Regarding carry capacity.

Maddening

This thread is maddening!! I cannot for the life of me understand the argument that carrying a 5 shot weapon is somehow inherently smarter than a higher cap weapon. The marginal cost (in weight, effort, size, money etc.) of carrying the extral ammo is virtually nil. The potential benefit is orders of magnitude larger than said miniscule cost (even if the probability of realizing that benefit is also miniscule). Given the stakes (your life, loved ones' etc.) it seems silly [if not negligent] to argue that fewer shots is better than more shots.

If I could, with any certainty, tell you why I might need XX rounds, I could certainly avoid that situation and therefore need 0 rounds (making the case for carrying AT ALL null and void). But I cannot, with any certsainty, tell you when, where, or how many rounds I will need. Given that uncertainty it seems best to be prepared for the worst.

Note that I am not criticizing one's choice NOT to carry extra ammo, I am criticizing the argument that it is a superior strategy to carrying extra. It is demonstrably not: There is no situation you can handle with 5 shots that I will be prevented from handling because of my higher capacity. There are situations I can handle with my higher capacity that you cannot handle with 5 shots.
 
Someone made an interesting observation, which was that, hey, 20 rounds might not be enough, either. At some point, you've got to draw the line at what you can carry comfortably. Tempting as it is to some of you to carry a combat knife, BUG, and regular CCW, plus a rifle on your back and two extra mags for all of them, it's just not going to be a reasonable option for day to day usage unless your job is "prosecute the war in Iraq or Afghanistan".

Much as I hate to say it, if you find yourself in a situation where 10-15 rounds isn't enough, you're almost certainly screwed even if you had reloads.
 
Much as I hate to say it, if you find yourself in a situation where 10-15 rounds isn't enough, you're almost certainly screwed even if you had reloads.
Click to expand...

If you find yourself in a situation where you need 1 round, you may very well be screwed...so maybe leaving the gun at home is best?

All else equal, more rounds are better than fewer rounds. Yes, I am not going to wear a tactical vest and carry 12 magazines, but if I have a choice between 2 guns of similar size, why would I choose the one with fewer rounds (again - all else equal)?
 
If you find yourself in a situation where you need 1 round, you may very well be screwed...so maybe leaving the gun at home is best?
Click to expand...
If you can't tell the difference between the kind of situation that requires five rounds to be fired and the kind of situation that requires fifty, I'm really not sure what to say to you. But just to give an example: if you get jumped by a dozen gang members, it's probably not going to matter if you've got 15 or 50 rounds.

All else equal, more rounds are better than fewer rounds. Yes, I am not going to wear a tactical vest and carry 12 magazines, but if I have a choice between 2 guns of similar size, why would I choose the one with fewer rounds (again - all else equal)?
Click to expand...
Except all things aren't equal. Smaller capacities at least imply a smaller gun, and those have some of their own advantages in terms of concealment and "carry-ability", if I could invent a word. The bigger the gun, the less likely someone is to carry it on a regular basis.
 
If you can't tell the difference between the kind of situation that requires five rounds to be fired and the kind of situation that requires fifty
Click to expand...

I can't tell which situation I'm going to get into. Like I said, If I knew, I wouldn't get into it. It is scary that you think you know. More rounds isn't only for more BGs. Could be a malfunction, could be that you're simply pinned down and have no escape. Who knows? I'd rather have 18 rounds left in my gun and not need them then only have 5 and wish I had 6.

Except all things aren't equal. Smaller capacities at least imply a smaller gun, and those have some of their own advantages in terms of concealment and "carry-ability", if I could invent a word. The bigger the gun, the less likely someone is to carry it on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

I understand (and I invent words all the time! :D)...I'll put it to you this way: Why carry a 6 or 7 shot SW686 when you can carry a 19+1 XDm (assuming you are comfortable with both and can shoot both well)? Sizes are similar, unloaded weight is advantage XDm. I understand that extra ammo = extra weight, but I've already decided to carry around an extra 2lbs, what's a few more bullets, really? I cannot compare the loaded XDm to a Scandium snub-nose .38 or a seecamp - I understand that tradeoff, and I make that tradeoff myself (pocket carry an LCR when necessary).

There is no 1 right answer for what to carry, but the maxim that "more is better" (relative to capacity) should be applied when weighing the choices.
 
Ladies and Gentleman, you carry a spare magazine not solely for the reason that you might be attacked by a mob of people and will need all of the ammo during the fight.

You also carry a spare magazine because your primary magazine might be ejected during an attack where the enemy is able to press your magazine release and your magazine drops to the floor.

For instance, in a fight that is within zero distance between you and the attacker (or in a retention scenario), the attacker might/will try and wrestle your firearm away.

If he/she or you manages to accidently press the mag release, your better have a backup to reload with.

if not, your gun is simply a paperweight or a club.

So, to review...
You carry a spare magazine for 2 reasons:
1) Extra ammunition in case the fight is prolonged or you need to engage multiple attackers (and yes, in a combat situation, 18 rounds in a glock goes real fast)
2) In case your primary magazine fails or is ejected during a close engagement



Ben Goldstein
Head Instructor

Israeli Protective Service LLC
&
IsraeliCombatTraining.com

www.israeliprotectiveservice.com

www.israelicombattraining.com
 
I agree that more rounds is better, all else being equal.

On the choices, I MIGHT take a 686 4" barrel (with speed loaders) and 180grains of lead semi-wad cutter hollow point OVER a grip safety XD. If there's more than six (with guns themselves), you're likely gonna take some hits. But the ones in front .... crazy devastating injuries.
 
One should carry what one feels necessary.

Improbable, Joe? Perhaps one doesn't wish to play, but the 'game' may find him, nevertheless. Thus, the 'stakes' can be high, even where one makes all the decisions necessary to minimize the 'odds' of risk.

Folks wouldn't be here, if they thought a 'call for back-up' were, in all cases, so readily available, and .... timely. (Fortunately, they needn't make you understand before proceeding to decide what's best for them.)
Click to expand...
:D

The minute that you have to fight off an entire gang of criminals by yourself, you email me and let me know, OK?
 
I MIGHT take a 686 4" barrel (with speed loaders) and 180grains of lead semi-wad cutter hollow point OVER a grip safety XD. If there's more than six (with guns themselves), you're likely gonna take some hits.
Click to expand...

Or you could use 19+1 124g +P JHPs and just stop them all!!! :D
 
Sweet baby Jebus. I can't believe y'all are arguing over this. Carry what you want, with however many reloads/spare magazines you want/can carry. How hard is that?
 
The gang of people is a rare event - it is a Black Swan event - but it can happen as can a high intensity gun fight.

Reginald Denney - a one in a million event but it happened to him.

Being in a mall rampage as the officer was in Omaha with limited ammo.

Being in a school shooting with more than one attacker (Columbine and Jonesboro) with the fight being at some distance.

Having a car full of racists, hooligans, or whatever decide to come for you. Seen that twice.

So rather than dismiss the risk - it is better to say that it is a small risk and you choose to not to worry about that one. But to say, it can't happen is foolish.

Also, it is not hard with modern equipment to carry a semi with an extra mag or two and be comfortable.

Thus, the odds argument as presented here is usually a misinterpretation of statistics and risk analysis. You set a reasonable criterion and stick with it.

The reasonable level is usually a primary and a reload. Dress can suggest the J frame or a speed loader but it's not hard to do a reasonable semi and a mag.

You probably will never need any of these.
 
You always carry the spare for the reasons I listed. You do not "simply carry whatever you want" as this will lead you to lazyness and you will not end up carrying a spare magazine.
"2 is 1 and 1 is none"

You must be disciplined and carry for the worst case (realistic worst case) scenario.
This does not mean (obviously) that you walk around with a level III vest on, full combat load and an M203. Rather, you carry for the event that you will have to fend off a gang or an active shooter that is better equipped than you.
 
You always carry the spare for the reasons I listed. You do not "simply carry whatever you want" as this will lead you to lazyness and you will not end up carrying a spare magazine.
"2 is 1 and 1 is none"
Click to expand...
Don't recite dogma as established fact. Of course it's better to have a spare magazine, but suggesting that not having one is equivalent to having no firearm whatsoever is ludicrous.
 
It is if your Mag malfunctions. But I always dress for the worse case scenario.
Click to expand...
For the record, I carry four magazines whenever possible, so obviously that is my own personal bias as well - but I object to the inference that a firearm without a reload is equivalent to no firearm at all.
 
Also, a spare mag for mag-related 'failures'. (armsmaster270 and Mr. Goldstein beat me to it, but it's probably been mentioned, can't even remember .... :( .... :D)

What I don't understand is how one comes up with a reason NOT to carry an extra mag (where one already has decided to wear from 6-7 oz. up to and above 30-40 oz. of rectangle, and where an extra magazine is only an additional fraction of that volume and weight) OR a speed loader, strip, or some 'loose change' (in the case of revolvers).

What other items or reasons would take precedence? A flashlight? A candy-bar? A sippy cup? Not wanting to look fat in those pants?

(This thread's been done so many, many times. Next time, I'll let it digress and die a natural death.)
 
Last edited:
"Don't recite dogma as established fact. Of course it's better to have a spare magazine, but suggesting that not having one is equivalent to having no firearm whatsoever is ludicrous"
Click to expand...

ludicrous is a strong word.

A person who devotes his life to the "combat mindset" and makes every effort to be ready for when the inevitable violent confrontation occurs (it might never happen but it might also happen as soon as you step outside your door) will automatically undertstand the concept of "2 is 1 and 1 is none".

It is not a ridicule to someone who chooses to carry a pistol with no spare magazine. It is simply a fact that said person is making a conscious decision to NOT carry something that can be absolutely vital to his life when the need arises. That person is not truly in the zone necessary to overcome the infamous Mr. Murphy when his ugly head arises.

Instead of being absolutley ready and confident that he can handle the situation if his magazine gets ejected from his firearm or he is attacked by multiple armed assailents or is faced with an aggressive active shooter armed with an AR15 and 10 magazines, he is 'OK' with the bare minimum needed to make him feel comfortable in a low intensity fast attack scenario.

He knows all of the statistics and reads over and over again how "most gunfights last a few seconds" and the "majority of the time the person attacked never changes his magazine due to running out of ammunition from his primary magazine."

To this person I say "Please come and hear the reasons why we always carry a spare magazine." This person needs to make a decision right now.

Question: Why are you carrying a firearm?

Answer: To protect myself and my family from violent life threatining attack

Question: What if you are attacked from close range/point zero and your attacker, while grabbing for your firearm to take it away from you, manages to eject your magazine from your firearm?

Answer: I better have the ability to make my firearm useful and the only way this will happen is if I am able to reload it with a spare magazine.

The answer is obvious to those that care to see it. To those with a true real world combat mindset, the answer is plain as day.

Bottom line: You are either ready for the Unexpected worst case scenario or you are not.

I apologize for the long post but this is a very important aspect to daily carry that I feel folks need to take more seriously.

I promised myself that my last words of my life will never be "I wish I had more ammo" or "I wish I was carrying my pistol on me today."
 
Be the "firstest" with the "mostest" - General Nathan Bedford Forrest

Perhaps we need to consider being the "firstest" and "mostest" with ADEE?

Talking with The Indians

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2005/03_StudyDay.htm

Avoid, Disengage, Escape and Example

Yes, wear the darn gun!
Just perhaps not everything defaults to gun, or is best handled by gun or one is going to be able to have gun.
Keeping in mind NPEs (non permissive [weapon] environments).

If you are not where trouble is in the "firstest" place, disengage using interpersonal and social skills "firstest"/ "mostest" , escape "firstest /mostest" keeping in mind "tailgunners" , then vacate the venue thus evading 'firstest/mostest", then the threat was stopped, without having to go to gun.

Being the realist I am, handguns are not magic talismans, no matter what or caliber they are, or type of ammunition they are using.
Anything mechanical, can and will break, and will do so at the worst possible moment.
There will always be more VCAs than one can have ammunition contained in a firearm and have spare ammunition for.


Case in point.
Three VCAs, two with visible guns and one of these two pointed a gun at me just as I pulled into a parking place.

This incident exploded the instant I pulled in to park.

I have a CCW, with 10 rounds, two spare mags, and that day I had a shotgun behind the seat, as I had been out and about running errands, and picking up/delivering this shotgun if you will was with me.

I backed up the truck, got distance, took cover, observed, and took notes on my hand with pen.
Then after the threats left, I made sure the scene was kept clean (not disturbed) , everyone was alright, until officers arrived, then I had pertinent information and shared 'scripts, license tags, and everything else.

Others were in storefronts , or on the sidewalk just gawking while all this played out.







Mister Goldstein, excellent post sir!
 
Last edited:
Glenn E. Meyer said:
That's a misuse of the term 'insignificant' - standards for statistical significance imply that you make an error at a rate that is usually with a p = .05, .01 or even .001.
Click to expand...

It's only a misuse if the percentage of needing a reload rises above that threshold. Admittedly, I cannot show that it doesn't rise above that level but I've heard of virtually no civilians incidents that actually REQUIRED a reload. Just because someone DID reload doesn't mean they NEEDED a reload. They may have fired 10 shots when 1 would have done, or any number of other possibilities.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top