Recent Situation

Without overanalyzing, let me just say that no way would I trust my life to a can of OC spray if I had TWO guys intent on beating me to a viscous reddish paste, then using the spray as a seasoning.

Nor will I do myself or my family the disservice of passively yielding to their demands. How do I know that if I give them what they want, they won't decide to beat me within an inch of my life, or stab me in both eyes, just for drill?

If there are multiple assailants with the intention of doing me harm, whether it be with their fists or bats, they will be met with the presentation of deadly force, then the use of deadly force if they persist. When it comes to my life, or my loved ones, I will not be half @$$ in my approach. I intend to stay in this world for as long as possible.

By the way, sorry to hear about what happened to your neighbor. Hope he's okay.
 
Fwiw.....

My CHL instructor (a Montgomery County constable, many years a LEO) taught us that you can indeed use deadly force to protect your property...then said that personally, he would not shoot someone who was, say, stealing his truck from his driveway. IOW, where there's no danger to him. The guy on the bike though, is in a different sort of situation. Whether he should have stopped or not, at the point where he is facing down the bad guys, it is more prudent to draw your weapon than to simply hand over the bike.

My instructor also told us that it certainly IS ok to draw without firing; if a command will stop the threat to you ("drop the gun", "lay down on the ground and don't move" or whatever) then you have saved lives, have not had to take a life, and have kept your bike. So if biker had pulled his gun, said, "I don't think so, Scooter....GET DOWN ON THE GROUND NOW!" and they had done so, then the situation is defused and you get a LEO to take it from there.

So "giving up the stuff" when you are not in immediate danger is one thing...you call the cops, call LoJack (you DO have LoJack on your vehicles, don't you, y'all???????? you should!!!!! :) :) :) ) and let them do their thing. If, though, it's a robbery rather than a theft, then you're in danger and it becomes a matter of self defense, not the "stuff".

My highly overinflated $.02. YMMV.

Springmom
 
For one, by the time they had the chance to stop the vehicle and jump out, he should of had the time to peddle the heck out of there in the other direction. For two, as a cyclist, if someone did that to me, and this is taking into consideration that the vehicle pulled to a stop by him, your post didn't specify if the vehicle were moving or already stopped, but I would consider someone coming to an abrupt stop next to me while I am riding as an assault already. They are in a 4,000 pound weapon and I am on an 18 pound piece of plastic (carbon fiber), by the time they got out of the car my hand would be on the butt of my gun, and if they came towards me, the gun would be out and ready. If the car was already parked and the guys jumped out as he went by, he should have been going fast enough to swerve around them and peddle away.
 
lcgriff . . .

To begin, let’s get an important fact straight: State statutes govern this situation; therefore, differing jurisdictions could have VERY diverse laws. Second, as a general rule appropriate defensive force can be employed to protect an innocent from a grave and immediate danger of severe injury or death; what is “appropriate”, “grave”, “immediate”, and so forth are questions for the “reasonable individuals” on the jury.
 
springmom said:
My CHL instructor (a Montgomery County constable, many years a LEO) taught us that you can indeed use deadly force to protect your property...then said that personally, he would not shoot someone who was, say, stealing his truck from his driveway. IOW, where there's no danger to him. The guy on the bike though, is in a different sort of situation. Whether he should have stopped or not, at the point where he is facing down the bad guys, it is more prudent to draw your weapon than to simply hand over the bike.
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Springmom is dead on with this point. Give a thug an inch and he'll generally take a mile. Give him your bike, and he might consider what else is within his power to take - your dignity or your life, perhaps. We have to remember that the psyche of the BG doesn't work the same way as that of a law-abiding citizen. They do not have much of a conscience, otherwise they would be doing something entirely else with their time. You can't reason with such a person. You have to speak in a language that he can understand, and to this end, drawing is more than prudent. It may back him off, but it goes without saying that one should never rely on the presentation of deadly force without also possessing the will to actually use that force, if necessary. Moreover, a person might not have more than a fraction of a second to decide if the presentation of deadly force has failed, and they must fire their weapon. Hesitation can cause an attacker to use your own weapon against you or any number of things.
 
MostToysWins,

Most folks on this site have not have to use thier weapon in selfdefence. Most of them are prepared though. Everybody here plan on using thier head before they shoot. The thing is, most folks here, unlike you, recognize the value of the presentation of a gun in diffusing a situation. It would be much better for all involved that, after you draw your weapon, the perps run away. Nobody would have been shot, you would have your belongings, the jury would not see you in court, etc.

If you draw your weapon, you must be prepared to use it. However, if you draw and you have the perps running and you shoot them, you have just used your weapon illegally. How would you know the limits of the perps attacking you? You cant read minds, can you? Just a little reminder that disparity of force is legal justification to shoot.

I am not here to burst your bubble. I just want to point out that in my opinion your view on drawing and shooting are flawed. You don't know when you will be confronted, neither do you dont know the intentions of criminals. I realize that you may not be prepared to defend your life with all availables at your disposal. I have never shot someone so I dont know firsthand how it would affect me, but if I have to, I will.

Be safe. Practice well. Develop good situational awareness skills.
 
+1 Springmom and +1 Stratus, too.


mosttoyswins said:
My PLAN is not to "give up my stuff" but to use my head to get out of the situation in a safe as manner as possible. If I have to pull my gun and drop someone I will, if giving them my car diffuses the situation than so be it.

I think responding with GUNS BLAZING in every situation as blackmind appears to think, is very irresponsible unless you are trained to do so (LEO), and if you are blackmind I apologize.
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I did not say that my response is planned to be "guns blazing"; further, I also recognize that my "on the forum" response would have to be tempered by reality if TSHTF for me personally. I have not yet been in that situation, and don't yearn to be. I remain vigilant, however, and I also remain willing to do what I have to, even if that is to end the life of a criminal attacker.

Protecting you bike or car with deadly force is COMPLETELY different than protecting your wife and child.
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That all depends on how you view it. It's a very personal thing. Yes, they're different, but still similar in many ways. My personal view is that an offense against my person is an offense against my person, whether they were trying to take something I had worked for, something I had lucked upon, or someone I love. Doesn't matter what it is, IT'S MINE, and if you're a criminal trying to take it by force, I feel that I MUST work to prevent you from doing that. It's one contest in which I do not feel willing to accept a loss. And I will NOT appease a criminal by giving him what he demands; I would not do this even IF I had a guarantee that he would walk away with the bicycle and not try for my wallet, jewelry (if I wore jewelry) or my life.


In every gun class I have attended, EVERY instructor and LEO has told me if you pull your weapon, you use it. You DO NOT flash it or draw it to use as a simply a deterrent, that is a good way to get killed. You NEVER BLUFF with your gun.
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Never bluff, sure. But drawing a gun does not mean having to fire it! :eek:
Are you really saying that as soon as it's drawn and aimed, the trigger must be pulled or the guy with the gun has done something wrong in drawing it? What of holding a guy for the cops because seeing a gun brought compliance out of him? What of sending him running, scared for his life because he hadn't counted on armed resistance. There are many circumstances in which you might find the gun is exactly a deterrent.

The main issue is, don't draw it unless you would be WILLING to fire it, should the need arise. It's not a matter of don't draw it unless you're GOING to fire it...


-blackmind
 
Points well taken blackmind and others.

If I pull my weapon I must be WILLING to use it, I do not HAVE to use it, I sort of meant it that way but I guess it came across wrong.

I appreciate everyones views. My personal experience with my father just puts me in a different mindset than most I suppose.

But I definately see the value in other opinions and that is why I have enjoyed posting on the forum immensely.

Good discussions are what teaches everyone about guns and situations where a gun may need to be used.

I just hope that some of you see some value in my opinions as well. :)

Thanks!
 
I hope to convey that I have compassion for what your dad went through after having to kill a criminal.

The thing, for me, is that he killed a criminal. It's not as though his attention wavered while driving and he struck a kid in an intersection or something. The life he took was FAR from innocent -- you said that the criminal had shot at your dad!

Granted, I have never had to do it, so it's all conjecture at this point... but... I would like to believe that the choice that a criminal makes that gets him[//i] shot by me is not going to cause me to live in despair and grief. I would like to think I could forget him like he was some deer I hit on the highway because it put itself in my way. I am far less likely to have compassion or sympathy for someone who made a choice -- a criminal one -- that caused him to forfeit his life to a good-doer.

-blackmind
 
most toyswins

Chamberlin "Peace in our time" or TR "speak softly,and carry a big stick"
Of course if shots prove unnecessary well and good; another posted it's not
the bicycle its the assault? Ichoose not to live in fear,or compromise my safety for some scum.
If I can't learn from another he fault must be mine.
 
Robbery vs Larceny

The state in which I live distinguishes between robbery (a crime against person and a felony) and larceny (a property crime). Defending yourself against a robbery may be done with whatever force is necessary.

And those that say that just the appearance of a gun may (in my case did) change the mind of those who would do you harm are absolutely right. Anything can happen but usually petty criminals count on no resistance and run when confronted. I did not shoot but I was prepared to do so.

John
Charlotte, NC
 
If I pull my weapon I must be WILLING to use it, I do not HAVE to use it, I sort of meant it that way but I guess it came across wrong.
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I was hoping that is what you meant. I personally have "drawn" on someone 3 times with no shots ever fired (thank god). I pretty much totally agree with your posts. There are some things that I wont use force over. They are not worth the risk. There are also many that are worth the risk.
 
Not worth the risk of what?

Do you mean "not worth the legal hassle?

Because if someone is confronting you to rob you of your property, I have news for you, you're already at risk!


I think it can be a grave mistake to treat the theft of a bicycle lightly, as though it is not a crime of violence against your person -- it is. And you don't know what someone who would stick you up for a bicycle might do to you once he sees you're a compliant victim and he won't get resistance out of you.

This is a robbery, not a theft. It's not finding your bicycle lock snapped and your bike gone; this is having it taken from you by force.

How some of you can treat this as though all you stand to lose is your bicycle is beyond me. :rolleyes:


-blackmind
 
Without a doubt

Yes! Two on one is called disparity of force. He would have certainly been justified in lethal force. Of course depending on the state he's in, he may have to attempt to escape first.:cool:
 
Some here have mentioned going off road with the bike and that might work if the person was riding a mountain bike or a cheap bike with heavy wheels but probably would not work too well with a bike that has high performance racing wheels. They hold up fine on most roads but going off road may cause the rider to crash and than they would get the bike anyways.

Just like with firearms high performance costs money.Racing bikes can cost several thousand dollars or more for some they cost more than their cars if they have one. Also for some this may be their transportation and therefore part of their livelyhood.

I am with the people that would meet force with force if it became neccesary and in this instance I feel it would be justified.
 
A different kind of danger in these situations

In my opinion if someone was to try to carjack me, I would do my best to floor it. If that option is not available, at the first millisecond I could I would put every round I could into center of mass. I say this because most people have their house and car keys on the same chain. If they leave with one, they now have both. You are left without a means of beating them to your residence, which they can ascertain from the vehicle's registration or insurance card. You will most likely be robbed of your wallet, cellphone, etc and the response time of a call to 911 will not be in your favor. So, by a confluence of circumstances, my entire family is at risk because of one individual who decided my life or theirs is worth a car.
 
I'm not knocking presentation, as long as its understood that thats the last option before deadly force. There is no going back from presentation.
 
I have no compunctions in dropping the predator types... :mad:

None at all...

And, I wouldn't need counseling to learn to live with me again... :D

None at all...
 
I have no compunctions in dropping the predator types...

None at all...

And, I wouldn't need counseling to learn to live with me again...

None at all...
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You know this because you have done it? A lot of soldiers thought the same before they had to do it, then after the event they realized how hard iit was.
 
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