Religion...
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parabellum
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...And what RikWriter said touches upon the deep mystery at the center of all this. The FACT is, noone, and I don't care who you are, noone has all the answers.
I'd like to address the concept mentioned above of Christians being some of the best or worst people, etc. "Hypocrite" wasn't mentioned specifically, but it seems to be always in the background of such discussions.
The United States of America was founded primarily by committed Christians. "Endowed by their Creator" and all that. The culture of the U.S. has continued to be primarily a Judeo-Christian one in terms of commonly accepted morals and a significantly high percentage of people who do believe that the Bible is the foundation for everything.
However, with the freedom to believe anything we want to has come the freedom to define anything we the way want to. This becomes problematic in conversation. Because Christianity has been commonly accepted in the U.S., many people refer to themselves as Christians-though many have different definitions for the term "Christian." Some are quote "Christians" because they attend church occasionally in the same manner as some go to country clubs (or the range!)-it's a purely social thing. Others among us would define "Christian" much more narrowly--as one who has made a personal, lifetime commitment to let Jesus do what's necessary toward our entrance into Heaven (His dying on the cross), and understand that our good works are only a 'thank-you', not contributing in any way toward earning such a reward. (Not trying to get preachy, just trying to explain clearly.)
Even those who agree with and follow the second definition have their own personal hang-ups which haven't gotten worked out yet. So the atheists and agnostics may be seeing a committed Christian with a personal problem in just one area, and write off the whole bunch of us. Or you may see one of the purely social "Christians" who really doesn't care about his behavior, morals, etc, because for him it's just a social thing.
I have a relative who believes he's a Christian because he's an American and he's never killed anyone. He told me that. I would say he's a social Christian.
In other countries, say Saudi Arabia or China, it is not popular to be a Christian. In Muslim communities, when one converts to Christianity, the family will hold a funeral. It might not just be figurative, because killing a newly converted Christian -just because of the conversion-is done. In China, telling the wrong person, "I'm a Christian" will earn you years in a labor camp. I remember a story about several Chinese Christians talking to an American Christian, and eventually the Chinese asked the American where he had served his prison time. The American stuttered and explained that he hadn't served any time in prison. The Chinese asked, "Where have you compromised?!"
In America, it's common for folks to claim they're Christians. In China and other places it's not. Understanding the differences between social "Christians" and committed Christians may help this discussion.
Erik mentioned that there's lots of Christians in the liberal camp. As a conservative, committed Christian, I would argue that the Christians in the liberal camp are most likely the social type. Reasoning: the Bible talks a lot about the value of human life, how can one professing belief in the Bible be pro-abortion or pro-euthanasia or pro-suicide? Other issues are similar, I won't take space here. You get the drift.
Bottom line for TFLers: Personally I am a committed Christian who never thought much about RKBA. Just never thought about it. I'm very glad for the RKBA discussions here at TFL. I've learned a lot and have come firmly into the RKBA camp. Thanks! Hope we can continue to get along working together to preserve RKBA.
Ooohh, this is getting long. Will quit now.
--Denise
The United States of America was founded primarily by committed Christians. "Endowed by their Creator" and all that. The culture of the U.S. has continued to be primarily a Judeo-Christian one in terms of commonly accepted morals and a significantly high percentage of people who do believe that the Bible is the foundation for everything.
However, with the freedom to believe anything we want to has come the freedom to define anything we the way want to. This becomes problematic in conversation. Because Christianity has been commonly accepted in the U.S., many people refer to themselves as Christians-though many have different definitions for the term "Christian." Some are quote "Christians" because they attend church occasionally in the same manner as some go to country clubs (or the range!)-it's a purely social thing. Others among us would define "Christian" much more narrowly--as one who has made a personal, lifetime commitment to let Jesus do what's necessary toward our entrance into Heaven (His dying on the cross), and understand that our good works are only a 'thank-you', not contributing in any way toward earning such a reward. (Not trying to get preachy, just trying to explain clearly.)
Even those who agree with and follow the second definition have their own personal hang-ups which haven't gotten worked out yet. So the atheists and agnostics may be seeing a committed Christian with a personal problem in just one area, and write off the whole bunch of us. Or you may see one of the purely social "Christians" who really doesn't care about his behavior, morals, etc, because for him it's just a social thing.
I have a relative who believes he's a Christian because he's an American and he's never killed anyone. He told me that. I would say he's a social Christian.
In other countries, say Saudi Arabia or China, it is not popular to be a Christian. In Muslim communities, when one converts to Christianity, the family will hold a funeral. It might not just be figurative, because killing a newly converted Christian -just because of the conversion-is done. In China, telling the wrong person, "I'm a Christian" will earn you years in a labor camp. I remember a story about several Chinese Christians talking to an American Christian, and eventually the Chinese asked the American where he had served his prison time. The American stuttered and explained that he hadn't served any time in prison. The Chinese asked, "Where have you compromised?!"
In America, it's common for folks to claim they're Christians. In China and other places it's not. Understanding the differences between social "Christians" and committed Christians may help this discussion.
Erik mentioned that there's lots of Christians in the liberal camp. As a conservative, committed Christian, I would argue that the Christians in the liberal camp are most likely the social type. Reasoning: the Bible talks a lot about the value of human life, how can one professing belief in the Bible be pro-abortion or pro-euthanasia or pro-suicide? Other issues are similar, I won't take space here. You get the drift.
Bottom line for TFLers: Personally I am a committed Christian who never thought much about RKBA. Just never thought about it. I'm very glad for the RKBA discussions here at TFL. I've learned a lot and have come firmly into the RKBA camp. Thanks! Hope we can continue to get along working together to preserve RKBA.
Ooohh, this is getting long. Will quit now.
--Denise
Keiller TN
New member
I agree with sbryce that Christians played a big part in the beginnings of this country and also enfluenced the laws heavily. I waas born again spiritually when I was 30 years old. I would be surprised if there were many Christians who frequent this board. Many would consider this majoring on a minor issue in the eternal scope of things. I would think agnostics would be here in greater numbers, since the immediate would be more important to them. BTW, I don't think there is such a thing as an atheist.
Denise,
You made a good point regarding criticisms of of people who claim to be Christians and live as if they aren't. Most people who claim to be Christians believe they are because they aren't Muslims, etc. We know that to be a Christian means to repent and come to Christ in faith. Recognizing that we have no righteousness of our own, trusting His finished work on the cross as atonement for our sins if we come to him in faith, and giving Him our life to use as He will. The Bible is clear. One who claims to be a Christian and does not live according to the commands and precepts that Christ has given is not a Christian. A dog acts like a dog because he is a dog. A Christian must act like a Christian because that is his nature. Perfect? No, but he is committed to righteousness and when he fails he repents. I would submit that with the liberal churches and teachings of the last 20 years that churches are filled with lost (non Christian) people. They like the rest of unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Unfortunately, many judge Christianity by the worst professors that they know and thereby claim that Christians are no better than the rest of the world in their conduct. That isn't true. In addition, the standards of righteousness are not men, but Christ. Anyone who is around me will hear the Gospel, but what they do with it is between them and God. I am responsible to give the Message and to live as a light in a dark world. I am not responsible for another's rejection of Christ, and the result that they will spend eternity in a place the Bible calls hell and the lake of fire. Jerry
You made a good point regarding criticisms of of people who claim to be Christians and live as if they aren't. Most people who claim to be Christians believe they are because they aren't Muslims, etc. We know that to be a Christian means to repent and come to Christ in faith. Recognizing that we have no righteousness of our own, trusting His finished work on the cross as atonement for our sins if we come to him in faith, and giving Him our life to use as He will. The Bible is clear. One who claims to be a Christian and does not live according to the commands and precepts that Christ has given is not a Christian. A dog acts like a dog because he is a dog. A Christian must act like a Christian because that is his nature. Perfect? No, but he is committed to righteousness and when he fails he repents. I would submit that with the liberal churches and teachings of the last 20 years that churches are filled with lost (non Christian) people. They like the rest of unbelievers will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Unfortunately, many judge Christianity by the worst professors that they know and thereby claim that Christians are no better than the rest of the world in their conduct. That isn't true. In addition, the standards of righteousness are not men, but Christ. Anyone who is around me will hear the Gospel, but what they do with it is between them and God. I am responsible to give the Message and to live as a light in a dark world. I am not responsible for another's rejection of Christ, and the result that they will spend eternity in a place the Bible calls hell and the lake of fire. Jerry
I am with you smithz. I belive in me and mine. I do have a problem with the religous right trying to tell me how to live my life. Same with the anti-gun left. Pro-choice!!! Get the government out of my life and let me and you live as you choose. To those who say pro-life I say the cursades killed alot of people in the name of god. Not my cup of tea. Being 29 I am a little young to be in to punk rock but the DIY ( Do it your self) strikes a cord ( no pun) with with me. The Clash, Rancid. Listen and think about it.
Keiller, believe me, there are such things as atheists...several brands of them in fact. Many people would label me an atheist, but I prefer to think of myself as a nontheistic agnostic. That is, I totally disbelieve in the possibility that a PERSONAL God exists---a God with a personality such as humans have. I disbelieve this because of the anthropomorphism involved in such a concept. But I don't know for sure that there is NOTHING out there...universal mind, Karma, that sort of thing. So I am agnostic toward the existence of the nonphysical, but totally atheistic towards the idea, put forth in the various human monotheistic religions, that there is a personal God who created humans in his image and holds them as more important and special than anything else in this universe.
[This message has been edited by RikWriter (edited March 24, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by RikWriter (edited March 24, 2000).]
What smithz and RikWriter said.
I have strong moral beliefs. It is the height of arrogance (the first sin, according to the Bible) to assume that those who have different beliefs systems than you are immoral.
JerryM, you seem to be deliberately engaging in conduct opposed to Jesus' injunction in Matthew 7:4-6, where you were specifically commanded not to preach to those who didn't want to hear. I have noticed a tendency for "Christians" to attempt to insinuate theology in other discussions, as you are attempting to do now. In doing so, you are deliberating being disingenous, and acting against the very principles of integrity the Biblical Jesus postulated. Cast out the beam. Tekle...
[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited March 24, 2000).]
I have strong moral beliefs. It is the height of arrogance (the first sin, according to the Bible) to assume that those who have different beliefs systems than you are immoral.
JerryM, you seem to be deliberately engaging in conduct opposed to Jesus' injunction in Matthew 7:4-6, where you were specifically commanded not to preach to those who didn't want to hear. I have noticed a tendency for "Christians" to attempt to insinuate theology in other discussions, as you are attempting to do now. In doing so, you are deliberating being disingenous, and acting against the very principles of integrity the Biblical Jesus postulated. Cast out the beam. Tekle...
[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited March 24, 2000).]
Mike in VA
New member
Interesting thread and much more civil and even than if it occurred on some other boards I've seen. My compliments to all involved.
In my observations, RKBA seems to span a wide and varied group of many persuasions, it's meaningful to most if they care to think about it. As was pointed out, it is more likely to appeal to conservatives than liberals (though even those labels have braod latitude).
I find your comments about the 'Christians' thinking you must be a value-less commie heathen interesting and have experienced the same thing myself on occasion. I have great fun pointing out that there were very robust and profound value systems in place long before JC showed up, and even before the OT was written (really seems to piss 'em off, but they're generally incapable of recognizing the presence of other intelligence in the room anyway). To me, Christianity is just part of a long continutiy in the evolution of human though and values. There are certain recurring themes and values in virtulally all human value systems, and Christianity seems to do a good job of capturing and articulating it for the Western mind. I do not consider myself to be religious, but I am spiritual.
Bottom line for me is that I don't care what lebel you apply to yourself, but I do get pretty discriminating based on how one lives, i.e. consistent with sound values of decency and fairness. I try to live up to my own expectations, and do better some days than others. Pax vobiscum, y'all, and have a nice weekend. M2
In my observations, RKBA seems to span a wide and varied group of many persuasions, it's meaningful to most if they care to think about it. As was pointed out, it is more likely to appeal to conservatives than liberals (though even those labels have braod latitude).
I find your comments about the 'Christians' thinking you must be a value-less commie heathen interesting and have experienced the same thing myself on occasion. I have great fun pointing out that there were very robust and profound value systems in place long before JC showed up, and even before the OT was written (really seems to piss 'em off, but they're generally incapable of recognizing the presence of other intelligence in the room anyway). To me, Christianity is just part of a long continutiy in the evolution of human though and values. There are certain recurring themes and values in virtulally all human value systems, and Christianity seems to do a good job of capturing and articulating it for the Western mind. I do not consider myself to be religious, but I am spiritual.
Bottom line for me is that I don't care what lebel you apply to yourself, but I do get pretty discriminating based on how one lives, i.e. consistent with sound values of decency and fairness. I try to live up to my own expectations, and do better some days than others. Pax vobiscum, y'all, and have a nice weekend. M2
Spectre,
I am almost amazed at your misunderstanding of the Matthew passage to which you referred.
Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Verses 4-5 address the hypocrites who were so critical of other's sins while ignoring their own greater iniquities.
Verse 6 tells us that there are those who are blasphemers and have hardened their hearts so that they are reprobate beyond recovery. They hate the truth and God and therefore, there is no reason to waste our time and energies in trying to continually give them the glorious Gospel.
Most unsaved people don't want to face the fact that in God's eyes that they are not good. However, Christians are commanded to take the Gospel to all mankind. In my case, I have no idea who reading this fits the category that Jesus referred to as "swine."
I do believe that the vast majority who are reading this and are unsaved do not fall in that category. Most do not understand the truth of their condition that man is separated from God by sin due to the sin of Adam. We all partook of that sin and hence are conceived as sinners. We are sinners by nature and by choice. That doesn't mean that the unsaved do nothing good on a person to person basis, but it does mean that nothing they do is accepted by God as merit. There is no way they can purge their sins. Only the sacrificial death of Christ can do that for those who come to him. People don't want to hear or consider that, but it is true nevertheless.
Accordingly, until I know that an individual is a "swine" I will continue to call attention to the truth. Thanks for the opportunity to make this point. Jerry
I am almost amazed at your misunderstanding of the Matthew passage to which you referred.
Matthew 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Verses 4-5 address the hypocrites who were so critical of other's sins while ignoring their own greater iniquities.
Verse 6 tells us that there are those who are blasphemers and have hardened their hearts so that they are reprobate beyond recovery. They hate the truth and God and therefore, there is no reason to waste our time and energies in trying to continually give them the glorious Gospel.
Most unsaved people don't want to face the fact that in God's eyes that they are not good. However, Christians are commanded to take the Gospel to all mankind. In my case, I have no idea who reading this fits the category that Jesus referred to as "swine."
I do believe that the vast majority who are reading this and are unsaved do not fall in that category. Most do not understand the truth of their condition that man is separated from God by sin due to the sin of Adam. We all partook of that sin and hence are conceived as sinners. We are sinners by nature and by choice. That doesn't mean that the unsaved do nothing good on a person to person basis, but it does mean that nothing they do is accepted by God as merit. There is no way they can purge their sins. Only the sacrificial death of Christ can do that for those who come to him. People don't want to hear or consider that, but it is true nevertheless.
Accordingly, until I know that an individual is a "swine" I will continue to call attention to the truth. Thanks for the opportunity to make this point. Jerry
Wow. A lot of good posts that I didn't really have adequate time to read last time (was on my last break).
RVDL, I welcome all with true hearts, regardless of what they claim. Denise, thoughtful post. Thanks.
Great posts from others, as well. I have described myself as an "atheistic Buddhist" before. I will bleed and die with you, if the cause is right. I do agree that many Biblical tenets have the potential for positive social effects, and for those that any religion helps, I am happy for them.
I think wisdom is where you find it. One of my favorite measures of anyone is not their claimed creed, but their actions.
(MATTH 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(MATTH 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(MATTH 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit...
(MATTH 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
I usually only pull the following verses out when unBiblical Christians really torque me:
(MATTH 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(MATTH 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(MATTH 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. and that's the "rest...of the story".
RVDL, I welcome all with true hearts, regardless of what they claim. Denise, thoughtful post. Thanks.
Great posts from others, as well. I have described myself as an "atheistic Buddhist" before. I will bleed and die with you, if the cause is right. I do agree that many Biblical tenets have the potential for positive social effects, and for those that any religion helps, I am happy for them.
I think wisdom is where you find it. One of my favorite measures of anyone is not their claimed creed, but their actions.
(MATTH 7:16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
(MATTH 7:17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
(MATTH 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit...
(MATTH 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
I usually only pull the following verses out when unBiblical Christians really torque me:
(MATTH 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(MATTH 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(MATTH 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. and that's the "rest...of the story".
I would hope that those of us in this self-defense community uphold the concept of religious freedom and that no organized religion or government should tread on the natural rights of any individual.
Another way to look at the relationship between religious folks and gun owners is the way gun owners are caricatured as backwards thinking neanderthals who cling to archaic methods to deal with their existence.
Contemporary people of faith in this secular world share a similar mistreatment. Faith has become equated with naive superstition and an intellectual weakness.
Personally, I do not see science as the enemy of faith. I read Darwin and Dawkins and Hawking, ect., too. Science doesn't take sides in a spiritual debate. Like the agnostic, who only waits for empirical evidence, I have not enough to determine that the universe is a random mechanism. In fact much of modern astronomy and physics imply otherwise. I'll keep searching for the truth "faithfully"
Another way to look at the relationship between religious folks and gun owners is the way gun owners are caricatured as backwards thinking neanderthals who cling to archaic methods to deal with their existence.
Contemporary people of faith in this secular world share a similar mistreatment. Faith has become equated with naive superstition and an intellectual weakness.
Personally, I do not see science as the enemy of faith. I read Darwin and Dawkins and Hawking, ect., too. Science doesn't take sides in a spiritual debate. Like the agnostic, who only waits for empirical evidence, I have not enough to determine that the universe is a random mechanism. In fact much of modern astronomy and physics imply otherwise. I'll keep searching for the truth "faithfully"
Rik,
It truly can be baffling! Fortunately I do not profess to know everything. But, I will stand firmly on what I do know! 
------------------
John/az
"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
It truly can be baffling!
Fortunately I do not profess to know everything. But, I will stand firmly on what I do know! ------------------
John/az
"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
And before him spread out the colors of the rainbow, the difference of the continuum in which he was, for the moment, witness. It occured to him not to prefer one thing over another that did not bid ill, all had a respective place in that which he percieved. It was only when others scorned him for a lack of preference that the sin of not being liked - pride, made itself first known to him. From that day on it was as a poison that sepparated him from the gift of youth that was wonder. And Hegel posted the truth of the 1st and 2nd gifts.
MusclesMcGee
Moderator
The "Age of Enlightment" or "Golden Age"....Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Voltaire, Lock, Hobbes, Bentham, Paine.... has absolutely positively nothing to do with Christianity. Its a reorientation of the Classic philosophers. That is where the whole concept of "Democracy" derives from. Athens ring a bell ?
The Constitution, our primary law, is not grounded and founded in the teachings of the bible. Its based on philosophy, not theology. Sorry.
The Constitution, our primary law, is not grounded and founded in the teachings of the bible. Its based on philosophy, not theology. Sorry.
Quote: "it is my impression that the majority of people in the pro-gun movement are Christian. Is this true?"
My answer is no. Any religion or group who are extremist or fight for something they believe in that it can only be achieve by the point of Gun are all active in pro-gun movement.
If it comes to religion, I've been babtized with many kinds of religions to name a few, Catholic, Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ), Islam, Born Again and almost in mormons. But what I can say, we all die and no body knows who is God but it is all lies in faith. If you have faith in God (Who He Is) then that is personal faith. But with my many honeymoon of several religions, see and intermingle to its leaders, I can say that as a whole we are all in the same boat. It is just a matter of different way of worshipping or praying, traditions and culture. But we have the same God only in different names and we differ in honoring HIM.
Bible, Torah, Qur'an (koran), the 7 Books of Mormons (by Smith), all these books of faith talks about of God, Jesus, Mary, the prophets, saints etc. It has only One subject and one objective (life after death)are being discussed by all religions.
I would like to add that all religions are good and non will say to their followers to do bad, but the extremist or fanatics are dangerous one for they are blind followers of their leaders (they just follow what their leader will tell them do do without using their own judgement if it is righ or wrong to do such things). I've been visited by mormons more than a month and we keep discussing (answers and questions), later one they were disgusted because they told that it has been a monththat they are explaining me about mormons and still I did not embrace. They follow a sequence which they lectured and there are 2 or three items from it that it may only be revealed to you at the their temple once you will embrace the faith.
The same thing to the Church of Christ, if they baptized you by submersion, and asked if you see god if they immerse you in the water. Of course I cannot see God but for the sake of fiishing the baptism I just yes, its all foolishness. The same with other religions they criticise one another but they are talking the same subject.
Religion is made to control people not for salvation. Everything is on faith to believe on something else. Atheist has god also for they believe on a supreme being.
If you aske me now what is my faith. Well, I may say I am a believer in the existence of an Almighty Creator of everything and the best religion forme is "good human relations" with disregards of any sect. Whatever your religion now, stay on it and do good to every one but be aware to punish the offender.
Quote: "It was my assumption, until now, that the pro-civil-rights (progun) movement was made up of people of different religions. Was I mistaken?"
You are right, it composed of the various sects.
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 25, 2000).]
My answer is no. Any religion or group who are extremist or fight for something they believe in that it can only be achieve by the point of Gun are all active in pro-gun movement.
If it comes to religion, I've been babtized with many kinds of religions to name a few, Catholic, Iglesia ni Cristo (Church of Christ), Islam, Born Again and almost in mormons. But what I can say, we all die and no body knows who is God but it is all lies in faith. If you have faith in God (Who He Is) then that is personal faith. But with my many honeymoon of several religions, see and intermingle to its leaders, I can say that as a whole we are all in the same boat. It is just a matter of different way of worshipping or praying, traditions and culture. But we have the same God only in different names and we differ in honoring HIM.
Bible, Torah, Qur'an (koran), the 7 Books of Mormons (by Smith), all these books of faith talks about of God, Jesus, Mary, the prophets, saints etc. It has only One subject and one objective (life after death)are being discussed by all religions.
I would like to add that all religions are good and non will say to their followers to do bad, but the extremist or fanatics are dangerous one for they are blind followers of their leaders (they just follow what their leader will tell them do do without using their own judgement if it is righ or wrong to do such things). I've been visited by mormons more than a month and we keep discussing (answers and questions), later one they were disgusted because they told that it has been a monththat they are explaining me about mormons and still I did not embrace. They follow a sequence which they lectured and there are 2 or three items from it that it may only be revealed to you at the their temple once you will embrace the faith.
The same thing to the Church of Christ, if they baptized you by submersion, and asked if you see god if they immerse you in the water. Of course I cannot see God but for the sake of fiishing the baptism I just yes, its all foolishness. The same with other religions they criticise one another but they are talking the same subject.
Religion is made to control people not for salvation. Everything is on faith to believe on something else. Atheist has god also for they believe on a supreme being.
If you aske me now what is my faith. Well, I may say I am a believer in the existence of an Almighty Creator of everything and the best religion forme is "good human relations" with disregards of any sect. Whatever your religion now, stay on it and do good to every one but be aware to punish the offender.
Quote: "It was my assumption, until now, that the pro-civil-rights (progun) movement was made up of people of different religions. Was I mistaken?"
You are right, it composed of the various sects.
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 25, 2000).]
The more this nation trys to distance itself from God the more we self destruct. I see a pattern here. America is unique in world history as the only nation to declare that the people have the God-given right to self government. Those who fear too much "Christian" influence in todays government should take great comfort in the present circumstances, a God-less administration seeking to disarm us for our own good. Those "Christian" groups who support disarmament o are trolls who lack any understanding of the truth as revealed in the Bible. As a born- again believer in Jesus, I support the Constitution as it is written. Which is more frightening, an armed population of people constrained by the precepts of God or any alternative, armed or not?
FNG, you couldn't be more wrong. As a matter of FACT, there are more professing Christians in the US today than ever before. There are more people who believe in God than ever before, hell, there are even more people that believe in Biblical Creationism NOW than there were in the 1950s (when everything was supposedly so much better).
The anti-gunners are Christians. Of course now you'll say they aren't TRUE Christians, an argument about as empty as any I have ever heard...
The anti-gunners are Christians. Of course now you'll say they aren't TRUE Christians, an argument about as empty as any I have ever heard...
Rik,
I would say the "anti's" call themselves Christians. There is a difference. I'm agnostic, but I hope to be fairly christlike, capeche?
Religion has nothing to do w/ peace. Otherwise, the Middle Ages would have never had the Crusades, known for wanton slaughter and rapine...
I would say the "anti's" call themselves Christians. There is a difference. I'm agnostic, but I hope to be fairly christlike, capeche?
Religion has nothing to do w/ peace. Otherwise, the Middle Ages would have never had the Crusades, known for wanton slaughter and rapine...
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