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Zak Smith

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I understand that Christians are very sensitive about government control and intrusion into their lives. And almost by definition, they have (.. or should ..) clearly defined moral parameters, and an idea of good and evil.

Being active on many of our favorite forums (TFL, glocktalk, ar15.com, TRT), listening to American Freedom Network, and participating in many of the local TRT events, it is my impression that the majority of people in the pro-gun movement are Christian. Is this true?

I'm an atheist (or agnostic, depending on your epistemology). While car-pooling to one of the TRT events with two fellows from the meeting place, one of them was incredulous that an atheist could have any strong views on the guns, government, Constitution, or even morality! While I ignored the comtempt in his language, voice, and demeanor, it was clear he thought I was a communist sheep! Needless to say, I was quite surprised at his reaction.

It was my assumption, until now, that the pro-civil-rights (progun) movement was made up of people of different religions. Was I mistaken?

I do know, however, that if I were on the "other side", any pro-gun arguments based on "My God-Given Right" would be ignored completely. An argument based on the truth of an assumption which has been debated thousands of years with no definitive proof either way is not a good strategy IMHO, and would not convince me.

-z

p.s. To avoid any flames: I have nothing against Christians. Some of the best (and worst) people I have known are. I am pro-Constitution, anti-communist, anti-socialism, pro-capitalism, pro-freedom, pro-responsibility, and generally libertarian. And I like guns.
 
Smith, I know exactly how you feel. Too many times we bring other baggage into the fight to preserve the constitution and the second amendment. We want to drag abortion, homosexuality, religion and a thousand other things into the RKBA. I am personally a libertarian-leaning nontheistic agnostic, but I am forced to hold my nose and vote for religious right GOP candidates because my RKBA is the most important thing IMHO, the lynchpin that the rest of the Bill of Rights hangs on.
Yet too many people who purport to be interested in the RKBA would shun me because I don't agree with their religion or politics.
If we are going to win this war to preserve our rights, we need a bigger tent.
 
Rik - I know what you mean about "holding your nose and voting for Republicans." From now until it ceases to be an issue, I will vote for Pro-RKBA candidates only, however it takes a lot to swallow the religious-morality rhetoric espoused by the Reps, which, IMO, has no place in government.

This presidential race has surprised me lots too: each candidate claiming his personal salvation in Christ, and then quibbling about one subset of Christianity vs. another! This seems like a really good way to alienate ethnic and religious minorities!

All that said, I would have voted for Dr. Alan Keys, if he were viable. ;-) I just love those constitutionalists.

[This message has been edited by smithz (edited March 23, 2000).]
 
smithz,
I am a dedicated Christian, a fundamental, independent, Baptist. Since I believe with all my heart that the Bible is the Word of God, I would wish you and all persons would become Christians through faith in Christ. I have been given a command to spread the Gospel of Christ, and I do so as the opportunity arises. However, God has chosen not to force anyone to come to Christ (be born again) against his will. I, therefore, would greatly object to any law that would require you to profess faith in Him. Your choice in that matter is between you and God and not between you and me. Undoubtedly, when moral issues (abortion, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, etc.) are discussed you and I will disagree on many of them. I hold the Bible to be the ultimate authority and law whereas you don't. Service to Christ is the center and top priority of my life and not RKBA, though I give high priority to that right. In the meantime we can exchange information, and fight for RKBA. When we disagree we can do it in a civil manner without personal insults. I still wish you would be saved through faith in Christ, but I say again, that is between you and God. If you ever have any questions I would gladly attempt to answer them. Jerry
 
I am an orthodox jew living in the Indiana. I carry my gun to synagogue, and I wear it out b/c I work in a pawnshop and thats how I wear it. When I first started, I would get looks, but after the shootings of jews, some of whom I knew, chicago, they don't seem to mind. I would say it is not the case of the reformed jews, who are mostly liberal and are jewish in name only.
I wear my jpfo shirt with hitler on it raising his hand in favor of gun control, and they kind of got the point. Little by little, they are starting to come around.
I wouldn't say I am the norm, because I only know of 4 other people in my synagogue who have guns and they are not as vocal as I am. My rabbi always says to me he feels safer whenever I come to services, because he knows he is protected. I asked him what happens when I don't make, as to imply for him to get one, he just asked me to come more often.

Thank g-d for the jpfo!
 
Thanks for the offer of enlightenment, Jerry. My Christian friends have tried in the past, but were not able to satisfy my objections.
I'm glad you respect my decision, and aren't trying to convert me. ;-)

Jerry & Rik - Yes, we definitely have to include as many different people in the RKBA fight as we can. I'm sure many minorities (ethnic, sexual, etc) can relate to the need for self-defense. AND it can only improve our public image, which I think will be very important to winning.

Hoosierboy - I agree, the JPFO is doing good work, and I've ordered a bunch of their "military-grade" propaganda.

-z
 
So what do you say about me? I'm a Mormon, am I into Religion, not really, and I object to being lumped in with those who believe religion is more important than Faith in the Heavenly Father, and Our Savior Jesus Christ.
Must you Believe, for me to respect you as a person, no. But it seems that because I do Believe in God. I'm some foul smelling creature that it pains you to be around. We all have the freedom to choose our own path, it doesn't matter to me if you believe that is Natural law or God's law.
we are brothers and sisters in a Cause. Because the cause is RIGHT and JUST. If you can't be around me without holding your nose, then you are no better that the "professed Christian" that believes all Agnostics and Athiests are Commies.
I amy attempt to show you why I believe, but I will never hold a gun to your head, to force you to profess belief, nor hold my nose while you are around.

Okay Missonary Mode OFF ;)
 
I don't care what religion you are, What color you are, Who you sleep with or even what you do on your own time. But try to take my guns and we have a problem.
I have friends from every group you can think of. White, black, Gay and lesbians. Police officers. You name it I know them I bet. And to this I say. WHO CARES. So you are Agnostic, or Atheist. (There is a difference). Hell I am a Chatholic Druid, (yes it is possible) We can never all agree on everyting. And that is the great thing about this country, we don't have to. We can disagree. The important part is that we accept that others have different views that we do. THat is the whole problem that we, as gun owners, are in. Other people can not accept that we choose to have sothing that do not want. It is no different that Racial intolerance or flat out Discrimination.
 
The pro gun movement is not Christian based, it is conservative based. The anti gun movement is not Christain based, it is liberal based. BOTH are dominated by Christians. It is an American demographics thing. I'm Budhist (and obviously pro gun), not that it matters.

Erik
 
Ditto on what Kev said. I think no matter what you are or what you are not, we all have one thing in common and that is to protect ourselves and our families.

------------------
Sandys' Homepage
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
 
SmithZ - as a practicing aethiest myself, I know exactly where you're coming from.

I have found that less religious people are proportionally more likly to be aggressive supporters of RKBA, my theory being that more religious types have many other issues to take issue with. I can be a single issue voter, while a Christian has other, bigger (for them) issues that need to be dealt with, too.

By the way, great job at the last match.

A libertarian holding my nose and voting Republican here, too...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevinw:
I don't care what religion you are, What color you are, Who you sleep with or even what you do on your own time. But try to take my guns and we have a problem.[/quote] Couldn't have said it better myself. The problem I find with a lot of people is the
“I’m forgiven” phrase. More and more people seem to think; “hey I go to church
so God forgives me. Once or twice a week in church and I can feel good about anything I do”!---- Anything?---- Well guys and gals it doesn’t work that way.
 
Smithz.... I am a Friend (The Society of Friends).... you said "I understand that Christians are very sensitive about government control and intrusion into their lives". .... well.. that tenent has been a major cornerstone of my religion since the 1600's (under George Fox)...

It matters not that you consider yourself an Athiest/Agnostic/Jew/Catholic etc.. etc.. but that your believe in and support the Constitution ..... Erik, IMHO, says it all....

[This message has been edited by CHEMNCO917 (edited March 24, 2000).]
 
Smith, you are correct. I too am agnostic but with strong views on freedoms and morality. It has been my observation that I'm far more moral, principled, etc., than the average Okie, and the vast majority of Okies go to church and believe in God - that's just an observation; I'm not saying I'm more moral than the average true Christian who believes in his faith and takes it seriously. However, I do think that generally, Christian ideals, IF practiced, are good for society. In fact, I would say I'm pro-Christianity - I have voted for Repubs many times. I know and like many Christians, and a few of other faiths. Like the man said above, the problem is when you mess with my Constitutional rights, be it the second, first, fourth, tenth, or another amendment. I practice many Christian values simply because I find them to be a good way of getting along in society and living a fulfilling life, not because they're God-mandated. I do believe the separation of church and state is important, and take issue with religious leaders who would censor speech because it offends their religious sensibilities. Pro-freedom people are from all walks of like. Pro-gunnies don't have to be Christian any more than we have to be white supremacists or any other type for that matter.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited March 24, 2000).]
 
Frankly, I don't have the faith to be an athiest! :D

Everything has a source...

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
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