Reloading .357 rifle ammo

[buck460XVR]

going up to .357 maximum would be a huge leap, and every step farther up the capacity you would go, the more improvement you would find.

My point was that if you have to crush a load to reach velocities needed, it may lead to an improved version. .357 max was a great idea, as was the .444marlin. Took good rounds to the next. Level.

The thing is, the OP is not looking for a platform, he is looking for an effective load for a platform he already has. He has proven his platform is a viable deer rifle for the scenarios he uses it in. Why are folks constantly suggesting to others to buy a different gun/caliber when all they want is a load recipe?

I shoot the same loads in my Rossi M92 as I do in my 686s. I also shoot the same loads in my Ruger 77/44 and Marlin '94 as I do in my 629s. All have killed deer effectively. If I was going to hunt Hogs with any of the .357s, I probably would go with a 180 gr JSP or Hard Cast and a hefty load of H110/W296 and keep the shots close as possible.

 

[849ACSO]

A near max load of H110 and a 158 grain jacketed slug typically get me somewhere in the 1600 FPS range with my Rossi R92 rifle. I would use something like that, coupled with a bonded 158 (Speer Gold Dot HP) for hogs.

A few years ago, I decided I wanted to get on the cast bandwagon and slow the slug down. Using a 158 "Ranger" from Missouri Bullet Company and 8.7 grains of blue dot, I hit right around 1350 in my 18" rifle. Accuracy was superb (2" at 100 yards with factory iron), nice lube ring at the end of the barrel and no leading.

That year I killed a doe with that combo, and this year, I loaned the rifle and those reloads to a friends 10 year old son and he killed his first deer with it.

The 357 rifle is often overlooked/snubbed as a short to intermediate range deer gun, but in my experience, it's easy enough that a 10 year old can do it.

 

[tomingreeneco]

I take exception to almost everything above, but most especially the comment about "rifle powder"So you can't use IMR OR H-4227, both started out as rifle powders? Then you go on to say "pistol powders" Semi auto pistols, single shot pistols? Most of the powders we now use in handgun loading started their life as shotgun propellant.

You can most CERTAINLY make a round that will work great in both a revolver AND a rifle. I did precisely that in my partner set-up, my Ruger GP-100 and my Rossi M92-.357 both . Using my home cast Lyman 168 SWC mold, (that actually cast out at 173 grains), I loaded them with AA#9, top loads, you look up how much. I won't, in most cases, give actual grain weights over the I-net. It worked great, got a nice 4" group @ 25 yds from the GP-100, and 2.5" from the Rossi. Chronograph said I gained 165 fps from the extra barrel length of the rifle.

The old west gunners almost always had the same ammo for their partner guns of a six shooter and a levergun. That way they didn't have to keep two different calibers in their saddle bags. That's what I wanted to do with my first Rossi, a 45 colt. THEN I saw what I'd have to spend for a 45 colt revolver!!

The much cheaper was to partner my GP-100, (that I already owned), with another Rossi M-92. I may someday get a Ruger vaquero, in 45 colt. THEN the only problem would be choosing which one to take out for a range session! A great problem to have, I know. The solution would most likely be to take both combo's fun FUN FUN

I never said you can not use both rounds in either a rifle or pistol.
I stated that you should not work up a round just for your rifle that may be too much if used in a pistol. Typically powder that is used in rifle round is slower burning and does not work well in most pistols. Faster pistol powder does not get good velocities when shot from a longer barreled rifle.

So if you want to work up wild cat loads with rifle powder to shot in your pistol we might be seeing you in the obits.

I have shot CAS for years and the use same cartridges in both lever gun and pistol. But DO NOT work up different loads for them

 

[reloader28]

I'm with Stubbycat.
We use 165gr cast RF with enough 2400 for 1660fps in a short Rossi and it is awesome on deer.
I think it would work great on pigs too.

 

[ibfestus]

2400 vs H-110

There is only 1 dominate reason I am using H110 over 2400... I refuse to pay a HAZMAT fee to ship a single pound of powder. There is no 2400 for sale anywhere in my vicinity. Folks like Graf & sons, Bass Pro, and local vendors are out of stockas are the local shops. H-110 is easy to find. Blue Dot is another interesting powder but the guy at Bass Pro couldn't even find it in the system.

110 seems to be doing great in the Ruger 77 and Unique is my choice for the .38 sp. pistol, and is readily available.

Next project is to try the Hornady XTP 180 grJHP (on sale at Midway, $20/100).

 

[buck460XVR]

I stated that you should not work up a round just for your rifle that may be too much if used in a pistol. Typically powder that is used in rifle round is slower burning and does not work well in most pistols. Faster pistol powder does not get good velocities when shot from a longer barreled rifle.

So if you want to work up wild cat loads with rifle powder to shot in your pistol we might be seeing you in the obits.

The thing is, .357 mag, whether outta a rifle or a handgun, is still a handgun round. You use the same cases, same powders, same primers and same projectiles. Just because you shoot the .44 mag round in a rifle/carbine, doesn't mean you now use rifle powders Look in any reloading manual, none, and I mean none, change powders when changing from handgun to rifle loads, and none use standard rifle powders instead of handgun powders...the exception is IMR4227 which is also regularly used in handgun loads. Most of the time they do not change the powder charge. While IMR 4227 is a rifle powder, it is still very safe to use in handguns because it is a very fast rifle powder. For the most part, you can not get enough rifle powder in a handgun caliber case(especially the .357) to even make a viable load, much less send yourself into orbit. Odds are you are looking at a squib instead. That's the problem with IMR4227, you need to compress the load in order to get lose to performance of other handgun caliber powders. Faster pistol powders do not produce velocities as high as slower burning powders in handguns either. Almost always, the powder that produces the highest velocities in a 26'' .357 rifle barrel will also produce the highest velocities in a 4'' revolver. SAAMI specs are the same for .357 rifles as they are for handguns, because the specs are based on the cartridge, not the platform. Thus any published load that is safe for a modern .357 rifle is also safe for a modern .357 handgun and vice versa.

 

[snuffy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol

From^^ ^^A pistol is a type of handgun. Some handgun experts and dictionaries make a technical distinction that views pistols as a subset of handguns; others use the terms interchangeably. Sometimes in usage, the term "pistol" refers to a handgun having one chamber integral with the barrel,[1][2] making pistols distinct from the other main type of handgun, the revolver, which has a revolving cylinder containing multiple chambers.

. I also would NOT use a rifle powder, too big a chance that it may get used in a revolver. A slower burning pistol powder at max load will give you higher velocities then the same load in a pistol.

You are using two terms interchangeably, that is what's got me confused. AND everybody else.

IMR/H-4227, AL 2400, win-296/H-110 are all fast burning rifle powders that can be used in .357 ammo, and that ammo can also be used in any .357 revolver. Yes the TC contender is a pistol so it would be proper in that instance if it were chambered in .357.

I do agree that a load worked up in the O.P.'s 77/.357 might be too hot for a lightly built revolver. If that's what you meant, then okay.

 

[buck460XVR]

IMR/H-4227, AL 2400, win-296/H-110 are all fast burning rifle powders that can be used in .357 ammo, and that ammo can also be used in any .357 revolver. Yes the TC contender is a pistol so it would be proper in that instance if it were chambered in .357.

I do agree that a load worked up in the O.P.'s 77/.357 might be too hot for a lightly built revolver. If that's what you meant, then okay.

According to the manufacturers/distributors of those powders, they are all slow burning "magnum Handgun" powders and not fast burning rifle powders. Only IMR4227 is referenced to use in rifle and those are limited applications. H4227 has been discontinued and not even listed by Hodgdon anymore. Again, SAAMI specs for .357 rifle cartridges are the exact same as for handgun. A cartridge not safe in a modern .357 handgun, will not be any safer in the OP's 77/357....exception would be in light charges with fast burning powders meant for powder puff loads. Then there is a chance of a stuck bullet in the longer barrel. As for IMR4227, you cannot get enough of it in a .357 case and still be able to seat a bullet and have a dangerous load......period. Probably the same with H110/W296. Again, this is why thinking of using even slower burning rifle type powders in .357 is ridiculous.

 

[Real Gun]

Sevens,

With Unique, where would you place pop-gun loads at? Top end with plated?

Berry says they can go to 1200 fps and nothing I'm loading is within 200 fps of that by book. Will a rifle add 200 fps?

The lack of plated data gives me fits.

6.0 Unique 158 lead, 1034 fps top end
7.7 Unique 158 XTP, 1040 fps top end

I picked 7.2 out of the air. I'll know more Friday if I get out to crono them.

Those are not magnum velocities but rather plated bullet velocities. I am guessing they shoot pretty well, taming the beast.

 

[44 AMP]

According to the manufacturers/distributors of those powders, they are all slow burning "magnum Handgun" powders and not fast burning rifle powders.

Yep, that's what they call them, TODAY.

Half a century ago, they called them fast rifle powders. There is more than enough overlap with certain powders that it is rather foolish to argue about it.

I use 2400 in the .22 Hornet, is it a rifle powder when I shoot it from my Ruger No.3? Is it a pistol powder when I shoot it from my T/C Contender 10"?

4227 and 4198 are also used in the Hornet. And a lot of other rounds as well.

There are RIFLE rounds with smaller case capacities than some pistol rounds. The NAME rifle or pistol (or shotgun) on a powder doesn't matter much, what matters is how well its burning rate suits a specific application, and case size.

As for IMR4227, you cannot get enough of it in a .357 case and still be able to seat a bullet and have a dangerous load......period. Probably the same with H110/W296.

I don't know about 4227, I don't use it, but I do know about 296 and 2400 and you absolutely CAN put too much of those in a .357 case! Particularly for certain guns!

I stated that you should not work up a round just for your rifle that may be too much if used in a pistol. Typically powder that is used in rifle round is slower burning and does not work well in most pistols. Faster pistol powder does not get good velocities when shot from a longer barreled rifle.

I agree that extra precautions should be taken if you have rifle loads that you pistol will not handle. SO what? You can also have pistol loads that some pistols cannot handle. Just CLEARLY identify them (some people use only brass cases for rifle loads, nickel for pistol, others use other systems) and you won't have anyone but yourself to blame if you make a mistake.

I've got some "pistol loads" in .357 that are too hot for my rifle! Also too hot for some of my pistols, but NOT for the one they were developed for.

If you are going to develop loads in this class, it is your responsibility to see to it they only get used in the guns they were developed in.

I take a bit of exception to "faster pistol powders not getting good velocity shot from a rifle.." They get an improvement over being shot from a pistol. EVERY TIME.

What they don't do is get as large a percentage of improvement as a slower powder does from a longer barrel.

 

[KEYBEAR]

I see no reason to load a Rifle like the 77/44 any hotter (faster) than handgun data . Fact is an 18 inch barrel will add 200 FPS all by itself .

My son has shot a hog every year for the last 6 years . All he has every used is the 44 MAG In a Super Blackhawh 7.5 barrel or Ruger 77/44 .
I load all the ammo for hunting with the 44 mag the same 240gr XTP Win 296 and Win primer . I load a little less than max and he has never shot a hog twice .

 

[Wendyj]

I just started mine a month or so ago but I'm having great accuracy with skinner peep sight on my Rossi using Hornady 158 gr cast under 6.6 grains of HP 38. Standard primers. Using the same load in a 686 revolver. Haven't been to the range in a few weeks but hope to chronograph some loads this weekend. I'm running about 3/10 a grain less than max in Hornady manual. I see no pressure signs but I'm happy with the accuracy of this load. like they said in a carbine. Very little recoil or noise.

 

[buck460XVR]

what matters is how well its burning rate suits a specific application, and case size.

Yep....and why now the powder companies cal them magnum handgun powders and not rifle powders, eh?

While there is always some instances where one powder may overlap two platforms(especially with handgun and shotgun), you are correct, the companies will market them for the scenario where they work best. I assume this is why they don't market IMR4227 and H110/W296 as "rifle" powders anymore. Doesn't have any bearing on their performance in either tho. Thus using what one calls a "rifle" powder in a handgun cartridge does not make it shoot like a rifle. It's the performance of that powder in the specific cartridge that matters. The barrel length of the rifle is what will enhance performance, not what you personally want to call the powder.

I don't know about 4227, I don't use it, but I do know about 296 and 2400 and you absolutely CAN put too much of those in a .357 case!

I never said anything of the such about 2400, so don't put words in my mouth/post. But with 4227, impossible. Max loads for it are already heavily compressed and those pressures are well below SAAMI. Because of it's slowness. This is why you cannot get max velocities with IMR4227 in .357 even tho it's the slowest burning powder generally used in .357........you can't get enough of it in the case! That's why it works better with larger case like .44 mag and .460, and heavier bullets, because less volume is needed. H110, improbable, as max loads for a 140 and 158 in a .357 case are at or above compressed depending on the source. I am not tho in any way suggesting going above max loads in published sources. There simply is no need.

Again........ this is why the mention of using rifle powders is ridiculous. Again, not enough room in the small .357 case for the volume the slower burning rifle powders needs to perform. Thus loads made from rifle powders are going to be weaker than the use of handgun powders, not "hotter".

There is no sensible reason to load a SAAMI spec'd .357 rifle to higher pressures than a .357 SAAMI spec'd handgun.....because they are the same. Loads for the most part are cartridge specific, not platform. Exception would be "Ruger only" loads for handguns deemed safe for them. The Ruger 77/357 is not one of those. Thu safe loads for the 77/357 rifle will always be just as safe for .357 handguns. Simple, not rocket science, but how it is.

 

[44 AMP]

There is no sensible reason to load a SAAMI spec'd .357 rifle to higher pressures than a .357 SAAMI spec'd handgun.....

That is your judgment call, I see things a bit differently, so we will disagree on this point.

SAAMI standards are the max safe working pressures decided on to be safe in everything one is likely to find chambered in that cartridge.

Not everyone agrees that they are the drop dead, go no further, limits as to what is safe. There are many examples of commercial ammunition loaded to limits other than SAAMI.

One of the joys of handloading is that one can custom tailor ones ammo to the individual guns being used. One of the headaches is that if you do this, you have to ensure the ammo is not used in unsuitable guns.

 

[TimSr]

I have a Ruger 77/.357. My questions are:

1. Can I use Small Rifle Primers instead of magnum pistol primers? I am using H-110 behind jacketed 140 and 158 bullets.

2. Does anybody have a real kick ask .357 rile load for pigs in heavy cover?

Wow, so many answers to a question never asked!

1. YES. Small rifle primers burn very similar to magnum pistol primers. They can withstand higher pressures. Some revolvers don't have enough force to pop rifle primers. Your Ruger 77 will have no issues.

2. There are as many loads as people posting. The Hornady XTP has a huge fan base as a hunting bullet. I'm one of them. I'm partial to the 158gr over 17gr of 110/296 from a revolver, but your rifle might like a 180gr. even better.

 

[Real Gun]

<snip>SAAMI standards are the max safe working pressures decided on to be safe in everything one is likely to find chambered in that cartridge

Not everyone agrees that they are the drop dead, go no further, limits as to what is safe. There are many examples of commercial ammunition loaded to limits other than SAAMI.<snip>

I believe few are qualified to make that call or have the wherewithal to do the responsible testing necessary to certify the loads.

 

[KEYBEAR]

I could not agree more how people think they know more and can do more ??
Some buy a 357 Mag than TRY to make a 44 Mag out of it .
I have seen guns come apart (not good)

If you are one that likes to really load hot please let people that may be shooting next to you know . (I would move back)

A good reloading manual has Max loads for a reason

 

[buck460XVR]

There is no sensible reason to load a SAAMI spec'd .357 rifle to higher pressures than a .357 SAAMI spec'd handgun.....

That is your judgment call, I see things a bit differently, so we will disagree on this point.

The key word there is sensible. It could also be practical. As KEYBEAR said...."Some buy a 357 Mag than TRY to make a 44 Mag out of it ". I often wonder why. One buys a 77/357 and tries to make it into a 77/44? Why? They sell 77/44s too. I have one, great little deer rifle. Years ago when there was no better option than loading a caliber "hot", there was a legitimate reason. Nowadays, there are better and safer options. Ain't no one buying a 77/357 for defense against dangerous game. It's for hunting deer size game, varmints and range use. Any published load book will give you all the power you need for that, and well within SAAMI guidelines. I wonder how sensible it is for staff on gun forums to tell folks it's safe and sensible to load over SAAMI limits, just cause you can? If there's a legitimate, sensible and practical reason to develop a different load for a 77/357 rifle as opposed to revolver, it's for accuracy......not absolute velocity.

There are many examples of commercial ammunition loaded to limits other than SAAMI.

Not so in .357.

 

[44 AMP]

.44 Magnum
.454 Casull
"Ruger only" loads in .45 Colt

All these, (and likely others I cannot recall right now) came about as a result of people "pushing the envelope". And in the beginning, done by individuals without sophisticated pressure measuring equipment.

yes, they were "off the map" regarding established pressure standard. Yes, they blew up some guns. They were operating trial and error, off of observed behavior of the guns and brass as their limiting factors.

Is it sensible to exceed the established limits? Some don't think so. Others think it is worth finding out if it can be done. Sometimes what they find out results in new standards.

As far as I can determine I never advocated anyone exceeding published limits as a safe and sensible practice. What I meant to convey was that people do it, and it does not automatically result in destroyed guns. It can, and certainly does when carried too far, but short of that point there is a zone above published limits, and those choosing to go there are entirely responsible for what ever happens.

If you got something else from what I wrote, then I apologize for your lack of comprehension.

while I am not aware of any commercial .357 loads above SAAMI specs, in other calibers loads outside SAAMI specs are commercially loaded. There is no SAAMI spec for +p+ ammo.

As far as I know, European ammo is not loaded to SAAMI specs. It is loaded to their specs, which may, or may not match SAAMI. 9mm comes to mind...

 

[Jeffm004]

I'm at deer camp but I did crono some 158 grn plated and JP. The rife added 200 fps and H110 did even better. Based on what I saw, it is what I would use. I don't have the data here but it will do for Mr. Pig. I'll still use my 45-70, but it would do.

I need my wife to call so I can go to sleep. 4 AM is coming quick.