Reloading Defensive Ammunition?

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If you really want opinions... try this thread

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388901

Thank goodness it was mercifully locked finally.

My intention at start was just to address what one would trust more factory or something you had crafted yourself.
It morphed into 5 pages of legal arguing until Bud Helms finally killed it... thank goodness.

It still absolutely amazes me that 56% of folks trust something that is churned out by the zillions in a dern machine more than 6 or 10 rounds they had meticulously crafted themselves. I guess those are the same folks that believe everything a doctor or a cop tells them.
 
The only real argument against reloads I've heard is reliability. I have total confidence in my reloads and that's what I carry. 230 gr. Golden Saber powdered by AA#5. Look at some of those factory bullets, it hurts just to look at them and the damage they would cause. But I have never found a factory round that will shoot any where near as good as one of my home brews, that's why I carry my own. That way I know exactly where that bullet is going. I don't think the lawyer argument has much weight now days with the kind of destructive bullets they make now days. I still use a single stage press and every round goes through my case gauge before I put it in the box. Never had a FTF, knock on wood.
 
What about loading the hollow point with mercury and then capping it off. Is it illegal in any way?

As has been discussed MANY times, the mercury gag doesn't work and is a Hollywood bit of foolishness.

Mercury amalgamates with lead.
Putting mercury in a lead bullet will cause the bullet to turn to a more or less liquid substance.
 
Mercury bullets would be dumb. The lead would react to the mercury unfavorably and may have trouble staying sealed.

The reload for self defense thing is getting moot as time goes on. The ammo is getting scarcer and more expensive, and the economy worse so reloads will be a practical solution to a couple of real problems. Yes yes, it may be an issue in court or may not, but it is whatit is. the odds still favor not being in a gunfight anyway so I care little for if Ihappen to have reloads in my gun or not. At least I know it's good ammo. And besides, I have been reloading for~30 yrs or more so it shouldn't sound extraordinary for a long time reloader to gasp have reloads in his gun.
 
Defensive Loads

This is a subject people are very passionate about, so my comments are not intended to offend anyone that see’s this differently. I carry my loads for defensive use in my 4” Kimber CPD, for several reasons. I have 25 plus years of reloading and have 25 plus years of Law Enforcement. The reason for me is that I shoot a great deal since retirement, so make loads that match the carry ammo for practice. The argument for being sued in civil court, which ammo could be used against you, anything in a civil case can be used against you. My response would be that my reloads are made for the maximum accuracy, so if involved in a shooting would be more likely to hit the intended target not endanger others. I also keep a record in my load book with M/V & comments on the load. I think if you used some factory, +P+ ammo that is said to have “knock down power” this could also be an issue used. I think in a civil case it would not be a major problem if the other elements of the incident are ok.
In a criminal case, I do not see how it would be an issue, most laws that cover the use of deadly force for the defense of the person involved or a third party, cover when such force can be used. In this case my feeling is if deadly force was justified it makes little difference what device was used. If the person used a baseball bat, knife, motor vehicle, attack dog, or chain saw or hand load. I think the issue would boil down to was, the use of force justified under the law.
 
I wind up my participation in this thread with this.

Regarding criminal prosecution, the prosecutor will have far more cases to prosecute than he/she can competently handle. That goes with the job. Your self defense case will not cause him/her to lose sleep unless you really screwed up. And he/she will get paid either way.

But if you get sued, and remember you can be sued for anything, you will face a plaintiff's attorney who probably took the case for a share of the prize. He/she will lose sleep over your case. And so will you.

G'day, Jack
 
Dragon55, Dfariswheel, running iron:
Just as a favor to me, could you please read my post and respond to it? If even just to humor me?

If it's just about not wanting to pay for high dollar factory defense ammo, that's fine. I'm frugal, too. But if it's only about reliability, why doesn't anyone ever even have a response to my suggestion?
 
Stevens, I'm not sure what your point is, I'm NOT afraid of reloaded ammo so why would I try to make reloaded ammo look like factory? My point was that i trust my reloaded ammo much more because I have spent countless range sessions to make a round shoot in my weapon that goes exactly where I want it to go. I trust factory ammo to go bang but have little faith in it's intended path of flight. I hope that answers your dilemma.
 
It's not a dilemma. I don't begrudge anyone their choice. I
I'll make this simple: if you don't think it's a liability in court-- thumbs up, I have no problem with your choice.

If you think it might be a liability in court, but are willing to risk that chance (however small) because you honestly feel that factory ammo is poor in quality, then why not take the best of both worlds and break down some factory ammo, and then re-assemble it to your level of satisfaction?

While on this, I'd like to know how anyone is supposed to know, for sure, if a primer itself will go bang when it's supposed to. Flash holes, poor crimp, lack of powder, all of this can be verified with the naked eye. And yes, you can see, to a point, there a primer "looks" okay.

Until you pop it, you can't be 100% sure that your primer is good unless you manufactured the primer.

How many of you guys manufacturer primers?

I've been handloading since 1988 or 1989, not sure which. Truth is, I've fired a helluva lot less factory ammo than many of you folks. Hell, most of you folks. I handload in more than a dozen calibers and outside of rimfire, I don't buy or shoot factory ammo.

Well... except for high dollar defense ammo in my carry & home defense guns, that is.
 
Reloads versus factory ammunition in a self-defense shooting will never be an issue *in a criminal trial*.

If a self-defense shooting is justified, it would have been justified whether you were carrying a .22 or a .44 magnum.

The fact that your personal loads may differ slightly from factory loads is irrelevant, because now matter how powerful/destructive your handloads are, there's always some factory load out there (perhaps in a different caliber) that's even *more* powerful and destructive than your handloads, and if the shooting would have been justified had you been carrying the more powerful factory ammunition, there's no reason to rule the shooting as unjustified with your weaker handloads.

Now in a civil case, where the burden of proof is lower and jurors may be a little more willing to burn you because they're "only taking away your money, not your freedom", things may be a little bit different. But how many cases have there been where the shooting was ruled as justified by the criminal courts but the shooter lost a civil case anyway? I can't think of any offhand.
 
Response to SEVENS

I'm still not real clear what it is you're asking me (us) to do.


I have taken apart some factory ammo just out of curiosity. Of course I had no idea

what powder or primer was used. And.... yes I put it back together and fired it.


I won't go through all that just to check some carry ammo.

I'll just use some carry ammo that I have spent a lot of extra time assembling.

I posted the original poll in the reloading forum (I didn't do a good job phrasing the

question but I think the results were still valid). I think a bunch of non-reloaders

responded to the poll accounting for such a skewed result(56% for factory SD).

However, there were responding reloaders claiming years of experience who said

they would still rely on factory SD ammo instead of using their own 'crafted' loads. I

just find this fascinating.


I've stated I compare this to.............. let's say an expert in brake repair sending his

wife to Joe Schmo's brake shop instead of repairing them himself.
 
DRAGON 55, I think the reloaders that don't want to carry their own reloads might use a progressive press. I'm just guessing, but from what I've seen at the places I shoot, most everyone I know with an automatic pistol that reloads with a progressive press has jams or FTF. If I used that type of press I wouldn't trust my life to my own reloads unless I also had the fourth step and used a Factory Crimp Die in the fourth hole. Even then I would run them through a case gauge to be sure. And most people don't take the time to do this. With old brass, it seems to me to be very important to do this if you want reliable ammo. I see jams and FTF all the time with every kind of auto you can imagine. I really think a large majority of people out there would be better served with a revolver to defend themselves. Just my observations, and I could be way off base. I only know what I've seen and mean no disrespect to anyone.
 
I have loaded my own self defense rounds for many years. They are as reliable as factory rounds. If you are a handloader, think back to how many failures, or dud rounds you have had from your handloads. I have had none. Quality components assembled with skill and care, work just as well for us as they do for manufacturers.

Another thing I learned many years ago is to ignore any thing written in gun magazines. Any skilled and experienced handloader has as much practical knowledge as those self-proclaimed experts with Microsoft Office.
 
OK gents, this is what I'm trying to duplicate:

waterrecovered.jpg


NOT the XTP stuff out now - I can't get XTP to expand well, even at +P velocities (950fps). From my observations, that bullet comes into its own with 9mm velocities.

From what I can tell, this is probably the best ammo out there for my needs.

The test thread can be found here:

http://handgunsandammo.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ammotestarchive&action=display&thread=6932

If anyone has a location for this stuff, I'll gladly buy it up.

Otherwise, it will be hand loads (new brass, new bullets), each weighed and measured individually for quality.

I do not believe hand loads would be an issue in Indiana.

Thanks,

Josh
 
Here in Louisiana, I am not worried about overzealous anti-gun prosecutors trying to condemn me for using lead bullet reloads, i.e. technology as old as center-fire ammunition itself. For that matter, it wouldn't be an issue if I used JHPs either.

There IS a huge market for ambulance-chasing tort lawyers here, unfortunately, but too many people here are familiar and comfortable with shooting, hunting, self- and home-defense to find a jury full of rubes or pantywaists who could be wowed into believing that my lead bullet loads were some sort of diabolical ammo. Where I live, beautiful women and sweet young girls are liable to talk happily about the number of points on the buck they took on opening day! If they don't hunt themselves, they know women/girls who do, and the hunting experiences of their "menfolks" provide common conversational fare.

I have long enjoyed Massad Ayoob's works and still do whenever I get a chance, although I generally use my "gun money" for other stuff besides gun magazines these days. But does anyone remember his comment in one book--probably "In the Gravest Extreme"--in which he suggests how to answer anyone who asserts that your gun is "more likely to kill someone in your own family than a criminal"? Namely, "Maybe you're likely to kill your wife, but I'm not" or some snappy putdown like that. Well, my family members aren't committing suicide, so I'm not going to be accused of shooting one of them (isn't that the legal difficulty he often uses to illustrate this matter?)

I respect Ayoob's advice to a huge degree, and I think as a "one size fits all" statement that his stance on handloaded SD ammo makes a lot of sense. After all, he lives in New England and is surrounded daily by evidence of high profile anti-gun craziness & its implications from across the nation. But in my area, living my lifestyle, with my life history & associations, etc., I don't think it's an issue whatsoever. I'd be comfortable (and often have been) carrying commercial ammo in my SD/HD firearms. But nowadays, I'm into reloading and even bullet casting as hobbies, so I actually use stuff I cast & load & practice with a lot for my SD/HD purposes.
 
I wouldn't think twice about what rounds were in my gun if I needed it...I shoot mainly reloads but carry factory ammo.If I couldn't find factory for whatever reason, I would carry reloads without a worry...my choice ...yours may vary..:cool:
 
BTW, I am not going to argue that handloads are more reliable than factory, because I'm sure that's not typically true.

With that said, however, in recent memory I have had case splits with a Federal .32 S&W Long (!) and a Cor-Bon 200g .45 Colt "+P". The former actually jammed the revolver I was shooting, as the extractor rode out over the stuck case & then could not re-seat until I poked the case out of the chamber. (So much for "revolvers can't jam.") I wonder if the Cor-Bon was loaded too hot for the brass to withstand firing in the generous chambers of my Ruger Vaquero?

I've had a few factory rounds fail to ignite priimers, but one or two handloads had the same problem. In all cases, primers were well-struck. (And yes, no need for immediate action drills with a revolver--just pull the trigger again.)
 
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