Reduced velocity .380 FMJ for self-defense
- Thread starter Carmady
- Start date
Bill DeShivs
New member
That's not two holes. It's one hole all the way through.
I always figured two holes (or one all the way through) was better than a bullet that didn't get to where it was needed to go.
I think that overpenetration is over hyped. I think that complete penetration is adequate penetration. I'm not a cop, My risks are different than a police department, especially a large metro department where there may be dozens of officer involved shootings every year. Many happening in places where there are people in literally every direction, up, down, and sideways. If you have those concerns, you should do what you think appropriate. I have different concerns.
You can always handload and reduce the velocity of your .380 if you want, and its a concern to you. Let us know how your semi auto works when you do that, too, will ya?
I think that overpenetration is over hyped. I think that complete penetration is adequate penetration. I'm not a cop, My risks are different than a police department, especially a large metro department where there may be dozens of officer involved shootings every year. Many happening in places where there are people in literally every direction, up, down, and sideways. If you have those concerns, you should do what you think appropriate. I have different concerns.
You can always handload and reduce the velocity of your .380 if you want, and its a concern to you. Let us know how your semi auto works when you do that, too, will ya?
I gotta stop watching these Jello shooters on youtube.
.36 caliber bullets have been killing people for over 150 years.
It looks like this over penetration dilemma is blown way out of proportion.
Solution...HP's that cost a lot more (so what if they don't expand).
A picture is worth a thousand words. Thank YOU.
.36 caliber bullets have been killing people for over 150 years.
It looks like this over penetration dilemma is blown way out of proportion.
Solution...HP's that cost a lot more (so what if they don't expand).
A picture is worth a thousand words. Thank YOU.
Well, yeah it had something to do with the Miami shootout. That shootout started a sort of panic within the FBI that led to some good results and better defensive ammo. But it wasn't just that one shot they looked at. They looked at their many years of shooting folks and how the bullets acted and where they hit. So they decided that they needed a bullet that could penetrate and expand 12-16" into a person (10% ballistic gel in their tests) even after passing through various barriers (auto windshields, drywall, heavy clothing, etc.) They also figured that over 18" was too much penetration.
They settled on those figures and requirements for their duty ammo knowing, based on experience, that often bullets travel at an angle into a body and they have to hit a vital organ to be effective. Someone may say that 12" will go right through most folks chests. But the bullet will hit at an angle at a fella crouched behind cover or concealment or crawling towards you.
It wasn't just the FBI that got involved in the debates and studies that went on during those years.
tipoc
They settled on those figures and requirements for their duty ammo knowing, based on experience, that often bullets travel at an angle into a body and they have to hit a vital organ to be effective. Someone may say that 12" will go right through most folks chests. But the bullet will hit at an angle at a fella crouched behind cover or concealment or crawling towards you.
It wasn't just the FBI that got involved in the debates and studies that went on during those years.
tipoc
Here is a test done by poster 5pins using the Fiochhi ammo loaded with XTP bullets. In bare gel it did OK but add a barrier and its just like a FMJ round. To its credit the Fiocchi ammo is priced very reasonably. Around $16 IIRC.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6767424#post6767424
If you look at the velocity from a Ruger LCP with 2.75" barrel the velocity is an average of 800fps. I don't think this round needs a reduced speed.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6767424#post6767424
If you look at the velocity from a Ruger LCP with 2.75" barrel the velocity is an average of 800fps. I don't think this round needs a reduced speed.
Overpenetration is greatly exaggerated IMHO. Jeff Cooper advocated the 45 ACP with FMJ, said it worked for him-"Why mess with trick bullets in a small bore ?" Conversely Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand and Countess Sophie Chotek would haves something to say about the effective of the 32ACP/380 FMJ bullet.
The initial premise was (assuming that .380 FMJ really does over penetrate all the time, as claimed on youtube) to simply slow them down a little, and maybe make them with a heavier bullet, to get a better performing, more reliable, and much less expensive defensive round than the high-dollar hyped up super duper HP ammo.
It seemed like a good idea at the time.
The flaw in this idea is the assumption that slowing down the bullet "a little" (how much is a little??) and upping the weight "a little" would result in a better performing, more reliable, and much less expensive round.
It does not.
Reducing the velocity reduces the energy, and the penetration, and increases the drop (though seldom a concern with the .380 round.
Also reducing the energy means there is less energy available to expand the bullet. Going to a heavier bullet means you will ALSO be reducing the velocity, and while you do gain a little bit from the momentum of the heavier slug I don't think it balances out, particularly in the .380.
why would you think a bullet that strikes with less energy, doesn't penetrate as much, and is unlikely to expand as much would be a "better performing, more reliable" round? As to less expensive? A slight reduction in the already small volume of powder in a .380 won't make the round significantly less expensive.
Knowing the way the market it, IF an ammo maker were to make "low penetration loads" they would probably charge MORE than standard ammo!
The key part of the title is "FMJ." My idea was not to expand the FMJ, but to help to prevent it from over penetration (which is doesn't according to TFL) by reducing the velocity, and/or increasing the weight of the bullet .
Again, I was thinking of a FMJ that penetrates enough to be effective, but doesn't over penetrate (as claimed on youtube) and become a danger to innocent by-standers. "Sources I read" claim that FMJ's are typically more reliable than HP's when it comes to feeding. That's why I think a non-expanding FMJ would be more reliable and better performing than a HP which delivers iffy performance.
I gave no consideration to the powder charge as a reduction in production/retail cost. I'm under the impression that the majority of HP SD ammo has a high price tag due to the hi-tech projectile. So, I drew the conclusion that a FMJ round would be less expensive to produce due the simplicity of the projectile alone.
buck460XVR
New member
My SD handloads for .380ACP is a Nosler 115gr JHP that runs about 850FPS using PowerPistol. It's a heavier than standard bullet, traveling at a velocity lower than most factory 90 grainers. Doubt if it would expand much, but it sure is accurate. I am confident it will do the job as well as most boutique ammo, if I do my part. No .380 ammo is going to make up for poor shooting, and .380 ball will empty a pumping heart just as fast as a .380 JHP. Over penetration is not just after hitting the BG. Over penetration can be your kid's bedroom wall behind the BG you just missed.
Folks should use knowledge and experience to decide what works best for them for SD. They need to know the possible scenarios they will encounter and the mindset of the BGs they are protecting themselves from. Cops, SWAT teams and other LEOs scenarios are different than the average civilian SD shoot. We are preyed on by cowards wanting an easy victim. Most of them are going to scream and run in the other direction like a little girl, regardless of how ugly, or the approximate size of the hole that just appeared in their chest.
Folks need to use what they are confident in and what they are proficient with when it comes to their SD. It's their life they may be saving.
Folks should use knowledge and experience to decide what works best for them for SD. They need to know the possible scenarios they will encounter and the mindset of the BGs they are protecting themselves from. Cops, SWAT teams and other LEOs scenarios are different than the average civilian SD shoot. We are preyed on by cowards wanting an easy victim. Most of them are going to scream and run in the other direction like a little girl, regardless of how ugly, or the approximate size of the hole that just appeared in their chest.
Folks need to use what they are confident in and what they are proficient with when it comes to their SD. It's their life they may be saving.
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OK, I understand your reasoning. Now, consider this,
There is no way to make a bullet that only goes "Far enough and no farther".
It is simply NOT POSSIBLE. You can make a load that is just perfect in situation A, but in B through Z it will either go too far, or worse, not go far enough!
Anyone who tell you other wise is either selling something (that won't work as claimed) or just outright lying, for the fun of it.
As far as FMJ being more reliable feeding than JHP, this is true in MACRO. When you look at all the different guns and all the different kinds of ammo, you will find fewer feeding failures with FMJ. OVERALL.
Any specific individual gun can feed either, or both equally flawlessly or flawed. The only way to be sure is to test SPECIFIC ammo in a SPECIFIC gun.
In a way its like saying, Looking at the over all fleet, Fords get better gas mileage than Chevys. (illustration only)
AVERAGES are just averages, and don't guarantee that the gun and ammo in your hands will be average, or something else.
He sure was. Just wait until the marketing wizards introduce
SEASONAL SELF-DEFENSE AMMO
The winter ammo will be advertised as hotter to ensure top performance after passing through heavy clothing.
The summer ammo will be advertised as "optimized for light clothing" to reduce the dangers of over penetration.
But what they won't tell you is the ammo is all the same, just different boxes and different colored material stuffed in the hollow tips.
John Doe won't know, so he'll buy them both.
How many boxes can I put you down for?
People are giving the OP a bit of a hard time about calling for reduced power .380, however in many ways that is what we have today with the popularity of 2.75 inch-barreled pocket pistols compared to the 3.25-3.75 inch fixed barreled blowback .380s that were the norm in the past. If there was ever an over-penetration issue with .380, it has likely been mitigated by today’s short barrel reduction in velocity.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Just to clarify the math a bit, the premise was to go with a heavier bullet at a reduced velocity. You can actually get more energy from a heavier bullet at a slower velocity than a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. For example, a 90 gr bullet at 975 fps will yield 190 ft lbs versus a 100 gr. bullet at 950 fps that will yield 200 ft lbs.
So reducing the velocity does not necessarily mean that there will be a reduction in energy.