Reloading Defensive Ammunition?

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Shawn Dodson said:
There are others who believe differently...

But isn't this the essence of a courtroom trial? I bring in an 'expert,' you tear him apart. The best way is to challenge credentials. The process of establishing credentials is called "voir dire." I watched it used on a doctor in court. It was a trainwreck.

I don't have any credentials. Only experience. Do you know what your attorney would do to me on the stand to save your bacon?

"Don't hate da playa, hate da game."
 
Modern thinking.

I when I was younger, 25 years ago, there was a notion that reloads weren't near as good as factory ammo. They may have been right, then. Now I would trust reloads as much if not more then factory ammo. Times have changed. Reloading info and techniques have greatly improved. Mass production and cost saving modification haven't improved factory ammo.

I have always wondered how a LEO could tell if the loads used in a shooting were or weren't factory loads. If I shoot a box of Remingtons and reload them I sure forensics (FBI) could tell they where reloads. But why would they examine them. Unless I use an extremely hot load that plows through two houses and hits someone on the other side.
 
Here's a scenario:

You have to use your firearm in SD, and according to the law you were justified.

But you get charged because someone says that the perp was 20 feet away cleaning his fingernails, and you claim the perp was closer to 10 feet and coming at you with a knife.

Ok, so I really don't know what differences are applicable in each state, but you get the general idea. A conflicting witness results in you being charged.

Now lets assume that the investigation boils down to testing powder marks on the perp's body to determine how far the perp was from you when you shot him.

The investigators can test factory ammo and come up with a realistic idea of how far the perp was. Think they'll believe you about how much and what kind of powder you had in that load? Your attorney will, but the prosecutor won't, and he can experiment to find a load that makes you look guilty.

Now, is the jury going to believe you on how much and what kind of powder you had in that load? Or are they going to believe the prosecutor and his seemingly unbiased witness?

If you used factory loads, they can test the lot of ammo used and it's the end of the story.

Lots of things can happen in court, and the one in the right doesn't always win. Make your choice, and make your argument if it happens, but be aware of the possibility and consequences of losing before you make your choice.

I hunt with handloads, and I shoot handloads almost exclusively in every centerfire firearm I own, but I try to keep factory ammo in my carry gun most of the time. If I happened to be carrying handloads in my firearm, and needed to use it, then I would do it and hope for the best.

But I'd rather have factory loads if I'm ever in a SD shooting.

Daryl
 
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I have always wondered how a LEO could tell if the loads used in a shooting were or weren't factory loads. If I shoot a box of Remingtons and reload them I sure forensics (FBI) could tell they where reloads. But why would they examine them.

After examining your loading bench and load data, perhaps? But your question remains valid even then.

I think it's more likely that you would tell them.

If the evidence and testimony are sufficiently clear and consistent and support the story of a self-defense claim, no one will care.

But consider a close-range shooting with contradictory evidence and testimony. You testify that the shooting occurred at X feet. The person you shot and someone who was with him says the distance was 3X feet. The state investigator testifies that there was little or no gunshot residue on the person, and the state's expert witness testifies that factory loads of the type apparently used would leave GSR on the target at X feet but little or none at 3X feet. Test data that you cannot use as evidence for reasons that have been discussed at length prove that the hand loads that you used would not have left material amounts of GSR on the target at X feet.

What's at stake? Possibly two things. The first is your credibility; if you are perceived to be lying about the distance, how believable is the rest of your story? The second may impinge on whether a reasonable person would have believed that he was in imminent danger; at X feet, maybe yes, but at 3X feet maybe not--the old A, O, J determination.

With the state's evidence and expert witnesses indicating a distance of 3X feet, you could be in a world of hurt without a way of countering that evidence and testimony.

If an armed man with whom you have had no prior dealings breaks through your door at night and you use deadly force, your case should be very solid almost anywhere.

If you are accosted by someone elsewhere and have to shoot, and there are credible witnesses who saw what happened and are willing to come forward, good for you.

What I worry about is the incident that unfolds fast and you shoot, the person turns out not to have been armed, there are no credible witnesses who saw anything other than you standing with a gun in your hand and someone else on the ground, and it boils down to a matter of your word against that of the two or three persons whom you believed to constitute a serious and immediate threat. Any evidence that would support your side of the story could prove crucial.

Looks as if Daryl beat me to it.
 
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"I carry factory ammo, but I have always wondered...

If you used the correct brass and a bullet that is commonly used in SD ammo (for example, Speer Glod Dot), how would that rabid DA know that it wasn't factory ammo?

Are they going to disassembe some of your unfired rounds, analyze the powder and determine taht you handloaded them?

Are they going to pull the bullet and look for your fingerprint on the base of the bullet?

Are they going to pull the primer and determine who manufactured it? (e.g., if I use Wolf primers, are they going to find out and say, "Yep, looks like a Wool-uff primer to me, and Speer doesn't use those!")

Are the cops going to search your house, see your Dillon and say "Cha-Ching!!"?

I could see if you used LSWC bullets or something obvious, but what am I missing here? FWIW, I don't watch CSI, and I didn't watch Perry Mason when I was a kid either"


They simply will go to your home and find your equipment. ps I have been finding small quanities of personal defense ammo around my area lately.
 
nefprotector said:
...If you used the correct brass and a bullet that is commonly used in SD ammo (for example, Speer Glod Dot), how would that rabid DA know that it wasn't factory ammo? ...
Do you really want to bet that the prosecutor and his minions won't be able to figure it out?

Your home will be searched. Your reloading set up and components will be found and examined. The rounds remaining in the gun, as well as any spent case from the shooting, will be examined by a Firearms and Tool Mark Examiner. And so on. I think they will figure it out you were using handloads.
 
The ONE (and apparently the ONLY ONE) case where handloads came up in court was where the defendant claimed that his wife had used his extremely light handloads to commit suicide and that the load was so light that there was no gunshot residue. His lawyer claimed he was innocent (big surprise there.)

I don't think most handloaders would load self defense ammo at extremely light loads. I load mine at near max.

If we start worrying about what kind of powder residue they might find, I think we also need to worry about the lawyers complaining that I have ammo marketed "for law enforcement only" or claiming that my use of a .45 was meant to kill and I should have used a .22 or .25 for self defense (or just used a rock.)

I'm in the camp of using whatever one believes is most reliable. Right now, Federal HST is causing premature slide lock on my gun so I don't consider it reliable whereas my handloads have been okay. I do have a new slide stop to test, but the weather hasn't been very cooperative for testing.

Ken
 
Shawn Dodson said:
So ANYBODY who handloads is suspect?
Shawn, you have to know that it's more complex than that. And the various issues have been fully discussed in the threads I've linked to.

There are basically two potential problems with using handloads for self defense, if there is any dispute about whether a shooting was justified:

[1] The potential negative effect on a jury has been discussed. For some comments by a psychologist, see --

>> http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3864817&postcount=87
Glenn E. Meyer said:
...As both the legal experts and psychological experts on jury issues have discussed sometimes endlessly - if the situation is ambiguous, factors of appearance can influence the jury. Those influences don't make it into the case law. However, jury simulations indicate they do....

>> http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3585801&postcount=45
Glenn E. Meyer said:
...Folks also don't understand that the DA doesn't have to make an explicit and big rant about the ammo or gun type (they could) - studies show that simple exposure to things that look deadly can influence the jury....

>> http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3577105&postcount=14
Glenn E. Meyer said:
Fiddletown sums it up so well. What he says also correlates very closely with the jury simulation research on weapons issues. I talked about such in my Polite Society presentation that Mas mentioned in his blog and I will be mentioning an upcoming article for Pax.

[2] If GSR test results could be important to your defense, if you used handloads you'll be highly unlikely to be able to get those test results into evidence. That's what Bais can teach us. And I outlined the technical reasons for that result in this post: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3577735&postcount=26

You have no way of knowing ahead of time whether either of these issues could be a factor in your particular defensive gun use. You have no way of knowing ahead of time whether in the legal aftermath of your particular defensive gun use handloads could hurt; but they certainly won't help.
 
I think the reloaders that don't want to carry their own reloads might use a progressive press. I'm just guessing, but from what I've seen at the places I shoot, most everyone I know with an automatic pistol that reloads with a progressive press has jams or FTF. If I used that type of press I wouldn't trust my life to my own reloads unless I also had the fourth step and used a Factory Crimp Die in the fourth hole. Even then I would run them through a case gauge to be sure. And most people don't take the time to do this. With old brass, it seems to me to be very important to do this if you want reliable ammo.

I'm one that doesn't care if there are my handloads in the gun. I load for my 1911 .45 on a Dillon 550B. I do use the 4th hole for taper crimp die. I do use used brass so run each one through a case gauge as part of the load process to catch those burrs on the head.

The ones that don't pass a case gauge get segregated and get shot only at the range. They usually all still go anyway. My Colt will feed some pretty funky ammo and still run!

I can't buy those high dollar hollow points like you guys, I have to cast my own LRN even but at least I have practiced with 1K's of what would be my SD ammo.
 
I think that some are missing the point.

"Self Defense" is an "active defense" against a charge of murder.

What this in effect means, is that in order for a defendent to use "self defense" as an active defense they de facto admit to guilt - in other words, the defendent must admit guilt in court to having shot and killed the assailant, but present as a mitigating circumstance that they acted in "self defense".

If the court does not agree that ultimately the shooting was justifiable, the defendent could be looking at 20 years or more.

What fiddletown, Erich, and others are saying, is that - particularly in cases where there was no video, no witnesses, and only those involved in the gunfight present - a great deal of the outcome of a trial can rest on circumstantial evidence.

In cases like this; if the shooter uses reloaded ammunition there is no way this can HELP in presenting an active defense; but it can HURT in numerous ways, to include offering an opportunity for an opposing attorney to raise doubts in the jurors' minds regarding the motive of the shooter.

Sometimes people don't realize that surviving a gunfight doesn't just mean surviving the exchange of gunfire, but it also means surviving the aftermath as well. If you plan for one, it makes sense to plan for the other. If you're planning for the other, it would be wise to not carry reloads in a self-defense handgun.

That said, do whatever you want to do. Should you find yourself in court, you are the one who will be looking at the twenty years - not the rest of us on some internet forum! Not to be dicksh, but at that point it isn't our problem!

;)
 
+1 Doc!

Virginia is the same way. Any shooting is automatically assumed to be at least second-degree murder, with a punishment of 5-20 years and a $100,000 fine. It is up to the shooter (even in the case of self-defense shooting) to prove that the shooting *wasn't* murder - there's no presumption of innocence.
 
Posted by ScottRiqui: Virginia is the same way. Any shooting is automatically assumed to be at least second-degree murder, with a punishment of 5-20 years and a $100,000 fine. It is up to the shooter (even in the case of self-defense shooting) to prove that the shooting *wasn't* murder - there's no presumption of innocence.

In many states the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The problem is that the evidence that the shooter used deadly force is not only clear, but the shooter will have to admit to having done so. It is then up to the shooter to produce evidence showing that all elements of a self defense justification were present. Sometimes that's pretty straightforward, but sometimes it is not, and one should expect that evidence to be challenged by the prosecution if things have progressed as far as a trial.

Here's a pretty good read on the subject, too long to paste in:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1e7698280d20385256d0b00789923/f587d7d10c34fff2852572b90069bc3c?OpenDocument&Click=

There seems to be a belief among some people that trouble for the shooter will stem from the anti-gun leanings of a "lefty DA" or a "rabid DA". I have to question that. If someone has shot someone else with a gun, and if evidence of justification is weak or lacking and is contradicted by other evidence and/or testimony, any investigator is going to suspect that the shooting was a criminal act. If it goes to trial, the state will have reason believe that there is a good chance of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed.

That's true anywhere in this country, and the DA may not only be as pro 2A as I am, he may have urged his family to carry concealed.

If a shooting cannot be avoided, one can at least have done everything possible to make sure that as much of the evidence that is under his control at the outset is favorable, whether it be choice of gun, choice of ammo, posters in his reloading room, and posts on the internet or letters to newspapers.
 
It seems that many people believe in their hearts that if they are ever to be involved in a self-defense shooting incident, it will be stone cold obvious even to the deaf/blind guy a mile away that they were acting purely in self-defense and that their life was immediately threatened by the bad, dead, guy. Hope you are never involved in a situation where your life is truly in danger, but if you are, I hope it works out for you.

It is interesting to me that even in Liberal Haven, PA (i.e., Philly) the DA does not often charge people who fire in self-defense situations. However, if the situation is one in which the shooter could easily have extracted himself or prevented escalation by walking away while muttering "sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me..." the DA will certainly charge you and you will have a heck of a time preserving your freedom. There was a case a few years back where some low life criminal went into a Chinese food place and tried to rob the owner. The owner drew a gun and the bad guy ran out the door and ran away. The owner chased him and fired, and killed the bad guy. No charges. Recently, some third year law student got into a fight with another drunk guy at bar-closing-time and when the fight escalated, the law student drew and fired, and killed the drunk guy. That law student is going to be a real asset to the mens he gets locked up with in the State Pen who need some low cost legal advice for their own appeals. Would handloads vs. factory ammo matter in either of those cases? Probably not. But remember that not every case where someone feels justified in pulling their gun will be a clear cut case of self-defense where your obvious innocence will be crystal clear to anyone and everyone. And, if you need gun shot residue evidence to prove YOUR case, and you have inadmissable handloading "notes", you might get a chance to meet some real charming friends on the inside of the State Pen. I am the last person to defend Mas Ayoob, as I agree that whatever his knowledge and experience he commands much less respect amongst shooters than he could if not for his self-important know-it-all attitude, HOWEVER, he kind of has a point that your handloading notes will not help you if YOU need the benefit of gun shot residue evidence to clear your butt.

And for goodness sake, if someone calls you a *****, WALK AWAY. Remember, "sticks and stones...."
 
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