, build, test & refine your work,
You have to find race tracks...
Yes, I drag race cars to and from race tracks, that makes me a 'Trucker', hauling racing fuel makes me a 'Hazardous Material Hauler'... Along with the on site 'Track Engineer'.
Another skill set I had to master to do the job, and a crap load more rules & restrictions & regulations I have to comply with.

I still don't see your point, while you continue to prove mine...
 
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Mr. Guffy,
I see what you mean, VERY difficult to teach the concept of 'Zero'...
A nothing that is everything doesn't seem to be easy to grasp...
 
I guess I will jump in. You are correct. Some people are unteachable. Are you not the poster that suggested that an oversized neck area in a chamber is "An easy fix" by moving the barrel back? Now you wonder why a sizing die does not touch the head of a case? Talk about the pilot that never got off the ground. Have you ever reloaded ammunition? Typical SAAMI spec for case body diameters is .008. That is a LOT. You can pick up factory ammo, mic the head, and get all kinds of readings between the different manufacturers.
 
I guess I will jump in. You are correct. Some people are unteachable. Are you not the poster that suggested that an oversized neck area in a chamber is "An easy fix" by moving the barrel back?
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"Are you not?" I am not, I am the one that got the call from the builder of bench rest type rifles. He called about information on chambers, seems an Internet reloader purchased one of his rifles and was complaining loose necks. I ask him if the reloader/shooter was complaining about accuracy.

The builder of these very fine rifles said there was nothing suspect about the accuracy so I offered to correct the problem with loose necks. It was about this time I said I had "An easy fix".

When it comes to cases there is no shortage here or there so I took my forming dies. I am the one that uses a case lube with 'no-name', the builder is one of those that will not use anything in the way of lube but Imperial and or Dillon in a can or bottle. When I form cases for him in his shop I sometimes struggle because I have a tuff time making Imperial and Dillon lube look good.

Anyhow, I formed 400 Lake City Match 30/06 cases to 308W. By forming the cases I reduce the clearance between the case neck and chamber neck by .007". And that made everyone happy, and then there was no one that understood what difference the .007" made.

The proud owner of the very accurate rifle did not see an improvement in accuracy. The builder has close to 5.000 30/06 LC Nation Match cases. There is nothing like cases with case heads that match.

F. Guffey

I am the one that suggested reloaders purchase R. Lee's book on modern reloading, I am also the one that suggest the reloader read the book by R. Lee after purchasing it.
 
I do move barrels back, then rechamber, only if the rifling is still viable.
Rehabilitates mostly off center chambers and way too long/blown out shoulder or throat areas.
Can't imagine moving the barrel back far enough to re-cut the neck, since the neck is a straight bore, the entire thing would have to be removed to install a smaller bore...

Moving back 0.020" to 0.030" to clean up free bore, erosion of throat, ect is one thing, moving back 1/2" to 3/4" is something else entirely...

I can't tell what you are talking about in particular,
But I have recommended a few times for guys to hone out the neck of a SIZING die that is way to small to begin with.
Some die WAY over work the brass, compressing it way too much,
Then expanding it out to accept a bullet.
The over compression isn't required, the die neck doesn't need to crush that brass excessively, overworking the brass and hardening it...

When cracks result with just one or two reloadings, it's usually a neck that is being over compressed, so I suggest MEASURING how much expansion you have when firing,
Then pulling the expanding ball, size that brass to see how much compression you are getting...
Honing the die out a little helps stop some of the working of the brass...

Honing the die is for ONE firearm that has a 'Generous' neck in the chamber,
Saves you from Re-Barrling the rifle since taking 3/4" out of the chamber area isn't such a good idea... To make it work better with common dies...
 
Mr. Guffy,
I saw a post recently and didn't even suggest forming brass with thicker neck walls.
Didn't need the heartache that was bound to happen.
 
Maybe you should take the time to read some of the replies to your rants. You most certainly did say it was an "Easy fix" to move a barrel back in the "IT WORKS FOR ME" thread. What thread pitch allows a complete turn to move ".020-.030"? Hone out the neck of a die? Where do you get this crap? I have a factory RCBS 7.62x39 die set. It came with a .308 expander ball and a .311 expander ball. Think I will have to ream the die out to use the .311 ball? I made an 8MMx54R chamber and used a factory RCBS 7.62x54R die with an 8MM expander ball to form the brass. I have mixed and matched dies to make wildcats more than once. Maybe there are die sets out there that squeeze the neck area like an orange, but RCBS and LEE don't.
 
'works for me' I could give a crap less,
Since you weren't paying attention, its for PROBLEMS...
I don't guess, I actually find the problem and fix it.
I can't help if that offends you, that's one problem I can't fix.
 
The only problem on this forum is people handing out bad advice to new shooters and reloaders. Explain to me just how you hone the neck on a die. I will usually try something new just to check, but there is nothing there. I got into reloading late, but had a good background in guns. I could pretty soon tell when someone was blowing smoke at me. People just starting out in shooting and reloading don't need the B/S to confuse them.
 
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